Greetings!
At a recent game I ran at my local game store, one of the group member's associates--a young woman--provided some entertaining commentary in regards to my campaign. The group of player characters had just been victorious in clearing out a dungeon complex that was full of Ogres, Goblins, and Orcs. The dark, evil humanoids had been led by a group of evil, Pagan Witches. Some of the witches had managed to escape, while some were killed in the fighting. Three of the evil witches had been captured by the party, who had decided to burn the witches at the stake. The witches were burned alive at the stake, and most of the Goblins and Orcs were slaughtered. Some of the Orcs and Ogres that survived, were taken prisoner, and held under guard in nearby, improvised stockade camps.
The young Ogres, Orcs, and Goblins were taken away from their surviving families, and taken away to be educated properly in civilization and proper religion. The adult members of their families are being held in these stockade camps, and sent out on work parties, performing hard labour in farming, road-building, mining, and ditch-digging.
Meanwhile, the dungeon complex has been cleaned out, fortified, and restocked with weapons and supplies, and some new surface buildings, as well as subterranean works, to build the place up into a proper armed stronghold and trading post for future forays into the dark wilderness.
When one of the members was talking to his woman associate--she is a gamer, though not a member of the group at my table--she said that "This campaign seems full of hatred, racism, misogyny, and colonialism!"
*Laughing* Ahh, well, it seemed to me that the group of Player Characters were involved in fighting against evil forces, forces of darkness and savagery, and seeking to make the area safe for civilized people.
I told her, "What do you suppose the Ogres, Orcs, and Goblins, and the Witches, would have done to the player group and the local community if they had been victorious?"
Yes, there really are gamers out there that cheer for the villains! It is mind-boggling, to me. What the fuck is wrong with these people?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
She's a cunt. If she's married, its the lesbian death bed and she's probably the one beating her wife. She can only exist in todays society due to the dead men she and her freaks walk on every day and spit on whenever they can. Times are getting tough, these freaks are going to end up starving to death due to famine or will die off in a riot. Nothing of worth will be lost.
/soapbox
The point of monster races are to be monsters. This is a bit childish, but it makes it easy to be moral when the enemy truly are despicable.
That's why bad guys need to be bad. It's easy to kill orcs when they eat people.
I think your players (and maybe you too) are going soft:
The only good Goblin, Orc, Ogre, Witch, etc is a dead one.
Quote from: SHARK on July 07, 2024, 09:54:40 PMWhen one of the members was talking to his woman associate--she is a gamer, though not a member of the group at my table--she said that "This campaign seems full of hatred, racism, misogyny, and colonialism!"
I would say "Is there room for one more at your table? That sounds like a game I would love to play!"
Sounds like a cool campaign to me. Getting loot and killing bad guys are what its all about. I don't play D&D to hang out at Starbucks and NOT go on adventures. These people are only gaming in order to shit in someone else's bed.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on July 07, 2024, 10:41:55 PMShe's a cunt. If she's married, its the lesbian death bed and she's probably the one beating her wife. She can only exist in todays society due to the dead men she and her freaks walk on every day and spit on whenever they can. Times are getting tough, these freaks are going to end up starving to death due to famine or will die off in a riot. Nothing of worth will be lost.
/soapbox
Greetings!
Yeah, she is not a lesbian, but damn, she sure hits a good many of the Liberal, Woke checkboxes. Kinda plump, kinda mousy, glasses, kinda intellectual, kinda educated, some tats, some piercings, and full Woke retard.
Her hair is normal coloured though! *Laughing*
Yeah, evidently she was a member of a different group that one of my players was also a member of before joining my table, so that is how he came into association with this woman.
She will definitely be suffering when a crisis comes for sure. She also brings in lattes from Starbucks all the time, too.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: weirdguy564 on July 07, 2024, 10:45:35 PMThe point of monster races are to be monsters. This is a bit childish, but it makes it easy to be moral when the enemy truly are despicable.
That's why bad guys need to be bad. It's easy to kill orcs when they eat people.
Greetings!
Yeah, I agree entirely, Weirdguy564!
I admit, however, that yes, I am a great believer in absolute values, Good and Evil, and in campaigns, often encourage a more harsh and brutal approach to life, relationships, and especially warfare--certainly an approach that is distinctly pre-Enlightenment and very much Pre-Modern in nature, I do occasionally allow for the possibility of redemption, or encountering various members of Evil Races that may, with some empathy, and often hard work and effort--can actually function as Non-Evil savages and be relatively "Civilized."
So, while there are some members of the group that wanted to just kill them all--there were also members that argued that the group should be merciful to the survivors, and that the group should invest some efforts into redeeming such creatures.
Of course, me being the helpful DM, I have reasonably likeable NPC's that line up with *both sides* of such arguments. *Laughing* Which, while perhaps less than helpful, is nonetheless entertaining for everyone at the table. *Laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Crusader X on July 08, 2024, 06:26:32 AMQuote from: SHARK on July 07, 2024, 09:54:40 PMWhen one of the members was talking to his woman associate--she is a gamer, though not a member of the group at my table--she said that "This campaign seems full of hatred, racism, misogyny, and colonialism!"
I would say "Is there room for one more at your table? That sounds like a game I would love to play!"
Greetings!
Outstanding, my friend! Yes, you would be very welcome!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2024, 01:43:22 AMI think your players (and maybe you too) are going soft:
The only good Goblin, Orc, Ogre, Witch, etc is a dead one.
Greetings!
Yes, my friend, I am inclined to agree. In the campaign, as DM, I of course provide NPC's that support both killing them all--and those that argue for the merits of sparing the surviving adults and especially the young humanoids.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Exploderwizard on July 08, 2024, 07:34:09 AMSounds like a cool campaign to me. Getting loot and killing bad guys are what its all about. I don't play D&D to hang out at Starbucks and NOT go on adventures. These people are only gaming in order to shit in someone else's bed.
Greetings!
*LAUGHING* So true, Exploderwizard! Yes, my friend, the woman in question--the Woke woman gamer--also *loves* going to Starbucks all the time. She likes to argue for the player characters hanging out in coffee shops and going to Ren Faire parties in the forest, where everyone can dance with the elves and "get their freak on".
I described various NPC allies of the Player Group as providing strict discipline and teaching to a large group of young Ogres in a Ogre Farming Camp--and two of the Players are involved in this project--and the Woke gamer woman said that, right there, was a HUGE example of my campaign "Platforming Colonialism."
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
QuoteI told her, "What do you suppose the Ogres, Orcs, and Goblins, and the Witches, would have done to the player group and the local community if they had been victorious?"
Had the Witches won, they would have castrated all the Human, Male Fighters. They would have founded a "Wizard's School" that everyone's children would be forced to atend, and molested the students. They would have replaced all the guild professionals with orcs and ogres, and there would be a Starbucks on every corner.
The next Campaign would culminate with a gay prom.
Have some fun with the cunt. Have Orcroast coffee open up in the country. Have the citizenry love it. Have them make money, lots of money. Have the nations productivity go down. Have the orcs using the blood of demon children to make the coffee additive and they are getting everyone addicted before the horde comes to kill them all. Give the Orcroast a specific symbol, a mermaid tailed orc maiden. Have the orcs wear that symbol on their chests as they are killing the women and children. Have orcroast close overnight and then you see people vomiting and unable to move by afternoon without their demon blood coffee.
Lets see how long before she loses it having her favorite company lampooned while having orcs coming in and destroying everything.
Bonus: if you can do a latin american accent for the orcs do it.
Quote from: SHARK on July 08, 2024, 10:23:49 AMQuote from: Exploderwizard on July 08, 2024, 07:34:09 AMSounds like a cool campaign to me. Getting loot and killing bad guys are what its all about. I don't play D&D to hang out at Starbucks and NOT go on adventures. These people are only gaming in order to shit in someone else's bed.
Greetings!
*LAUGHING* So true, Exploderwizard! Yes, my friend, the woman in question--the Woke woman gamer--also *loves* going to Starbucks all the time. She likes to argue for the player characters hanging out in coffee shops and going to Ren Faire parties in the forest, where everyone can dance with the elves and "get their freak on".
I described various NPC allies of the Player Group as providing strict discipline and teaching to a large group of young Ogres in a Ogre Farming Camp--and two of the Players are involved in this project--and the Woke gamer woman said that, right there, was a HUGE example of my campaign "Platforming Colonialism."
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Platforming Colonialism? Fuck'em they're ogres.
What's wrong with colonialism, first of all. I bet this woman thinks South Africa would look like the Jetsons if it wasn't for those damn Dutch keeping down the natives. It's ALWAYS the white westerners who are the issue, right? Self-loathing liberals are the absolute worst.
That out of the way, if this broad isn't playing in your game, maybe tell her to fuck off and stop commenting on it. People like her are literally destroying this hobby by saying absolutely retarded bullshit like that and making regular gamers capitulate to their "demands". It's just so obnoxious.
To be fair. The Dutch were a plague on what feels like every other native culture they came across. But so were most of the other seagoing powers of the time.
Quote from: SHARK on July 07, 2024, 09:54:40 PMThe witches were burned alive at the stake, and most of the Goblins and Orcs were slaughtered. Some of the Orcs and Ogres that survived, were taken prisoner, and held under guard in nearby, improvised stockade camps.
The young Ogres, Orcs, and Goblins were taken away from their surviving families, and taken away to be educated properly in civilization and proper religion. The adult members of their families are being held in these stockade camps, and sent out on work parties, performing hard labour in farming, road-building, mining, and ditch-digging.
Interesting. In all of the D&D games I've seen, the PCs either killed or let go of non-combatant humanoids. You use the passive voice with the education program -- who ran these re-education centers for humanoids? Was it something new the PCs set up? Or had it been in place for a while? If the latter, are there civilized ogres mixed into human/demi-human society?
Late to the party here, but to echo everyone, that sounds like an awesome adventure. IF you were near NE OK I'd beg a place at the table at least once in a while.
Like you I believe in absolute in the good evil etc spectrum. There are some things or people that will kill you given the chance and with goblins eat you after (or before) you are dead. No peaceful coexistence. The danger is with humans you do not KNOW for sure where they are on the spectrum (unlike the goblin or the witches from your example).
That said I do also like the idea of redemption . One of my favorite NPCs from back in the day was a knight from a Dragon article (based on Historic Medieval myths on Roland etc) that was raised a heathen barbarian, but captured as a your and raised in a lords castle and learned to be a civilized knight. However, in times of stress he would revert back to barbarian and go into berserker mode and drop his knightly sword and pick up a club and go to town on ALL around him.
With that I have no problem spearing anyone and attempting to redeem them. Also let my groups know that what goes around comes around. If you murder hobo everything and kill everything even after they drop their weapons and surrender, then when they party is on the losing end they WILL be executed without hesitation. However, if they let even lowly defeated goblins sneak off after being defeated (with a warning that if they are seen here again they will die), word gets out that monsters do not have to fight to the death, and may yield, so the fights are not as hard, and if defeated they party will not be murdered themselves.
Now my example of meeting a modern liberal gamer. I was at one of my work stops a few months ago (I go to a different place each day) and noticed one of the guys at the reception desk of the VA Med Clinic had all kinds of pins on his ID lanyard. One was the D&D Dragon & and without thinking said 'Oh you're a gamer, I didn't realize it. I game too' . I should have known to keep my mouth shut ... He is a nice enough guy. Friendly etc, but very modern/post-modern. I had a chance to mention I play Castles and Crusaders and Traveller, but the rest of the 5-10 min conversation was him talking about his DM Group Campaign. By the time it was over I knew there was NO way I'd fit at their table and that despite sharing a common hobby, we spoke complexly different gaming language.
So, your campaign was realistic? That's a hate crime dood :D
Quote from: SHARK on July 07, 2024, 09:54:40 PMThe young Ogres, Orcs, and Goblins were taken away from their surviving families, and taken away to be educated properly in civilization and proper religion.
That's a mistake.
Don't forget what Gary said, "Nits make lice".
Cant people realize that this is a fantasy world, and people are playing characters that are not them, but people who exist in a fantasy world that doesn't exist, and the WHOLLY DIFFERENT CULTURE than the real world! And people like her are why people want to escape the real world once in a while?
It is ROLE-PLAYING. You're acting as people who are not like your own self. As such, these characters we play may do things that we won't.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2024, 01:43:22 AMI think your players (and maybe you too) are going soft:
The only good Goblin, Orc, Ogre, Witch, etc is a dead one.
Goddamn right! 'They're Ork children! You can't kill them!'
Watch me, bitch. And I will be doing civilization a favor by ridding it of another monster that would grow up to plague it.
This is why I think including B2 as the 'intro' adventure for most of Moldvay Basic's run was a misstep--it required groups to engage with those questions from the start, instead of letting them get into it as they grew more familiar with the game.
Quote from: Omega on July 08, 2024, 06:30:22 PMTo be fair. The Dutch were a plague on what feels like every other native culture they came across. But so were most of the other seagoing powers of the time.
Fair enough, but honestly I'd rather be subjugated into wearing wooden shoes than hacked into pieces with a machete and eaten.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 08, 2024, 09:55:25 PMThis is why I think including B2 as the 'intro' adventure for most of Moldvay Basic's run was a misstep--it required groups to engage with those questions from the start, instead of letting them get into it as they grew more familiar with the game.
I think this is a prime example of reality not fitting with the "current narrative". People talk about the morality behind killing baby orcs NOW, but I cannot ever remember something like this coming up in any game I ever played. Orcs? Evil bastards, says so right in the Monster Manual, so kill away.
The baby orcs debate certainly raged in APAs and letter columns back in the day. B2 can be 'fixed' by making it a military outpost with no non-combatants present. If I was a photoshop/AI guy I could see doing a Little Orcs On the Prairie intro for The Keep On the Borderlands.
I figure baby orcs are ambulatory and vicious with-in a few hours of birth. They're kept in individual play pens like Siamese fighting fish. They only start to be sociable after a year of careful incentives and punishments. Older orcs might be rehabilitated but young orcs are like the Tazmanian Devil. HD 1/2, AC 7, Claw / Claw / Bite 1-2, 1-2, 1-3. It's a myth that they gnaw their way out of the womb but after than look out. After about a year (2 hp+) they develop a "MINE" bite attack that automatically grapples if it hits.
Quote from: jhkim on July 08, 2024, 07:50:27 PMQuote from: SHARK on July 07, 2024, 09:54:40 PMThe witches were burned alive at the stake, and most of the Goblins and Orcs were slaughtered. Some of the Orcs and Ogres that survived, were taken prisoner, and held under guard in nearby, improvised stockade camps.
The young Ogres, Orcs, and Goblins were taken away from their surviving families, and taken away to be educated properly in civilization and proper religion. The adult members of their families are being held in these stockade camps, and sent out on work parties, performing hard labour in farming, road-building, mining, and ditch-digging.
Interesting. In all of the D&D games I've seen, the PCs either killed or let go of non-combatant humanoids. You use the passive voice with the education program -- who ran these re-education centers for humanoids? Was it something new the PCs set up? Or had it been in place for a while? If the latter, are there civilized ogres mixed into human/demi-human society?
Well, Jhkim, the players came up with the idea of coordinating with several local churches, the nearby town's Militia Commander, and a prominent merchant that owns a local logging and timber company. An NPC henchman, a Ranger named Gregori Chemikov, mentioned that in a land to the west, Uggarya, the peoples there have some history and experience with living amongst several Ogre tribes that have been converted from savagery, and have become generally loyal members of the local communities. Thus, the group could readily imagine the benefits of having friendly Ogres as allies, though thinking about Goblins and Orcs took them awhile to hash out, and eventually decided that giving them a chance to gain redemption was worthwhile. The player playing the character, Ivan Dranyev, a Paladin serving the Church of Dharyaan, further suggested that, if the various humanoids renege on their pledges, and fail to show good faith on their road to redemption--the consequences can be very severe, and result in them all being swiftly executed. Thus resolved, the Players were agreed that such an attempt at redeeming the savage humanoids that they had captured, was a worthwhile endeavor.
The Players then traveled to the nearby estate of the Boyar Varslav Sarghev, and sought his counsel, as well as suggesting that they would arrange for considerable profits being directed to him, in exchange for his help and assistance. The Boyar Varslav Sarghev liked the group's thinking, manners, and demeanor, and agreed to send 300 of his warriors, led by a dozen members of his Druzhina, and 150 professional craftsmen and workers to help build things, as well as assist in supervising and training the humanoids. One of the players is a follower of the Pagan Goddess, Mokosh, and was able to gain the support of the local Temple of Mokosh for their proposed project. Furthermore, the local Church of Dharyaan did not want to be outdone or embarrassed by the efforts of the Temple of Mokosh, so they, too, agreed to assist the Players with this unusual project.
The local town, Khamby Rogg, is ruled by the Boyar Gleb Zheidenov, though is governed by a Veche. The Boyar Gleb Zheidenov and the Khamby Rogg Veche had already had prior experience with working with the Player group, and was well-acquainted with them from a series of prior missions and adventures. The Khamby Rogg Veche and Boyar Gleb Zheidenov had both sponsored great feasts in honour of the Player group and had rewarded them well for their heroism and service in protecting the Town of Khamby Rogg. The town of Khamby Rogg agreed to provide some engineers from the Engineer's Guild, as well as some skilled professional craftsmen, workers, and labourers, to assist in the project. Of course, the Boyar Gleb Zheidenov, and the town's Militia Commander, Yuri Golub, have agreed to assist with some 200 soldiers and 100 Militia Archers in providing military protection and supervision, especially of the stockade encampments that hold the adult humanoids that surrendered during the earlier operations that cleared the dungeon complex.
The dungeon complex, the dungeon known locally as Zhenya Grove, rests amidst an old, dense section of rugged forest that embraces a range of hills--known as the Yemba Hills--overlooks the Ghenya River. The Ghenya River flows southwards and eastwards, into the larger forest, known as the Chomyu. The Chomyu Forest stretches for several hundred miles and is a vast wilderness. The Chomyu is known, however, to also be the home of the Nyomoya, a powerful tribe of barbarian humans that are zealous worshippers of the Pagan God, Perun. The Chomyu also embraces the Vandra Hills, which are rumoured to hold deep veins of fine silver. The Chomyu Forest is also known to be the home of the Gyomyegg Centaurs, which the Boyar Gleb Zheidenov hopes to secure a peace treaty with, as well as important trade agreements. Local tribal legends maintain that the Chomyu is the ancient location of the "Vale of Maiden's Laughter"--said to be an enchanted forest vale, sacred to Zorya, the Goddess of the Dawn. Rumours swirl about the folklore of the "Seven Sisters of Madeva" living in the forest. The "Seven Sisters of Madeva" are believed to be seven holy Gamayun women. Gamayun are large, magical bird women, typically having some brilliant colour, and possessing great wisdom, knowledge, and power. Legends also persist of a mysterious artifact, known as "Zorya's Embrace" being somewhere within the ancient forest. Legends are unclear, however, claiming that "Zorya's Embrace" is a majestic and ancient staff, while other legends insist that "Zorya's Embrace" is a gigantic, glittering sword of breathtaking power. Some legends describe "Zorya's Embrace" being a shimmering and gorgeous throne of precious jewels, gold, and illuminated by burning fragments of stars, blessed by the Goddess, Zorya. All of this knowledge and lore has many individuals amidst Khamby Rogg extremely excited and in wondrous awe of the potential glory for any heroes, and for any wondrous discoveries that may be uncovered by strong exploration of the region.
So, the players having defeated the evil Witches of Zhenya's Grove, and crushed the various groups of humanoids, has opened up many new opportunities and potentials.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Lurker on July 08, 2024, 08:02:24 PMLate to the party here, but to echo everyone, that sounds like an awesome adventure. IF you were near NE OK I'd beg a place at the table at least once in a while.
Like you I believe in absolute in the good evil etc spectrum. There are some things or people that will kill you given the chance and with goblins eat you after (or before) you are dead. No peaceful coexistence. The danger is with humans you do not KNOW for sure where they are on the spectrum (unlike the goblin or the witches from your example).
That said I do also like the idea of redemption . One of my favorite NPCs from back in the day was a knight from a Dragon article (based on Historic Medieval myths on Roland etc) that was raised a heathen barbarian, but captured as a your and raised in a lords castle and learned to be a civilized knight. However, in times of stress he would revert back to barbarian and go into berserker mode and drop his knightly sword and pick up a club and go to town on ALL around him.
With that I have no problem spearing anyone and attempting to redeem them. Also let my groups know that what goes around comes around. If you murder hobo everything and kill everything even after they drop their weapons and surrender, then when they party is on the losing end they WILL be executed without hesitation. However, if they let even lowly defeated goblins sneak off after being defeated (with a warning that if they are seen here again they will die), word gets out that monsters do not have to fight to the death, and may yield, so the fights are not as hard, and if defeated they party will not be murdered themselves.
Now my example of meeting a modern liberal gamer. I was at one of my work stops a few months ago (I go to a different place each day) and noticed one of the guys at the reception desk of the VA Med Clinic had all kinds of pins on his ID lanyard. One was the D&D Dragon & and without thinking said 'Oh you're a gamer, I didn't realize it. I game too' . I should have known to keep my mouth shut ... He is a nice enough guy. Friendly etc, but very modern/post-modern. I had a chance to mention I play Castles and Crusaders and Traveller, but the rest of the 5-10 min conversation was him talking about his DM Group Campaign. By the time it was over I knew there was NO way I'd fit at their table and that despite sharing a common hobby, we spoke complexly different gaming language.
Greetings!
Yeah, Lurker! Gaming with you would be awesome!!!
And yes, I always seek to set in motion a variety of at least *potential* consequences for *whatever* kinds of actions or behavior undertaken by the Player Characters. That also goes for various NPC's as well. Honestly, yes, I agree. There are both definite advantages and *downsides* to embracing the "Murderhobo" approach, just as there is with seeking redemption. I like it, because there *are* definite benefits to each approach--and the downsides--and that makes contemplating such approaches so interesting and tempting. Asking these kinds of questions is almost always useful, and provides endless entertainment, drama, and opportunities at the table, in my view.
Yeah, I often get the sense that Woke gamers really *do* speak an entirely different language. Like my friend Spinachcat says, we should embrace a "Gaming Hobby Divorce"--on down the line, for our game groups, our conventions, the game companies that we patronize, everything. I really do suspect that many Woke gamers actually do play in Waterdeep Magical Coffee Shops, make "Hot Messes" of themselves in weird forest parties, and attend gay rainbow proms in their weird, utopian, Woke fantasy cities. It isn't just a figment of our hate-filled imaginations, either--I have watched some of Connie Chang's livestream plays, amongst other Woke gamers, and their games resemble nothing like the games I run or play in. Sad, my friend, but it is true. Woke gamers really do believe different things, and that effects everything in life--including how they play and run their games.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I tend to assume that anyone who uses the word "colonialism" this way is demonstrating themselves to be a moral and historical simpleton, and can therefore safely be disregarded.
That said, for some reason I feel the urge to be the mandatory needless contrarian on this thread, so here goes:
It's a bit weird to see comments declaring that "orcs and goblins are X", as if it was a scientific fact, when surely it's contingent on the game and setting being run. As the WoW thread went into in detail, the notion that orcs are sentient free-willed creatures and not necessarily essentially evil is now over 20 years old and possibly the majority view in recent fantasy projects, so a degree of confusion is perhaps forgivable.
I think I've said this elsewhere, but this is a part of why I rarely use orcs in my games. The standard reference points that players have for them are too inconsistent for me to rely on what assumptions they'll bring into the game. I do use goblins quite a lot, but I run them more neutrally, as creatures which tend towards being malicious, but are fully capable of being bargained or reasoned with. Oddly I think goblins have been more consistently portrayed across history, possibly because they have more of a folkloric basis instead of being purely an invention of fantasy authors.
I'm actually sympathetic to someone not being comfortable with their supposedly heroic character slaughtering helpless infants of any race. It's a pretty reliable general rule that a hero does not execute the defenseless in cold blood. In SHARK's example, the mere fact that re-education of orc children is possible is prima facie evidence that the orc race's villainy is in some respect cultural, and that the children are therefore innocent and sparing them is the right thing to do.
I think you can make slaughtering the spawn of evil races morally justifiable, but you have to make them truly inhuman. Either the race has to be physiologically/psychologically incapable of not being evil (e.g. Goblin Slayer's goblins), or they have to be evil on a metaphysical level where they don't truly possess free will (e.g. Demons). It's probably also advisable to contrive their biology in such a way that they don't ever go through a phase of being "children" (e.g., Warhammer's Orks). But if you make their evil nature either cultural or due to the machinations of some outside power (e.g., evil gods), you inevitably open up some moral questions which are going to make things awkward.
Quote from: Brad on July 08, 2024, 10:31:48 PMI think this is a prime example of reality not fitting with the "current narrative". People talk about the morality behind killing baby orcs NOW, but I cannot ever remember something like this coming up in any game I ever played. Orcs? Evil bastards, says so right in the Monster Manual, so kill away.
The MM or DMG notes that the monsters alignment is just for the ones you most often meet
And the OD&D Alignment chart places orcs as Neutral or Chaotic.
The families in b2 are not there to kill. They are also not there to not kill. Its up to the players to figure out what to do. And clever PCs could negotiate or trick their way right through them.
It is not set in stone that you must kill everything not that you have to spare everything. Play it as it plays out. Reactions could tilt things wildly.
Quote from: David Johansen on July 08, 2024, 08:07:46 PMSo, your campaign was realistic? That's a hate crime dood :D
Greetings!
*Laughing* Yeah, David! I know, I know. I have sinned terribly by running a game with realism in it! Such a savage hate crime!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: DocJones on July 08, 2024, 08:14:48 PMQuote from: SHARK on July 07, 2024, 09:54:40 PMThe young Ogres, Orcs, and Goblins were taken away from their surviving families, and taken away to be educated properly in civilization and proper religion.
That's a mistake.
Don't forget what Gary said, "Nits make lice".
Greetings!
Yes, that's right, Doc Jones! "Nits make Lice!" *Laughing*
Kill them all!
As I am fond of saying, "Let Fire and Steel be their portion!"
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Cathode Ray on July 08, 2024, 08:43:42 PMCant people realize that this is a fantasy world, and people are playing characters that are not them, but people who exist in a fantasy world that doesn't exist, and the WHOLLY DIFFERENT CULTURE than the real world! And people like her are why people want to escape the real world once in a while?
It is ROLE-PLAYING. You're acting as people who are not like your own self. As such, these characters we play may do things that we won't.
Greetings!
*Laughing* Yeah, Cathode Ray!
ROLE-PLAYING I think many more recent gamers really have little idea what it means to actually role-play. As we have seen from many articles, interviews, and online proclamations and chats--lots of this new generation of modern gamers absolutely fully embrace the idea of "REPRESENTATION" and that RPG's are absolutely stages for them to "Self-Insert" themselves into. In every case, they have transliminated the video-game aspect of creating an "Avatar" that is specifically *them*, in the modern world, in the here and now.
Thus, there really isn't any "Role-Playing" going on. I'm not sure what the Hell goes on in these Woke games--but going by their testimony and exclamations, they clearly have no idea what it means to role-play a different person from themselves, set into a different age, and even a different society, culture, and world. All of that is entirely beyond the modern, Woke gamer.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on July 08, 2024, 09:50:40 PMQuote from: GeekyBugle on July 08, 2024, 01:43:22 AMI think your players (and maybe you too) are going soft:
The only good Goblin, Orc, Ogre, Witch, etc is a dead one.
Goddamn right! 'They're Ork children! You can't kill them!'
Watch me, bitch. And I will be doing civilization a favor by ridding it of another monster that would grow up to plague it.
Greetings!
*Laughing* That's RIGHT, Insane Nerd Ramblings!
Yes, KILL THEM ALL!
That's always an option, certainly.
However, on occasion, there may be some benefit to be gained from parleying with such creatures, taking them prisoner, and otherwise letting some of them live.
I also like the cartoons you posted!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 08, 2024, 09:55:25 PMThis is why I think including B2 as the 'intro' adventure for most of Moldvay Basic's run was a misstep--it required groups to engage with those questions from the start, instead of letting them get into it as they grew more familiar with the game.
Greetings!
I have always lived "Keep On The Borderlands!" *Laughing* Probably my favourite module ever!
You don't like Players being "Thrown Into The Deep End!"?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on July 07, 2024, 09:54:40 PM"This campaign seems full of hatred, racism, misogyny, and colonialism!"
Oh, you mean it is fun. OK.
Quote from: Omega on July 09, 2024, 01:22:04 AMIt is not set in stone that you must kill everything not that you have to spare everything. Play it as it plays out. Reactions could tilt things wildly.
Well of course not, but if you're clearing out a dungeon of orcs, why wouldn't you clear it out?
That said, one of the first games I ever played had a couple chaotic characters who kept making friends with all the goblinoids we came across, so it's not like I've never seen it happen, it just doesn't make any sense to assume any/every monster has the potential to be friendly. Even in the example adventure in the Moldvay Basic it clearly demonstrates trying to reason with hobgoblins before randomly engaging in melee; the same logic wouldn't apply to hobgoblins actively attacking the party. In the latter case, death is the only option.
Quote from: SHARK on July 08, 2024, 11:33:13 PMYeah, I often get the sense that Woke gamers really *do* speak an entirely different language. Like my friend Spinachcat says, we should embrace a "Gaming Hobby Divorce"--on down the line, for our game groups, our conventions, the game companies that we patronize, everything. I really do suspect that many Woke gamers actually do play in Waterdeep Magical Coffee Shops, make "Hot Messes" of themselves in weird forest parties, and attend gay rainbow proms in their weird, utopian, Woke fantasy cities. It isn't just a figment of our hate-filled imaginations, either--I have watched some of Connie Chang's livestream plays, amongst other Woke gamers, and their games resemble nothing like the games I run or play in. Sad, my friend, but it is true. Woke gamers really do believe different things, and that effects everything in life--including how they play and run their games.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Yeah, their idea of a game session sounds BORING. Sure, I like a good amount of role-playing, but that's just porting over their real-life self-indulgent shit. Their narcissism knows no bounds.
*literally shaking*
My special hypoallergenic pudding is not setting properly! What will I do without my nutrient agar!
Yeah, contrast is one of those dials that needs to be discussed before the campaign. But even if you did, sounds like others need that explanation too. ::) Whatever. I like the rare "They're not bad guys, they're sad guys! You Misunderstand THEM!" but very, Very, VERY rarely. If everything's grey, then everything's indistinct, like bland gruel, like pablum.
So, what you do is get the bard to write a play about a family that adopts a cute and funny orc baby and you open it in courts and theatres (if you've got them) across the land. There's an advertisment for orc baby adoptions on the back of the playbill (or the crier's spiel if there's no printing press or copy spells). You make a plea for parents to come forward and bring orc babies into loving homes. You make 100gp per baby. You leave the kingdom before they hit puberty at six and start murdering people.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 09, 2024, 05:16:01 AMQuote from: SHARK on July 07, 2024, 09:54:40 PM"This campaign seems full of hatred, racism, misogyny, and colonialism!"
Oh, you mean it is fun. OK.
Haaaa, I was taking the last drink of coffee before I grab lunch when I read that, and I laughed it out. Luckily MOST went back into the ole cup.
Toooooo funny of a response and good job on giving me some humor ! THANKS !
It's been a while since I ran a classic D&D sand box campaign. But if I did, I'd probably start with a orc or goblin massacre to set the stage. Maybe that's why I found Goblin Slayer (the RPG) to be interesting since it makes no bones that goblins are evil.
Many posters have been saying about how evil races should just be killed, but in SHARK's campaign, ogres were proven capable of being good citizens - and the PCs were trying to also have orcs and goblins become good citizens.
Quote from: SHARK on July 08, 2024, 10:59:18 PMWell, Jhkim, the players came up with the idea of coordinating with several local churches, the nearby town's Militia Commander, and a prominent merchant that owns a local logging and timber company. An NPC henchman, a Ranger named Gregori Chemikov, mentioned that in a land to the west, Uggarya, the peoples there have some history and experience with living amongst several Ogre tribes that have been converted from savagery, and have become generally loyal members of the local communities. Thus, the group could readily imagine the benefits of having friendly Ogres as allies, though thinking about Goblins and Orcs took them awhile to hash out, and eventually decided that giving them a chance to gain redemption was worthwhile. The player playing the character, Ivan Dranyev, a Paladin serving the Church of Dharyaan, further suggested that, if the various humanoids renege on their pledges, and fail to show good faith on their road to redemption--the consequences can be very severe, and result in them all being swiftly executed. Thus resolved, the Players were agreed that such an attempt at redeeming the savage humanoids that they had captured, was a worthwhile endeavor.
That's interesting, and if humanoids aren't inherently evil, it seems like it opens up some big philosophical questions in the world about what the conflict with humanoids is about. Since the PCs are now invested in redeeming savage humanoids, it might be interesting to see how they deal with another group who want to kill all humanoids and cleanse the land of their filth.
Do you allow civilized ogres as PCs, SHARK? I seem to recall you had some weird race options, like your rainbow hippos. In one of my early D&D campaigns, I played a half-ogre fighter - as written by Gygax in Dragon magazine #29 (1979). He dealt with a lot of bad reactions when we were in town, but we did really well in the Judge's Guild dungeon we were going through, so we ended up dropping a lot of gold which got over some of the prejudice.
Quote from: zircher on July 09, 2024, 02:56:44 PMIt's been a while since I ran a classic D&D sand box campaign. But if I did, I'd probably start with a orc or goblin massacre to set the stage. Maybe that's why I found Goblin Slayer (the RPG) to be interesting since it makes no bones that goblins are evil.
That, and it's one of the best "crunchy" systems I've ever read. IMO it's what D&D should have become.
As a side note on colonialism...
Quote from: Brad on July 08, 2024, 10:31:48 PMQuote from: Omega on July 08, 2024, 06:30:22 PMTo be fair. The Dutch were a plague on what feels like every other native culture they came across. But so were most of the other seagoing powers of the time.
Fair enough, but honestly I'd rather be subjugated into wearing wooden shoes than hacked into pieces with a machete and eaten.
Over the course of the 1700s, Dutch settlers in South Africa effected a genocide on the San people of the region. There are no clear statistics on the number, but it is clear that they wiped out at least tens of thousands. Here's testimonial from the time:
Quote"A farmer," says Barrow, in 1797, "thinks he cannot proclaim a more meritorious action than the murder of one of these people. A farmer from Graaff-Reinet, being asked in the Secretary's office a few days before we left town, if the savages were numerous or troublesome on the road, replied, 'he had only shot four,' with as much composure and indifference, as if he had been speaking of four partridges. I myself have heard one of the humane colonists boast of having destroyed with his own hands nearly three hundred of these unfortunate wretches."
They would have commando forces of 50-100 horsemen, go in and directly wipe out encampments of San - killing all the men and taking the women and children into captivity, and did this for decades until the British took over in 1795.
That's significantly different from being subjugated into wearing wooden shoes.
Quote from: Brad on July 08, 2024, 10:31:48 PMQuote from: Omega on July 08, 2024, 06:30:22 PMTo be fair. The Dutch were a plague on what feels like every other native culture they came across. But so were most of the other seagoing powers of the time.
Fair enough, but honestly I'd rather be subjugated into wearing wooden shoes than hacked into pieces with a machete and eaten.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 08, 2024, 09:55:25 PMThis is why I think including B2 as the 'intro' adventure for most of Moldvay Basic's run was a misstep--it required groups to engage with those questions from the start, instead of letting them get into it as they grew more familiar with the game.
I think this is a prime example of reality not fitting with the "current narrative". People talk about the morality behind killing baby orcs NOW, but I cannot ever remember something like this coming up in any game I ever played. Orcs? Evil bastards, says so right in the Monster Manual, so kill away.
Greetings!
Yes, KILL THEM ALL! Let God Sort Them Out! *Laughing*
As the DM, I try to avoid telling my Players what to think, how to behave, or how to interpret morality. I seek to let them arrive at the answers for their own questions. *Laughing*
Of course, I certainly *encourage* a strong moral ethic in the campaign through the mouths of various NPC's, or whatever written book or scroll on philosophy that the Player Characters may come into possession of, and read. There are, also of course, books of sacred Scriptures for several large and prominent religions, so the Player Characters can also find inspiration for their own moral philosophy within the pages of such revered books.
Much to my Players lament--I can generally do a pretty good job of playing "Devil's Advocate" and present strong and persuasive arguments for whatever philosophy. Yes, it certainly helps that I was the President of the Philosophy Club in college, and I regularly participated in official, organized college debates. Having such background experience has at least a few benefits--and, I am glad, can also be entertaining. *Laughing*
In my Thandor campaign, for example, I have various NPC's that certainly promote the philosophy that all such humanoids are dark, evil savages, and should be exterminated ruthlessly, at every opportunity. Then, of course, I have other NPC's, usually of a different religion or philosophical belief--though sometimes, such NPC's can also be members of the same religion as the Player Characters--that promote a different philosophy, and embrace different moral, religious, or legal approaches.
It definitely contributes to some very entertaining game sessions! It is funny, as well, because sometimes, the Player Characters themselves get into some of the exact debates we have here on the website! I have enjoyed watching them have huge discussions, in-character, between their characters about some of this stuff for an hour or more. Hilarious!
Most people don't change their minds drastically, and usually are happy to stick to their guns, so to speak. So, great debates are typically not settled with some kind of dramatic, kumbaya outcome. Some, even become more entrenched and strident in their beliefs. Most of the time, whatever the disagreements between various Player Characters or NPC's, usually some kind of compromise can be hashed out, specifically on a case-by-case situation.
From my view, 50,000 feet up as the DM, well, yes. Of course the evil races of humanoids are generally, 80% to 95% EVIL, depending on the particular race. Some creatures, of course, like Demons, are absolutely 100% EVIL. With mortal races of creatures, humanoids in particular, I also like having broad alignment "Flags". Or "Hats". *Laughing* It's fun, and just easier. However, having just a bit of alignment variation amongst different humanoid races can provide interesting campaign elements.
Good stuff, my friend!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: jhkim on July 09, 2024, 04:54:40 PMThat's significantly different from being subjugated into wearing wooden shoes.
(https://i.imgur.com/Jl4JeXR.gif)
Quote from: Brad on July 09, 2024, 07:38:09 AMQuote from: Omega on July 09, 2024, 01:22:04 AMIt is not set in stone that you must kill everything not that you have to spare everything. Play it as it plays out. Reactions could tilt things wildly.
Well of course not, but if you're clearing out a dungeon of orcs, why wouldn't you clear it out?
The PCs are investigating. Without grabbing the module if recall right no one at the time of the PCs arrival is exactly sure what is going on. Just that something is going on around the caves and humanoids are involved.
The module makes it explocitly clear that PCs can negotiate and monsters may take hostages rather than kill. So The PCs are usually going in unsure who is doing what or why.
Some of the rumors point to certain things going on. But only if the PCs ever think to ask.
It really is the best module as its so crazy open ended. Go in kill em all? Go in sneaky? Go in investigating and talking? Mix it up and do all of the above?
As said. Reactions can throw things in unexpected directions. We got the wights in the cultist area to help us out. I got the kobolds to calm down and after some chatting lucked out and they were friendly enough to give us a detailed map of the areas they had been scouting. And clued us in about the bugbears.
Quote from: Nakana on July 09, 2024, 04:27:10 PMQuote from: zircher on July 09, 2024, 02:56:44 PMIt's been a while since I ran a classic D&D sand box campaign. But if I did, I'd probably start with a orc or goblin massacre to set the stage. Maybe that's why I found Goblin Slayer (the RPG) to be interesting since it makes no bones that goblins are evil.
That, and it's one of the best "crunchy" systems I've ever read. IMO it's what D&D should have become.
Really? I like the comic but I'd only regarded the TRPG as a curiosity up until now. If you're inclined I'd be curious to see a brief rundown of the system and why you'd give it that acclaim.
Quote from: SHARK on July 09, 2024, 03:42:36 AMHowever, on occasion, there may be some benefit to be gained from parleying with such creatures, taking them prisoner, and otherwise letting some of them live.
Certainly. It's about strategic victories as much as anything. You would be smart to ally with the Ork slaves in
G1: Steading of the Hill Giant Chief to get them to lead a revolt against the giants. That kills 2 birds with 1 stone and your job to end the threat of the Giants and their masters, not butcher Orks.
The Caves of Chaos, on the other hand, you have put every last one of them to the sword. They're not like the Lizardmen or even the Bandits, who can possibly be reasoned with. Nope, the Orks, Goblins, Kobolds, Hobgoblins and Bugbears in The Caves are there to be the footsoldiers of the Temple of Evil Chaos and, as Gary noted, 'nits make lice'.
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on July 09, 2024, 11:14:44 PMThe Caves of Chaos, on the other hand, you have put every last one of them to the sword. They're not like the Lizardmen or even the Bandits, who can possibly be reasoned with. Nope, the Orks, Goblins, Kobolds, Hobgoblins and Bugbears in The Caves are there to be the footsoldiers of the Temple of Evil Chaos and, as Gary noted, 'nits make lice'.
B2 has a section on reasoning with the humanoids.
QuoteRANSOMING PRISONERS: Organized tribes can optionally be allowed to take player characters prisoner, freeing one to return to the KEEP in order to bring a ransom back to free the captives. Set the sums low - 10 to 100 gold pieces (or a magic item which the ransoming monsters would find useful) per prisoner. If the ransom is paid, allow the characters to go free. Then, without telling the players, assume that this success brought fame to the capturing monsters, so their numbers will be increased by 2-12 additional members, and the tribe will also be very careful to watch for a return of the adventurers seeking revenge for their humiliating captivity.
QuoteTRIBAL ALLIANCES AND WARFARE: You might allow player characters to somehow become aware that there is a constant fighting going on between the goblins and hobgoblins on one side and the orcs, sometimes with gnoll allies, on the other - with the kobolds hoping to be forgotten by all, and the bugbears picking off any stragglers who happen by. With this knowledge, they might be able to set tribes to fighting one another, and then the adventurers can take advantage of the weakened state of the feuding humanoids. Be careful to handle this whole thing properly; it is a device you may use to aid players who are few in number but with a high level of playing skill.
This says clearly that they are not unified footsoldiers working for the Shrine of Evil Chaos. As far as I can see, the Shrine is just one of many factions within the caves.
Quote from: Omega on July 09, 2024, 07:20:29 PMQuote from: Brad on July 09, 2024, 07:38:09 AMQuote from: Omega on July 09, 2024, 01:22:04 AMIt is not set in stone that you must kill everything not that you have to spare everything. Play it as it plays out. Reactions could tilt things wildly.
Well of course not, but if you're clearing out a dungeon of orcs, why wouldn't you clear it out?
The PCs are investigating. Without grabbing the module if recall right no one at the time of the PCs arrival is exactly sure what is going on. Just that something is going on around the caves and humanoids are involved.
The module makes it explocitly clear that PCs can negotiate and monsters may take hostages rather than kill. So The PCs are usually going in unsure who is doing what or why.
Some of the rumors point to certain things going on. But only if the PCs ever think to ask.
It really is the best module as its so crazy open ended. Go in kill em all? Go in sneaky? Go in investigating and talking? Mix it up and do all of the above?
As said. Reactions can throw things in unexpected directions. We got the wights in the cultist area to help us out. I got the kobolds to calm down and after some chatting lucked out and they were friendly enough to give us a detailed map of the areas they had been scouting. And clued us in about the bugbears.
Greetings!
Yeah, Omega, I, as the DM, generally like to leave such moral choices and strategic decision-making up to the players themselves. Or rather, the Player Characters. I want THEM to think, and make decisions primarily based upon what
their character believes to be right and appropriate, influenced by their Character's religion, their family background, and the society that their Character comes from.
I recognize entirely that such matters can line up with the particular Player, understandably--but by no means must do so.
I enjoy giving the Players freedom to run their Characters however they want--and whatever choices they choose, will typically also come with it a particular set of potential consequences and after-effects, whether such are positive, negative, or probably most realistically, a mix of both.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Omega/Shark:
Not actually disagreeing with you here, just pointing out the style of play you're describing is what we'd call "Advanced" and the "Basic" nature of B2 means that when I played it as a kid we just killed everyone because that's what you did. Eventually, though, there were better approaches to handling situations, for sure, and we became more sophisticated. My entire point is that baby orcs being thrown at neophyte players isn't inappropriate at all; eventually you might learn to do something else besides wholesale slaughter, for whatever reason, but it has nothing to do with morality, either in-game or out. The prior I can see perhaps being a reasonable topic of discussion for all the points you made, but the latter? D&D has nothing to do with reality and trying to inject external ethical systems into a game that has literal mechanisms for determining good/evil is fucking dumb.
Quote from: ForgottenF on July 09, 2024, 08:06:18 PMIf you're inclined I'd be curious to see a brief rundown of the system and why you'd give it that acclaim.
Sure, give me a day or two and I'll write a proper review in the appropriate section (don't want to derail this thread).
>she said that "This campaign seems full of hatred, racism, misogyny, and colonialism!"
Shark's campaign has ALL the tasty flavors!
It's like a OSR Burrito!
My only concern is THAT is something one should only hear in bluetard shitholes like Commiefornia and not Boise, Idaho which is supposed to be home to real Americans, not traitorous worthless woke scum.
In my campaigns, monstrous humanoids don't breed like humans so "oh no, what to do about the baby orc???" never happens. I just don't have the time or interest to deal with that.
I'm very happy for my players to seek non-violent solutions, but don't act surprised when the CHAOTIC monsters don't hold up their end of the bargain!
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on July 09, 2024, 11:14:44 PMQuote from: SHARK on July 09, 2024, 03:42:36 AMHowever, on occasion, there may be some benefit to be gained from parleying with such creatures, taking them prisoner, and otherwise letting some of them live.
Certainly. It's about strategic victories as much as anything. You would be smart to ally with the Ork slaves in G1: Steading of the Hill Giant Chief to get them to lead a revolt against the giants. That kills 2 birds with 1 stone and your job to end the threat of the Giants and their masters, not butcher Orks.
The Caves of Chaos, on the other hand, you have put every last one of them to the sword. They're not like the Lizardmen or even the Bandits, who can possibly be reasoned with. Nope, the Orks, Goblins, Kobolds, Hobgoblins and Bugbears in The Caves are there to be the footsoldiers of the Temple of Evil Chaos and, as Gary noted, 'nits make lice'.
Many of the cave tribes are at odds with each other, which can be leveraged by a clever party. Even the two orc tribes are at odds with each other! The bugbears bully the weaker humanoids so convincing the goblins and hobgoblins to turn on their abusive larger cousins is a good strategy.
Quote from: Brad on July 10, 2024, 05:22:20 PMOmega/Shark:
Not actually disagreeing with you here, just pointing out the style of play you're describing is what we'd call "Advanced" and the "Basic" nature of B2 means that when I played it as a kid we just killed everyone because that's what you did. Eventually, though, there were better approaches to handling situations, for sure, and we became more sophisticated. My entire point is that baby orcs being thrown at neophyte players isn't inappropriate at all; eventually you might learn to do something else besides wholesale slaughter, for whatever reason, but it has nothing to do with morality, either in-game or out. The prior I can see perhaps being a reasonable topic of discussion for all the points you made, but the latter? D&D has nothing to do with reality and trying to inject external ethical systems into a game that has literal mechanisms for determining good/evil is fucking dumb.
Greetings!
Great points, Brad! When I first started playing in 5th grade or so, up through the first part of high school, yeah, we just killed everything--male, female, young or old, it didn't matter. Everything died. Like you say though, with a bit more aging and experience, somewhere in high school we gradually, *occasionally* started doing more role-playing, diplomacy, and that kind of thing. Hell, all through even later adulthood, killing everything is always fun, and still an option. Just later on, yeah, we start to also consider the potential benefits from additional approaches.
In my game here, two out of 5 players wanted to kill everything. *Laughing* A third was undecided, while the other two argued for the benefits of sparing them. One, a Cleric, pondered the potential spiritual benefits of converting them, and bringing them into the ranks of civilized religion. The other player arguing for sparing them--maintained that there could be considerable financial benefits from keeping them alive, and putting them to work, like strong beasts.
So, yeah. I'm fine with whatever the Players agree on as their strategy. There are also additional opportunities for drama and adventures involving the indentured humanoids, right? *Laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Spinachcat on July 10, 2024, 07:45:48 PM>she said that "This campaign seems full of hatred, racism, misogyny, and colonialism!"
Shark's campaign has ALL the tasty flavors!
It's like a OSR Burrito!
My only concern is THAT is something one should only hear in bluetard shitholes like Commiefornia and not Boise, Idaho which is supposed to be home to real Americans, not traitorous worthless woke scum.
In my campaigns, monstrous humanoids don't breed like humans so "oh no, what to do about the baby orc???" never happens. I just don't have the time or interest to deal with that.
I'm very happy for my players to seek non-violent solutions, but don't act surprised when the CHAOTIC monsters don't hold up their end of the bargain!
Greetings!
Yeah, brother, I know. Boise State University has, like most universities everywhere in America, been corrupted by Woke, traitor scum. So, every year, the Woke Commie professors brainwash more young graduates, and send them out into society to breed and spread their evil corruption. Boise is an island of Woke, Liberal scum, while everywhere else in the state is blood-red. Similar to how Texas has been red, with the state capital at Austin, being a Woke Liberal island.
Fortunately, for Idaho, while Boise and the Boise Mayor are Woke and Liberal--the majority of the State Legislature, the Governor, and other executive branches are strongly Conservative. Liberals here REEE about being surrounded by TRUMP supporters *everywhere*. Well, except for the coffee shops and some club areas in Boise, that is a very accurate dynamic.
So, yeah, playing at a game store in Boise, I occasionally see the Woke Liberal gamers hopping about. Unlike Commiefornia though, here even the majority of gamers are usually Conservative. There are always a few Woke morons around though, especially in Boise.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Nakana on July 10, 2024, 05:34:50 PMQuote from: ForgottenF on July 09, 2024, 08:06:18 PMIf you're inclined I'd be curious to see a brief rundown of the system and why you'd give it that acclaim.
Sure, give me a day or two and I'll write a proper review in the appropriate section (don't want to derail this thread).
Thanks I'll keep an eye out for it.
Quote from: SHARK on July 10, 2024, 10:41:33 PMSo, yeah, playing at a game store in Boise, I occasionally see the Woke Liberal gamers hopping about. Unlike Commiefornia though, here even the majority of gamers are usually Conservative. There are always a few Woke morons around though, especially in Boise.
One of the perks that I loved about living around military bases for most of my life is that the gaming stores are not populated with spoon fed wokesters. Of course, now that the military upper ranks are getting infested, that might change, but it has not happened yet.
Quote from: jhkim on July 09, 2024, 04:06:52 PMMany posters have been saying about how evil races should just be killed, but in SHARK's campaign, ogres were proven capable of being good citizens - and the PCs were trying to also have orcs and goblins become good citizens.
Quote from: SHARK on July 08, 2024, 10:59:18 PMWell, Jhkim, the players came up with the idea of coordinating with several local churches, the nearby town's Militia Commander, and a prominent merchant that owns a local logging and timber company. An NPC henchman, a Ranger named Gregori Chemikov, mentioned that in a land to the west, Uggarya, the peoples there have some history and experience with living amongst several Ogre tribes that have been converted from savagery, and have become generally loyal members of the local communities. Thus, the group could readily imagine the benefits of having friendly Ogres as allies, though thinking about Goblins and Orcs took them awhile to hash out, and eventually decided that giving them a chance to gain redemption was worthwhile. The player playing the character, Ivan Dranyev, a Paladin serving the Church of Dharyaan, further suggested that, if the various humanoids renege on their pledges, and fail to show good faith on their road to redemption--the consequences can be very severe, and result in them all being swiftly executed. Thus resolved, the Players were agreed that such an attempt at redeeming the savage humanoids that they had captured, was a worthwhile endeavor.
That's interesting, and if humanoids aren't inherently evil, it seems like it opens up some big philosophical questions in the world about what the conflict with humanoids is about. Since the PCs are now invested in redeeming savage humanoids, it might be interesting to see how they deal with another group who want to kill all humanoids and cleanse the land of their filth.
Do you allow civilized ogres as PCs, SHARK? I seem to recall you had some weird race options, like your rainbow hippos. In one of my early D&D campaigns, I played a half-ogre fighter - as written by Gygax in Dragon magazine #29 (1979). He dealt with a lot of bad reactions when we were in town, but we did really well in the Judge's Guild dungeon we were going through, so we ended up dropping a lot of gold which got over some of the prejudice.
Greetings!
Well, in a limited extent, yeah, there are "Civilized" Ogres. The Vallorean Empire had taken several large Ogre Tribes as prisoners. The Vallorean authorities created special guarded, fortified farms for these Ogre tribes to live on. The Vallorean administration then sent in religious missionaries to constantly preach to the Ogres, as well as other efforts at changing the Ogre culture, way of dressing, and teaching the Ogre's useful professions. Gradually, the Vallorean Empire had conquered several enemy human kingdoms, and after having most of the foreign men executed, set up seperate encampments for 500,000 or 600,000 women. The Vallorean authorities then began a long-term breeding campaign, where the foreign women were set up with Ogres from the Ogre Farms. Half the women died during these programs, or more, though once some 200,000 women survived and were able to give birth to half-Ogre children, new farms and schools were established for the Half-Ogre children. Likewise, male humans were set up with female Ogres, which was more immediately successful in breeding more Half-Ogres.
Rinse and repeat, diligently for about a century or more, and the Vallorean Empire has now cultivated a large popilation of Half-Igre citizens, as well as a limited group of pure Ogre settlements. The Ogres, and the Half-Ogres have gradually been awarded with Vallorean citizenship. The Ogres on the Ogre Farms get regular shipments of extra food, costume jewelry, furs, and weapons and armour. The Ogre Farms also get shipments of animals to herd, as well as eat. Periodically, the Vallorean authorities send convicted criminals to the Ogre Farms where they are swiftly eaten in great feasts. Ogres and Half-Ogres are like extra-large adolescents in adult bodies, with simple minds, a love for flashy bling, sex, food, and violence. Keeping all that in mind, the Ogres and Half-Ogres have gradually been forged into reliable citizens and brutally effective soldiers. Occasionally, people stupid enough to offend the Ogres or Half-Ogres in the wrong way are unceremoniously hacked apart and eaten. Most people working and dealing with Ogres and Half-Ogres receive instruction and materials on how to talk to Ogres, and how to behave with such creatures.
These "Vallorean Ogres" are "Civilized" after a fashion, dressing like humans, having jobs and professions, and enjoying life. Most are involved in hard labour professions, such as farming, mining, logging, blacksmithing, and herding. Beyond such professions, of course, Ogres and Half-Ogres find that serving as soldiers in the Vallorean Legions to be exciting, glorious, and rewarding.
The "Vallorean Ogres" are generally of a Neutral Alignment, with some actually being Good. There are a few that embrace an Evil alignment, though they do not tend to last very long. The rigid foundations of Law and Order promoted by the Vallorean Empire requires most Ogres and Half-Ogres to be very loyal, obedient, disciplined, and law-abiding. Crazed outbursts and wild murderhobo sprees end up being crucified. So, most of the Ogres and Half-Ogres are disciplined and reliable. Even with the majority, though, while not usually "Evil"--they still have a rough, harsh, and brutal nature within them. So, Ogres and Half-Ogres love violence, are generally fearless, and are harsh, brutal, hyper-masculine, hyper-sexual, garrish, and simple-minded. Such characteristics can take considerable effort to manage effectively, while also forging them into trustworthy citizens of the Vallorean Empire.
Out in the world, there is a group of "Civilized" mercantile city-states of Goblins. These Goblins are different from savage Gremlins, which are evil cousin humanoids that are also barbaric and live in tribes. The civilized city-state Goblins are very different, are not usually Evil in alignment, though on a racial scale, they represent a minority population of larger groups of Goblins and more savage and mystical Gremlins.
Orcs, well, they are for the most part, evil and savage. Again, though, there is a somewhat "Civilized" Orc Kingdom, as well as occasionally an independent Orc tribe that is not Evil in alignment. Global-wise, these Orcs are a distinct minority. Most Orcs are evil, brutal savages.
Down to the individual level, the Micro, yeah. 90% are savage and evil, with maybe 10% being Non-Evil. So, the odds are definitely not good for "redeeming" Orcs, converting them, and such like, but, with individuals and small groups, who knows? I let the random dice rolls decide! And the Players choices, approaches, and commitment as modifiers.
I generally prefer to keep the baseline simple, strong, and brutal, with a small chance of something different. I find that such an approach opens the door now and then for different kinds of characters, different kinds of adventures, stories and plots, and yet, without becoming some constant moral circle-jerk with every wilderness or dungeon encounter.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Spinachcat on July 10, 2024, 07:45:48 PM>she said that "This campaign seems full of hatred, racism, misogyny, and colonialism!"
Shark's campaign has ALL the tasty flavors!
It's like a OSR Burrito!
My only concern is THAT is something one should only hear in bluetard shitholes like Commiefornia and not Boise, Idaho which is supposed to be home to real Americans, not traitorous worthless woke scum.
In my campaigns, monstrous humanoids don't breed like humans so "oh no, what to do about the baby orc???" never happens. I just don't have the time or interest to deal with that.
I'm very happy for my players to seek non-violent solutions, but don't act surprised when the CHAOTIC monsters don't hold up their end of the bargain!
God damn right!
BTW, greetings from the Dragonsfoot forums!