I would not call them Casuals so much as Spectators.
Casuals will play and often develop into more in depth players over time.
Spectators will dabble... maybe. But will drift away the second the next bright shiny trendy comes along.

Problem is that casuals and spectators have been co-opted by the nuts and are increasingly not a demographic any sane company wants. WOTC is not sane and they want these nuts.

The other problem is that since 3e WOTC has been pushing that most players are casual players that do not play campaigns much past level 10. If even that.

Remember kids. WOTC is their own worst enemy.

Quote from: 3catcircus on December 17, 2021, 08:37:55 AM
How did we get a generation of mental defectives?  They didn't just develop mental health issues she to covid lockdowns, there have been these insane people for at least 5 years or more being prominent and being taken seriously.

Besides what others have said, also better diagnosis and treatment, better understanding of what counts for a mental health issue, and more understanding that seeking help for mental health isn't something to be ashamed of or stigmatized over.

Similar to "where were all these people before gluten/food allergies became a thing?"  Those people had poor quality of life and nobody could tell them why.  "How did we get a generation of mental defectives?"  We started paying attention to mental health instead of largely ignoring it.

Yeah, you are going to get people who think they have depression instead of just being sad or have anxiety instead of just not wanting to deal with hard things.  Still, more people are actually getting needed help than before.

Quote from: Omega on December 17, 2021, 04:06:26 PM
I would not call them Casuals so much as Spectators.
Casuals will play and often develop into more in depth players over time.
Spectators will dabble... maybe. But will drift away the second the next bright shiny trendy comes along.

Yes, I have a lot of "casual" players in my games, and always have.  None of them have ever even edged towards the level of "shallow" that describes the typical woke player.

I've been calling them shallow players for a long time.  They've always been with us.  Now they get more attention.   

Or to be more precise, they are shallow people that happen to be dabbling in gaming at the moment.

Quote from: Jam The MF on December 16, 2021, 06:22:54 PM
...
The hobby is now full of "Casuals".   Not a criticism of the hobby; just an observation, and assessment.  Many, many people latching on to the hobby now; are Casual fans of D&D.  They're not "all in".  They may also move on to something else, once they tire of D&D.

And while any RPG needs the influx of casual fans, it seems that current year D&D is starting to cater to the twitter fanbase, to the exclusion of the old fans that got them where they are.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 16, 2021, 06:39:42 PM
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Sadly, it's pretty common for this to happen when things get popular and go corporate. Hasbro wants to sell as much D&D branded junk as possible. They will spend their energy appealing to the typical D&D "fan." Not player. Not GM. Fan. ...

And this seems to be the direction they want to take D&D as a game a swell – they have become so enrapture with all their new fans that they now believe that they no longer need the old ones.

4e did some dumb marketing and insulted 3e fans by talking up how much "better" 4e was going to be. But they still fundamentally wanted everyone to buy into 4e.

Right now, the 5e devs seem more than happy to completely jettison all the 'old guard' fans they brought back with the release of 5e. In Fact they seem to actively want them to leave so that they do not offend any of the new cool kids that are just now starting to play D&D because they are only now making it more "inclusive"...

Every RPG needs new players to grow the game and to generate the new blood that will be the players and GM's of the future.

We have seen RPG's dwindle into shells to their former selves by only listening to their hardcore fanbases, like GURPS and HERO.

We will see going forward how a game does by listening only to their new casual players, with game devs that believe twitter is representative of their entire customer base.

Quote from: LouProsperi on December 17, 2021, 02:24:51 PM
...
One of the biggest challenges I have with Pundit is his belief that if you play RPGs differently than he does you're doing it "wrong".  IMO, of the best things about RPGs is that outside of using/adjudicating the rules incorrectly, there is no "wrong" way to play RPGs.

While there are several ways to RPG right.

You can absolutely RPG wrong.

The rise and fall of the storygame movement is proof of what happens when you try to make roleplaying all about the 'story'.

In the context of Pundits comments; It is like playing a game of chess according to the traditional rules, verses people playing a game of "chess" where around moves 5-10 everyone just gets up and leaves. They then run around talking about the great game of "chess" that they just played.

Technically still "chess", but they are literally playing it wrong.

They are robbing themselves of the experience you get playing chess the way that it was intended to be.

Whatever the case is with 5e players, the pundit is absolutely set in his ways and sees any other play except the one he likes that moment to be wrong.
Im not a storygamer, but to say it has 'fallen' is a phyric celebration over a community that called you names a decade ago.

There is no 'Wrong' way to play pretend with your friends. It can lead to after-effects but to say there is 'wrong' or 'right' is just arrogance.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 17, 2021, 04:59:58 PM
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Im not a storygamer, but to say it has 'fallen' is a phyric celebration over a community that called you names a decade ago.

The entire premise of storygames was that they were going to "fix" RPGs.

Arrogance like that deserves all the dead horse beating that they get.

I've played some storygames back in the day. They were interesting for what they were. But they were a solution in search of a problem.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 17, 2021, 04:59:58 PM
There is no 'Wrong' way to play pretend with your friends. It can lead to after-effects but to say there is 'wrong' or 'right' is just arrogance.

RPG's are not just playing 'Pretend'.

There is no wrong way to have fun with your friends.

But games with rules have expected modes of play, and can be played wrong.

You can have fun playing them wrong.

I will neve dispute someone's claims of having a good time.

Doesn't change the fact that they are being played wrong.

Basing future design decisions on the trend of people that can't keep a game of D&D going for more than 6 sessions will not end well.

Quote from: LouProsperi on December 17, 2021, 02:24:51 PM
One of the biggest challenges I have with Pundit is his belief that if you play RPGs differently than he does you're doing it "wrong".  IMO, of the best things about RPGs is that outside of using/adjudicating the rules incorrectly, there is no "wrong" way to play RPGs.


Lou Prosperi

Welcome to the Thunderdome, Lou! Always loved your work on Earthdawn!

It's only this way because currently 5e is the edition du jour.

Each succeeding edition garnered more players - which inevitably invites casuals (this is true of anything that gains in popularity). The problem is when oversaturation of a given view that is lower in quality due to the democratization of the thing in question, in this case GMs new to the hobby that haven't developed those skills for advanced and deeper gameplay, become the defacto market that gets catered to.

I can steel-man this in a cynical way by simply pointing out: Why produce goods for a captive audience like old-school gamers when they're likely going to buy my stuff anyhow? See the 5e players here that complain about how WotC is destroying the brand (and hobby) yet still purchase WotC product.

Meanwhile, relative noobs to the hobby come to forums like this, thinking they know it all, and take umbrage at hearing Old Timers like us poo-pooing what passes for "content" these days - while we chuckle at decades worth of our own stuff, some of which might even be published, which noobs could give a flying shit about because they think they know it all (and who cares about your published shit - it's not 5e D&D therefore it's probably garbage, right?).

Note: I'm not telling anyone how to play their RPG's. I'm pointing out the dynamics in play. Pundit is right on the money on this. I honestly don't care if Casual People accuse me of <X> because I don't do anything casually. As far as I'm concerned, "You do you, filthy casual." I don't owe anyone respect for pretending some deluded notion that tries to claim a deep multi-year-long campaign is the same as an Adventure Path or 5-session series of combat scenarios is the same thing.

I also don't demand respect for my time in the GM saddle. I'll let my games speak for themselves. Just like I'm a noob at figure painting, I'm not going to pretend my journeyman-quality figures are equal to Squidmar's just because I'm doing my thing. But I certainly am not going to dismiss his opinions on HOW TO DO IT BETTER because he's been at it a lot longer than me. <--- that's generally how I approach things.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 17, 2021, 05:15:59 PMArrogance like that deserves all the dead horse beating that they get.

It really doesn't. I don't care if that bully from 6th grade home economics really did intend to disfigure your face, bringing him up again a decade later just makes you obsessed.

QuoteRPG's are not just playing 'Pretend'.

And their posable action collectors kits, not paintable modeling action figures!
Those filthy comic book readers are demanding the same level of clout as us: chad graphic novel thinkers!

Quote from: tenbones on December 17, 2021, 03:15:15 PM

Quote from: LouProsperi on December 17, 2021, 02:24:51 PM
I agree there is a difference in experience between a short campaign (5-6 sessions) and a long extensive campaign in which the PCs contribute to the development of the world, but they're both "real" RPG experiences.

Wait a second. Let's not conflate that just because two different groups engage in the same thing they're the qualitatively the same. This is a post-modern malfunction of conflating lesser upwards, and greater downwards to make zero distinctions between them, for the rhetorical claim to be contrary to someone with a clearly more nuanced opinion.

I use this analogy all the time - I run in-depth games. I'm trying to run MLB Baseball. I don't want players that just want to play little-league T-ball with zero ambition to want more. Yes they're both "baseball" - but they are very different games.

That someone "likes" T-ball is not the issue. The issue is that "T-ball" is not representative of "quality" play. If you want to debate "quality" that's fair - lets absolutely do so, but let's not pretend that there is no distinction between what is being discussed.

I wouldn't say that heavier commitment of long-term play is the same thing as overall quality. There are quality short campaigns and one-shots, and there are quality long campaigns. Short campaigns and one-shots have always been a part of the D&D tradition. Many of the early AD&D modules were adapted from tournament play at conventions. Around 1980 when D&D had its first boom in popularity, there was the same phenomenon of casual players.

I'd draw a parallel to board games. Some board games take hours or even days to complete. They can get very involved. There are also many shorter board games that can be played casually with family and friends. I don't think that more involved board games are inherently higher quality. They're just different.

Personally, my role-playing gaming has gone back and forth over my life - especially because of my life circumstances. When I was a new parent or when I was going through divorce, I moved into a more casual gaming mode. I've had some terrific games like that, and made some great friends who wouldn't be able to commit to an in-depth multi-year campaign. I also have had some great short games and one-shots, like my tradition of convention games. I've played and run a lot of great games at local conventions, but those are generally one-shots. Even with committed gamers, I've also had periods of more "beer and pretzel" gaming where we may play for a long time - but we don't have notebooks full of detailed background and documented episodes.

Quote from: Manic Modron on December 17, 2021, 04:27:08 PM

Quote from: 3catcircus on December 17, 2021, 08:37:55 AM
How did we get a generation of mental defectives?  They didn't just develop mental health issues she to covid lockdowns, there have been these insane people for at least 5 years or more being prominent and being taken seriously.

Besides what others have said, also better diagnosis and treatment, better understanding of what counts for a mental health issue, and more understanding that seeking help for mental health isn't something to be ashamed of or stigmatized over.

Similar to "where were all these people before gluten/food allergies became a thing?"  Those people had poor quality of life and nobody could tell them why.  "How did we get a generation of mental defectives?"  We started paying attention to mental health instead of largely ignoring it.

Yeah, you are going to get people who think they have depression instead of just being sad or have anxiety instead of just not wanting to deal with hard things.  Still, more people are actually getting needed help than before.

Totally missing the point.  It's self-induced mental illness. Older generations of D&D players and DMs were considered misfits and wierdos but managed to grow into adulthood being functional members of society (mostly). Now, the current crop of players seems to have a series of unseen ailments that allows them to only complain about the lack of wokeness in RPGs, complain about how unfair law-abiding citizens are to BLM grifters and antifa thugs, and complain about how it's the patriarchy (not their $100k degrees in worthless subjects ) that is what is keeping them from obtaining gainful employment.  Certainly no time to go get a job or get some exercise or otherwise improves their lot in life.

In other words - lack of personal responsibility on their part to do *anything* to improve their lives - as if they actually derive joy from being professional victims.

Quote from: 3catcircus on December 17, 2021, 07:07:11 PM

Quote from: Manic Modron on December 17, 2021, 04:27:08 PM
Besides what others have said, also better diagnosis and treatment, better understanding of what counts for a mental health issue, and more understanding that seeking help for mental health isn't something to be ashamed of or stigmatized over.

Similar to "where were all these people before gluten/food allergies became a thing?"  Those people had poor quality of life and nobody could tell them why.  "How did we get a generation of mental defectives?"  We started paying attention to mental health instead of largely ignoring it.

Yeah, you are going to get people who think they have depression instead of just being sad or have anxiety instead of just not wanting to deal with hard things.  Still, more people are actually getting needed help than before.

Totally missing the point.  It's self-induced mental illness. Older generations of D&D players and DMs were considered misfits and wierdos but managed to grow into adulthood being functional members of society (mostly). Now, the current crop of players seems to have a series of unseen ailments that allows them to only complain about the lack of wokeness in RPGs, complain about how unfair law-abiding citizens are to BLM grifters and antifa thugs, and complain about how it's the patriarchy (not their $100k degrees in worthless subjects ) that is what is keeping them from obtaining gainful employment.  Certainly no time to go get a job or get some exercise or otherwise improves their lot in life.

In other words - lack of personal responsibility on their part to do *anything* to improve their lives - as if they actually derive joy from being professional victims.

People have been saying similar about D&D players for decades. The Knights of the Dinner Table comic started in 1990, and it had stereotypes of adult D&D players that they were mostly unable to hold down a decent job and mentally unbalanced. I've also been attending role-playing conventions since the late 1980s, and I find that while some stereotypes might be superficially true - they're generally way off base. I'd agree that gamers tend not to focus on their careers -- career-focused people have networking hobbies more like Toastmaster or golf. And ​there has always been a subset of role-players who are unsuccessful career-wise, but I don't think they differ from the overall population that way.

That goes just as much for the current crop of players. I've been going to conventions in the SF Bay area for twenty-odd years - which is woke central, and while they might have different tastes and foibles, in socio-economic terms they seem to be in the same ballpark as Gen Con attendees. Some have successful tech jobs, some are struggling, some have a variety of other work.

---

On mental illness in general - I do think that mental illness is objectively getting worse along some lines. In the U.S., we have been seeing higher rates of alcoholism, overdose deaths, and suicides over the last two decades. However, these don't seem correlated to either political leaning. New York and New Jersey have the lowest suicide rates, while California and Texas are similar. The highest are in Nevada, New Mexico, and Montana.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 17, 2021, 04:56:44 PM

Quote from: LouProsperi on December 17, 2021, 02:24:51 PM
...
One of the biggest challenges I have with Pundit is his belief that if you play RPGs differently than he does you're doing it "wrong".  IMO, of the best things about RPGs is that outside of using/adjudicating the rules incorrectly, there is no "wrong" way to play RPGs.

While there are several ways to RPG right.

You can absolutely RPG wrong.

The rise and fall of the storygame movement is proof of what happens when you try to make roleplaying all about the 'story'.

In the context of Pundits comments; It is like playing a game of chess according to the traditional rules, verses people playing a game of "chess" where around moves 5-10 everyone just gets up and leaves. They then run around talking about the great game of "chess" that they just played.

Technically still "chess", but they are literally playing it wrong.

They are robbing themselves of the experience you get playing chess the way that it was intended to be.

That's not a strong enough analogy.

It's more like someone claiming to be a "world traveler" because they spent a weekend in an all-inclusive resort in Cabo once, versus someone who spent two years living in India.

Oh look, Pundit resorts to the Bad Wrong Fun argument. Doesn't matter if you're enjoying playing D&D your way, if you're not playing his way you're not playing "real" D&D and therefore are not having the fun you think you're having.

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 17, 2021, 10:26:48 PMIt's more like someone claiming to be a "world traveler" because they spent a weekend in an all-inclusive resort in Cabo once, versus someone who spent two years living in India.

Except its two homeless people arguing about which poster they slept under last night makes the more of a 'world traveller'.

Games of pretend with no win condition and flexible rules is the dumbest things to be arguing about in terms of authenticity.
I may not like 5e, but I don't play along with this stupid 'authenticity' idea.