To be fair. The Dutch were a plague on what feels like every other native culture they came across. But so were most of the other seagoing powers of the time.

Quote from: SHARK on July 07, 2024, 09:54:40 PMThe witches were burned alive at the stake, and most of the Goblins and Orcs were slaughtered. Some of the Orcs and Ogres that survived, were taken prisoner, and held under guard in nearby, improvised stockade camps.

The young Ogres, Orcs, and Goblins were taken away from their surviving families, and taken away to be educated properly in civilization and proper religion. The adult members of their families are being held in these stockade camps, and sent out on work parties, performing hard labour in farming, road-building, mining, and ditch-digging.

Interesting. In all of the D&D games I've seen, the PCs either killed or let go of non-combatant humanoids. You use the passive voice with the education program -- who ran these re-education centers for humanoids? Was it something new the PCs set up? Or had it been in place for a while? If the latter, are there civilized ogres mixed into human/demi-human society?

Late to the party here, but to echo everyone, that sounds like an awesome adventure. IF you were near NE OK I'd beg a place at the table at least once in a while.

Like you I believe in absolute in the good evil etc spectrum. There are some things or people that will kill you given the chance and with goblins eat you after (or before) you are dead. No peaceful coexistence. The danger is with humans you do not KNOW for sure where they are on the spectrum (unlike the goblin or the witches from your example).

That said I do also like the idea of redemption . One of my favorite NPCs from back in the day was a knight from a Dragon article (based on Historic Medieval myths on Roland etc) that was raised a heathen barbarian, but captured as a your and raised in a lords castle and learned to be a civilized knight. However, in times of stress he would revert back to barbarian and go into berserker mode and drop his knightly sword and pick up a club and go to town on ALL around him.

With that I have no problem spearing anyone and attempting to redeem them. Also let my groups know that what goes around comes around. If you murder hobo everything and kill everything even after they drop their weapons and surrender, then when they party is on the losing end they WILL be executed without hesitation. However, if they let even lowly defeated goblins sneak off after being defeated (with a warning that if they are seen here again they will die), word gets out that monsters do not have to fight to the death, and may yield, so the fights are not as hard, and if defeated they party will not be murdered themselves.

Now my example of meeting a modern liberal gamer. I was at one of my work stops a few months ago (I go to a different place each day) and noticed one of the guys at the reception desk of the VA Med Clinic had all kinds of pins on his ID lanyard. One was the D&D Dragon & and without thinking said 'Oh you're a gamer, I didn't realize it. I game too' . I should have known to keep my mouth shut ... He is a nice enough guy. Friendly etc, but very modern/post-modern. I had a chance to mention I play Castles and Crusaders and Traveller, but the rest of the 5-10 min conversation was him talking about his DM Group Campaign. By the time it was over I knew there was NO way I'd fit at their table and that despite sharing a common hobby, we spoke complexly different gaming language.

So, your campaign was realistic?  That's a hate crime dood

Quote from: SHARK on July 07, 2024, 09:54:40 PMThe young Ogres, Orcs, and Goblins were taken away from their surviving families, and taken away to be educated properly in civilization and proper religion.

That's a mistake.
Don't forget what Gary said, "Nits make lice".

Cant people realize that this is a fantasy world, and people are playing characters that are not them, but people who exist in a fantasy world that doesn't exist, and the WHOLLY DIFFERENT CULTURE than the real world!  And people like her are why people want to escape the real world once in a while?

It is ROLE-PLAYING.  You're acting as people who are not like your own self.  As such, these characters we play may do things that we won't.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2024, 01:43:22 AMI think your players (and maybe you too) are going soft:

The only good Goblin, Orc, Ogre, Witch, etc is a dead one.

Goddamn right! 'They're Ork children! You can't kill them!'

Watch me, bitch. And I will be doing civilization a favor by ridding it of another monster that would grow up to plague it.

This is why I think including B2 as the 'intro' adventure for most of Moldvay Basic's run was a misstep--it required groups to engage with those questions from the start, instead of letting them get into it as they grew more familiar with the game.

Quote from: Omega on July 08, 2024, 06:30:22 PMTo be fair. The Dutch were a plague on what feels like every other native culture they came across. But so were most of the other seagoing powers of the time.

Fair enough, but honestly I'd rather be subjugated into wearing wooden shoes than hacked into pieces with a machete and eaten.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 08, 2024, 09:55:25 PMThis is why I think including B2 as the 'intro' adventure for most of Moldvay Basic's run was a misstep--it required groups to engage with those questions from the start, instead of letting them get into it as they grew more familiar with the game.

I think this is a prime example of reality not fitting with the "current narrative". People talk about the morality behind killing baby orcs NOW, but I cannot ever remember something like this coming up in any game I ever played. Orcs? Evil bastards, says so right in the Monster Manual, so kill away.

The baby orcs debate certainly raged in APAs and letter columns back in the day.  B2 can be 'fixed' by making it a military outpost with no non-combatants present.  If I was a photoshop/AI guy I could see doing a Little Orcs On the Prairie intro for The Keep On the Borderlands.

I figure baby orcs are ambulatory and vicious with-in a few hours of birth.  They're kept in individual play pens like Siamese fighting fish.  They only start to be sociable after a year of careful incentives and punishments. Older orcs might be rehabilitated but young orcs are like the Tazmanian Devil.  HD 1/2, AC 7, Claw / Claw / Bite 1-2, 1-2, 1-3.  It's a myth that they gnaw their way out of the womb but after than look out.  After about a year (2 hp+) they develop a "MINE" bite attack that automatically grapples if it hits.

Quote from: jhkim on July 08, 2024, 07:50:27 PM

Quote from: SHARK on July 07, 2024, 09:54:40 PMThe witches were burned alive at the stake, and most of the Goblins and Orcs were slaughtered. Some of the Orcs and Ogres that survived, were taken prisoner, and held under guard in nearby, improvised stockade camps.

The young Ogres, Orcs, and Goblins were taken away from their surviving families, and taken away to be educated properly in civilization and proper religion. The adult members of their families are being held in these stockade camps, and sent out on work parties, performing hard labour in farming, road-building, mining, and ditch-digging.

Interesting. In all of the D&D games I've seen, the PCs either killed or let go of non-combatant humanoids. You use the passive voice with the education program -- who ran these re-education centers for humanoids? Was it something new the PCs set up? Or had it been in place for a while? If the latter, are there civilized ogres mixed into human/demi-human society?

Well, Jhkim, the players came up with the idea of coordinating with several local churches, the nearby town's Militia Commander, and a prominent merchant that owns a local logging and timber company. An NPC henchman, a Ranger named Gregori Chemikov, mentioned that in a land to the west, Uggarya, the peoples there have some history and experience with living amongst several Ogre tribes that have been converted from savagery, and have become generally loyal members of the local communities. Thus, the group could readily imagine the benefits of having friendly Ogres as allies, though thinking about Goblins and Orcs took them awhile to hash out, and eventually decided that giving them a chance to gain redemption was worthwhile. The player playing the character, Ivan Dranyev, a Paladin serving the Church of Dharyaan, further suggested that, if the various humanoids renege on their pledges, and fail to show good faith on their road to redemption--the consequences can be very severe, and result in them all being swiftly executed. Thus resolved, the Players were agreed that such an attempt at redeeming the savage humanoids that they had captured, was a worthwhile endeavor.

The Players then traveled to the nearby estate of the Boyar Varslav Sarghev, and sought his counsel, as well as suggesting that they would arrange for considerable profits being directed to him, in exchange for his help and assistance. The Boyar Varslav Sarghev liked the group's thinking, manners, and demeanor, and agreed to send 300 of his warriors, led by a dozen members of his Druzhina, and 150 professional craftsmen and workers to help build things, as well as assist in supervising and training the humanoids. One of the players is a follower of the Pagan Goddess, Mokosh, and was able to gain the support of the local Temple of Mokosh for their proposed project. Furthermore, the local Church of Dharyaan did not want to be outdone or embarrassed by the efforts of the Temple of Mokosh, so they, too, agreed to assist the Players with this unusual project.

The local town, Khamby Rogg, is ruled by the Boyar Gleb Zheidenov, though is governed by a Veche. The Boyar Gleb Zheidenov and the Khamby Rogg Veche had already had prior experience with working with the Player group, and was well-acquainted with them from a series of prior missions and adventures. The Khamby Rogg Veche and Boyar Gleb Zheidenov had both sponsored great feasts in honour of the Player group and had rewarded them well for their heroism and service in protecting the Town of Khamby Rogg. The town of Khamby Rogg agreed to provide some engineers from the Engineer's Guild, as well as some skilled professional craftsmen, workers, and labourers, to assist in the project. Of course, the Boyar Gleb Zheidenov, and the town's Militia Commander, Yuri Golub, have agreed to assist with some 200 soldiers and 100 Militia Archers in providing military protection and supervision, especially of the stockade encampments that hold the adult humanoids that surrendered during the earlier operations that cleared the dungeon complex.

The dungeon complex, the dungeon known locally as Zhenya Grove, rests amidst an old, dense section of rugged forest that embraces a range of hills--known as the Yemba Hills--overlooks the Ghenya River. The Ghenya River flows southwards and eastwards, into the larger forest, known as the Chomyu. The Chomyu Forest stretches for several hundred miles and is a vast wilderness. The Chomyu is known, however, to also be the home of the Nyomoya, a powerful tribe of barbarian humans that are zealous worshippers of the Pagan God, Perun. The Chomyu also embraces the Vandra Hills, which are rumoured to hold deep veins of fine silver. The Chomyu Forest is also known to be the home of the Gyomyegg Centaurs, which the Boyar Gleb Zheidenov hopes to secure a peace treaty with, as well as important trade agreements. Local tribal legends maintain that the Chomyu is the ancient location of the "Vale of Maiden's Laughter"--said to be an enchanted forest vale, sacred to Zorya, the Goddess of the Dawn. Rumours swirl about the folklore of the "Seven Sisters of Madeva" living in the forest. The "Seven Sisters of Madeva" are believed to be seven holy Gamayun women. Gamayun are large, magical bird women, typically having some brilliant colour, and possessing great wisdom, knowledge, and power. Legends also persist of a mysterious artifact, known as "Zorya's Embrace" being somewhere within the ancient forest. Legends are unclear, however, claiming that "Zorya's Embrace" is a majestic and ancient staff, while other legends insist that "Zorya's Embrace" is a gigantic, glittering sword of breathtaking power. Some legends describe "Zorya's Embrace" being a shimmering and gorgeous throne of precious jewels, gold, and illuminated by burning fragments of stars, blessed by the Goddess, Zorya. All of this knowledge and lore has many individuals amidst Khamby Rogg extremely excited and in wondrous awe of the potential glory for any heroes, and for any wondrous discoveries that may be uncovered by strong exploration of the region.

So, the players having defeated the evil Witches of Zhenya's Grove, and crushed the various groups of humanoids, has opened up many new opportunities and potentials.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Lurker on July 08, 2024, 08:02:24 PMLate to the party here, but to echo everyone, that sounds like an awesome adventure. IF you were near NE OK I'd beg a place at the table at least once in a while.

Like you I believe in absolute in the good evil etc spectrum. There are some things or people that will kill you given the chance and with goblins eat you after (or before) you are dead. No peaceful coexistence. The danger is with humans you do not KNOW for sure where they are on the spectrum (unlike the goblin or the witches from your example).

That said I do also like the idea of redemption . One of my favorite NPCs from back in the day was a knight from a Dragon article (based on Historic Medieval myths on Roland etc) that was raised a heathen barbarian, but captured as a your and raised in a lords castle and learned to be a civilized knight. However, in times of stress he would revert back to barbarian and go into berserker mode and drop his knightly sword and pick up a club and go to town on ALL around him.

With that I have no problem spearing anyone and attempting to redeem them. Also let my groups know that what goes around comes around. If you murder hobo everything and kill everything even after they drop their weapons and surrender, then when they party is on the losing end they WILL be executed without hesitation. However, if they let even lowly defeated goblins sneak off after being defeated (with a warning that if they are seen here again they will die), word gets out that monsters do not have to fight to the death, and may yield, so the fights are not as hard, and if defeated they party will not be murdered themselves.

Now my example of meeting a modern liberal gamer. I was at one of my work stops a few months ago (I go to a different place each day) and noticed one of the guys at the reception desk of the VA Med Clinic had all kinds of pins on his ID lanyard. One was the D&D Dragon & and without thinking said 'Oh you're a gamer, I didn't realize it. I game too' . I should have known to keep my mouth shut ... He is a nice enough guy. Friendly etc, but very modern/post-modern. I had a chance to mention I play Castles and Crusaders and Traveller, but the rest of the 5-10 min conversation was him talking about his DM Group Campaign. By the time it was over I knew there was NO way I'd fit at their table and that despite sharing a common hobby, we spoke complexly different gaming language.

Greetings!

Yeah, Lurker! Gaming with you would be awesome!!!

And yes, I always seek to set in motion a variety of at least *potential* consequences for *whatever* kinds of actions or behavior undertaken by the Player Characters. That also goes for various NPC's as well. Honestly, yes, I agree. There are both definite advantages and *downsides* to embracing the "Murderhobo" approach, just as there is with seeking redemption. I like it, because there *are* definite benefits to each approach--and the downsides--and that makes contemplating such approaches so interesting and tempting. Asking these kinds of questions is almost always useful, and provides endless entertainment, drama, and opportunities at the table, in my view.

Yeah, I often get the sense that Woke gamers really *do* speak an entirely different language. Like my friend Spinachcat says, we should embrace a "Gaming Hobby Divorce"--on down the line, for our game groups, our conventions, the game companies that we patronize, everything. I really do suspect that many Woke gamers actually do play in Waterdeep Magical Coffee Shops, make "Hot Messes" of themselves in weird forest parties, and attend gay rainbow proms in their weird, utopian, Woke fantasy cities. It isn't just a figment of our hate-filled imaginations, either--I have watched some of Connie Chang's livestream plays, amongst other Woke gamers, and their games resemble nothing like the games I run or play in. Sad, my friend, but it is true. Woke gamers really do believe different things, and that effects everything in life--including how they play and run their games.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I tend to assume that anyone who uses the word "colonialism" this way is demonstrating themselves to be a moral and historical simpleton, and can therefore safely be disregarded.

That said, for some reason I feel the urge to be the mandatory needless contrarian on this thread, so here goes:

It's a bit weird to see comments declaring that "orcs and goblins are X", as if it was a scientific fact, when surely it's contingent on the game and setting being run. As the WoW thread went into in detail, the notion that orcs are sentient free-willed creatures and not necessarily essentially evil is now over 20 years old and possibly the majority view in recent fantasy projects, so a degree of confusion is perhaps forgivable.

I think I've said this elsewhere, but this is a part of why I rarely use orcs in my games. The standard reference points that players have for them are too inconsistent for me to rely on what assumptions they'll bring into the game. I do use goblins quite a lot, but I run them more neutrally, as creatures which tend towards being malicious, but are fully capable of being bargained or reasoned with. Oddly I think goblins have been more consistently portrayed across history, possibly because they have more of a folkloric basis instead of being purely an invention of fantasy authors.

I'm actually sympathetic to someone not being comfortable with their supposedly heroic character slaughtering helpless infants of any race. It's a pretty reliable general rule that a hero does not execute the defenseless in cold blood. In SHARK's example, the mere fact that re-education of orc children is possible is prima facie evidence that the orc race's villainy is in some respect cultural, and that the children are therefore innocent and sparing them is the right thing to do.

I think you can make slaughtering the spawn of evil races morally justifiable, but you have to make them truly inhuman. Either the race has to be physiologically/psychologically incapable of not being evil (e.g. Goblin Slayer's goblins), or they have to be evil on a metaphysical level where they don't truly possess free will (e.g. Demons). It's probably also advisable to contrive their biology in such a way that they don't ever go through a phase of being "children" (e.g., Warhammer's Orks). But if you make their evil nature either cultural or due to the machinations of some outside power (e.g., evil gods), you inevitably open up some moral questions which are going to make things awkward.

Quote from: Brad on July 08, 2024, 10:31:48 PMI think this is a prime example of reality not fitting with the "current narrative". People talk about the morality behind killing baby orcs NOW, but I cannot ever remember something like this coming up in any game I ever played. Orcs? Evil bastards, says so right in the Monster Manual, so kill away.

The MM or DMG notes that the monsters alignment is just for the ones you most often meet
And the OD&D Alignment chart places orcs as Neutral or Chaotic.

The families in b2 are not there to kill. They are also not there to not kill. Its up to the players to figure out what to do. And clever PCs could negotiate or trick their way right through them.

It is not set in stone that you must kill everything not that you have to spare everything. Play it as it plays out. Reactions could tilt things wildly.

Quote from: David Johansen on July 08, 2024, 08:07:46 PMSo, your campaign was realistic?  That's a hate crime dood

Greetings!

*Laughing* Yeah, David! I know, I know. I have sinned terribly by running a game with realism in it! Such a savage hate crime!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK