Quote from: fixable on October 31, 2020, 04:00:43 AM

Quote from: ShieldWife on October 19, 2020, 11:20:05 AM

Quote from: fixable on October 19, 2020, 02:12:40 AM
Well yes of course. That means stop deriding other people's game experiences/needs.

I mean the only reason this thread exists is because someone saw an rpg game designed for LGBTQ needs and derided it. I mean how much more hypocritical can you get?

Why on heaven's green earth do you care if a game is advertised as anti-fascist or anti-bigot. If you aren't either of such then good for them. If you are, then just go about whatever it is your kind do on a daily basis. Why are you letting it bother you?

Why the hell do you care about this? Are you so easily offended? Let people enjoy games that make them feel comfortable and safe.

I don't think that anybody really cares about an RPG for LGBTQ people. Though, it is a silly idea. You can play a "thirsty lesbian" in any RPG that I have ever played with no additional difficulty. Thirsty Sword Lesbians is a silly name for a game too, it strikes me as more sexploitation than social justice, and that is probably how they should have done it. Like Car Lesbians.

As for why we would let this bother us? I can only speak for myself in saying that a single small time indy game with SJW elements doesn't trouble me at all, even if the creators say that I'm bad and wrong and not allowed to play.

The problem is that this isn't a one time thing with one minor game. It is an extremist attitude which is coming to dominate all geeky hobbies from RPG's to video games to shows, movies, and books. It seems like we can't engage in any geeky activity without being beat over the had with how bad straight white men are and what villains people are for disagreeing.

Would you be pissed off about a bunch of right wing extremists making a RPG where they said that left wingers are terrible and not allowed to play? I bet you would hate that, even if it was an unpopular game made by a small group. How would you feel then if a high percentage of game companies were like that, if most of the TV shows were like that?

Why are you here chastising us for complaining about Thirsty Sword Lesbians instead of asking them why they care about the politics of role players?

Right-wing extremist games already exist. There are several. I'm talking about RaHoWa or Myfarog. I'm sure left-wingers would be disparaged by players of those games. I'm sure those who play these games would care about the politics of their players as well.

I have never made a post in any form of my online presence against them. But there is a difference. Those proposing games like RaHoWa and Myfarog have points of view that can cause active harm to others. Tell me what actual physical harm have thirsty lesbians ever threatened upon you?

I think the name is a little silly too, but I think that is the point. It is a game that is just embracing that and letting it run. I think it is very brave and forward.

I played in a Myfarog camapaign for a few weeks and there wasn't anything right-wing about it. The GM created his own setting, in the ancient fertile crescent and the rules were just (mediocre) RPG rules. I have glanced at the settings published by the originator of the game and they did seem to indicate something worse than being merely on the political right. 

Quote from: fixable on October 31, 2020, 04:00:43 AMThose proposing games like RaHoWa and Myfarog have points of view that can cause active harm to others.

harm /härm/ noun: physical injury, especially that which is deliberately inflicted.

Bullshit.  No one has ever been hurt by a roleplaying game (unless someone threw a 1st edition Warhammer RPG book at them... they were heavy enough to maim you).  Ever.  Someone might have been offended, or angered, or embarrassed, or annoyed.  But those are emotions.  Only the most spoiled, narcissistic, never-matured man-children would even dream of asserting that mental discomfort is the same as physical injury.  Your mental comfort is not anyone else's problem, nor is your mental discomfort "harm."

Ideas cannot "harm" anyone by definition.  Ideas can be evil, reprehensible, immoral, offensive, and disgusting (like fascism or Marxism/communism).  They cannot cause harm.  Only the direct physical actions of people can.  And unless you can come up with examples of an RPG book that literally says "find a tranny in your neighborhood and beat them up," you can't even justify a claim of RPGs encouraging or promoting harm.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 31, 2020, 03:28:04 PM

Quote from: fixable on October 31, 2020, 04:00:43 AMThose proposing games like RaHoWa and Myfarog have points of view that can cause active harm to others.

harm /härm/ noun: physical injury, especially that which is deliberately inflicted.

Bullshit.  No one has ever been hurt by a roleplaying game (unless someone threw a 1st edition Warhammer RPG book at them... they were heavy enough to maim you).  Ever.  Someone might have been offended, or angered, or embarrassed, or annoyed.  But those are emotions.  Only the most spoiled, narcissistic, never-matured man-children would even dream of asserting that mental discomfort is the same as physical injury.  Your mental comfort is not anyone else's problem, nor is your mental discomfort "harm."

Ideas cannot "harm" anyone by definition.  Ideas can be evil, reprehensible, immoral, offensive, and disgusting (like fascism or Marxism/communism).  They cannot cause harm.  Only the direct physical actions of people can.  And unless you can come up with examples of an RPG book that literally says "find a tranny in your neighborhood and beat them up," you can't even justify a claim of RPGs encouraging or promoting harm.

Good catch. The re-definition of terms is insidious.

Quote from: fixable on October 31, 2020, 04:21:03 AM
Wow. You actually are willing to deride someone who makes a very open and accepting statement that people should play the games that make them feel comfortable and safe???

Why? Do you think that some people are not allowed to be comfortable and safe? Do you think some people are not allowed to enjoy the games they like? I don't understand you motivation, here.

What proof do you present that TSL will make LGBT people feel comfortable and safe? What proof do you present that current other games do not make LGBT people feel comfortable and safe?

Quote from: fixable on October 31, 2020, 04:51:44 AM
You take the existence of this game as an attack against you. A game that appeals to otherwise marginalized people, who just want to have fun playing a role-playing game that appeals to them.

I take the existence of this game as a cheap cash grab using old marketing tricks that have been seen before.

What proof do you present that these "marginalized" people will have fun with playing TSL?

Quote from: WillInNewHaven on October 31, 2020, 03:18:17 PM
I played in a Myfarog camapaign for a few weeks and there wasn't anything right-wing about it. The GM created his own setting, in the ancient fertile crescent and the rules were just (mediocre) RPG rules. I have glanced at the settings published by the originator of the game and they did seem to indicate something worse than being merely on the political right.

The author of MYFAROG is a church-burning Nazi convicted murderer, so yes a bit worse than being merely on the political right. Although I hear BLM have been destroying Christian iconography too, so maybe burning Stavkirke is Politically Correct, now.

Quote from: S'mon on October 31, 2020, 06:41:15 PM

Quote from: WillInNewHaven on October 31, 2020, 03:18:17 PM
I played in a Myfarog camapaign for a few weeks and there wasn't anything right-wing about it. The GM created his own setting, in the ancient fertile crescent and the rules were just (mediocre) RPG rules. I have glanced at the settings published by the originator of the game and they did seem to indicate something worse than being merely on the political right.

The author of MYFAROG is a church-burning Nazi convicted murderer, so yes a bit worse than being merely on the political right. Although I hear BLM have been destroying Christian iconography too, so maybe burning Stavkirke is Politically Correct, now.

Oh no Varg isn't a Nazi, he's in fact much dumber than that. He has his own brand of anarcho-primitivism based on some half baked interpretation Norse mythology which is in fact just sexed up atheism where everything represents the placenta, womb, and vaguely defined ancestral knowledge.

Quote from: "fixable"Well yes of course. That means stop deriding other people's game experiences/needs.

I mean the only reason this thread exists is because someone saw an rpg game designed for LGBTQ needs and derided it....

That is sufficient reason. Everyone has the right to stand on a soapbox and proclaim to everyone within shouting distance his personal opinion regarding a product.

Quote from: "fixable...I have never made a post in any form of my online presence against them. But there is a difference. Those proposing games like RaHoWa and Myfarog have points of view that can cause active harm to others. Tell me what actual physical harm have thirsty lesbians ever threatened upon you?...

Many people would argue that normalizing sexual deviancy, whether for the purpose of mocking traditional values or otherwise, harms society, and all such persons have a right to voice their opinions.

Quote from: "fixable"You take the existence of this game as an attack against you. A game that appeals to otherwise marginalized people, who just want to have fun playing a role-playing game that appeals to them.

One could argue that games that appeal "to otherwise marginalized people" promote a victim mentality, and thereby encourage violent conflict resolution and suppression of free speech. It's well known that leftists have no problem with committing violent acts against anyone that is a "Nazi", by their definition, who "have points of view that can cause active harm to others". As such, statements such as "This game is not for fascists, TERFs, or other bigots", can be reasonably interpreted as a call for violence.

Quote from: Arkansan on October 31, 2020, 06:47:19 PM
Oh no Varg isn't a Nazi, he's in fact much dumber than that. He has his own brand of anarcho-primitivism based on some half baked interpretation Norse mythology which is in fact just sexed up atheism where everything represents the placenta, womb, and vaguely defined ancestral knowledge.

   He's also convinced that Tolkien was either a crypto-pagan or would have been if it weren't for the social pressure that kept him a Catholic ... in early 20th century England.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 31, 2020, 08:02:56 PM

Quote from: Arkansan on October 31, 2020, 06:47:19 PM
Oh no Varg isn't a Nazi, he's in fact much dumber than that. He has his own brand of anarcho-primitivism based on some half baked interpretation Norse mythology which is in fact just sexed up atheism where everything represents the placenta, womb, and vaguely defined ancestral knowledge.

   He's also convinced that Tolkien was either a crypto-pagan or would have been if it weren't for the social pressure that kept him a Catholic ... in early 20th century England.

Lord have mercy.

Quote from: S'mon on October 31, 2020, 06:41:15 PM
The author of MYFAROG is a church-burning Nazi convicted murderer, so yes a bit worse than being merely on the political right. Although I hear BLM have been destroying Christian iconography too, so maybe burning Stavkirke is Politically Correct, now.

And as I've said, even as Jewish person I would go ahead and play his game if it were any good. But it's not. And that's the thing about ideologues of every persuasion: they produce only shit.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 31, 2020, 03:28:04 PM

Quote from: fixable on October 31, 2020, 04:00:43 AMThose proposing games like RaHoWa and Myfarog have points of view that can cause active harm to others.

harm /härm/ noun: physical injury, especially that which is deliberately inflicted.

Bullshit.  No one has ever been hurt by a roleplaying game (unless someone threw a 1st edition Warhammer RPG book at them... they were heavy enough to maim you).  Ever.  Someone might have been offended, or angered, or embarrassed, or annoyed.  But those are emotions.  Only the most spoiled, narcissistic, never-matured man-children would even dream of asserting that mental discomfort is the same as physical injury.  Your mental comfort is not anyone else's problem, nor is your mental discomfort "harm."

Ideas cannot "harm" anyone by definition.  Ideas can be evil, reprehensible, immoral, offensive, and disgusting (like fascism or Marxism/communism).  They cannot cause harm.  Only the direct physical actions of people can.  And unless you can come up with examples of an RPG book that literally says "find a tranny in your neighborhood and beat them up," you can't even justify a claim of RPGs encouraging or promoting harm.

I agree that RPGs don't cause harm -- but I disagree with your argument here.

Psychological harm exists. Consider two boys. One boy gets in a lot of trouble. He gets in some fights, gets beat up, but he learns from it. Another boy never gets into fights. His parents forbid it, and they constantly belittle him, and never let him get into trouble, while never laying a finger on him. I think the second boy may grow up to be far more harmed than the first, with a lot of psychological issues. You can seriously harm someone while never causing them a bit of physical injury. Abusive spouses and cult leaders are other examples of those who cause psychological harm.

That said, I agree that I don't think RPGs cause harm. *People* can cause psychological harm, especially if they have psychological power like parents or other close relationships.

However, I don't see any evidence, for example, that there is a book that if read, will cause psychological harm. Lovecraft was an awesome writer, but his ideas were fiction. I don't believe that book banning is ever justified. Someone can read the ideas of Hitler or other terrible people, and that doesn't make them into a nazi. Reading is a conscious activity that a person engages in at their will.

Likewise, tabletop RPGs are entirely created by conscious action by people, for entertainment purposes. There is no power there. I don't see any reason to play MyFarog, but I don't believe that if I ran it, that any psychological harm would happen to me or others. I wouldn't be brainwashed into a crypto-pagan or whatever. That's not how RPGs work.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on November 01, 2020, 02:43:22 AM

Quote from: S'mon on October 31, 2020, 06:41:15 PM
The author of MYFAROG is a church-burning Nazi convicted murderer, so yes a bit worse than being merely on the political right. Although I hear BLM have been destroying Christian iconography too, so maybe burning Stavkirke is Politically Correct, now.

And as I've said, even as Jewish person I would go ahead and play his game if it were any good. But it's not. And that's the thing about ideologues of every persuasion: they produce only shit.

The rules are, at best, mediocre. From what I have seen, the published settings are horrible. Hower, the GM was very good and that's more important, to me, than the game rules.

That is what makes some of the more extre,e Woke SJw position on banning books hypocritical.

If it's something they like and approve of no one better dare ban or remove it from stores ever. If they hate or dislike the author then all copies should be found, thrown into a big pile and burnt. That is why it is harder and harder to find common ground. It's either do things their way or get cancelled or doxxed or both.

why would I want to waste time with such irrational evil people.

Quote from: jhkim on November 01, 2020, 12:34:21 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 31, 2020, 03:28:04 PM

Quote from: fixable on October 31, 2020, 04:00:43 AMThose proposing games like RaHoWa and Myfarog have points of view that can cause active harm to others.

harm /härm/ noun: physical injury, especially that which is deliberately inflicted.

Bullshit.  No one has ever been hurt by a roleplaying game (unless someone threw a 1st edition Warhammer RPG book at them... they were heavy enough to maim you).  Ever.  Someone might have been offended, or angered, or embarrassed, or annoyed.  But those are emotions.  Only the most spoiled, narcissistic, never-matured man-children would even dream of asserting that mental discomfort is the same as physical injury.  Your mental comfort is not anyone else's problem, nor is your mental discomfort "harm."

Ideas cannot "harm" anyone by definition.  Ideas can be evil, reprehensible, immoral, offensive, and disgusting (like fascism or Marxism/communism).  They cannot cause harm.  Only the direct physical actions of people can.  And unless you can come up with examples of an RPG book that literally says "find a tranny in your neighborhood and beat them up," you can't even justify a claim of RPGs encouraging or promoting harm.

I agree that RPGs don't cause harm -- but I disagree with your argument here.

Psychological harm exists. Consider two boys. One boy gets in a lot of trouble. He gets in some fights, gets beat up, but he learns from it. Another boy never gets into fights. His parents forbid it, and they constantly belittle him, and never let him get into trouble, while never laying a finger on him. I think the second boy may grow up to be far more harmed than the first, with a lot of psychological issues. You can seriously harm someone while never causing them a bit of physical injury. Abusive spouses and cult leaders are other examples of those who cause psychological harm.

That said, I agree that I don't think RPGs cause harm. *People* can cause psychological harm, especially if they have psychological power like parents or other close relationships.

However, I don't see any evidence, for example, that there is a book that if read, will cause psychological harm. Lovecraft was an awesome writer, but his ideas were fiction. I don't believe that book banning is ever justified. Someone can read the ideas of Hitler or other terrible people, and that doesn't make them into a nazi. Reading is a conscious activity that a person engages in at their will.

Likewise, tabletop RPGs are entirely created by conscious action by people, for entertainment purposes. There is no power there. I don't see any reason to play MyFarog, but I don't believe that if I ran it, that any psychological harm would happen to me or others. I wouldn't be brainwashed into a crypto-pagan or whatever. That's not how RPGs work.

When you have to add an adjective to your noun, frequently you must do so because you are changing the meaning of the term.  If "harm" included mental effects, you wouldn't need to preface it with "psychological."  You don't need to preface "harm" with "physical" because it is assumed (and is rather redundant).

But, overall, I agree with your points above: that people can psychologically damage others, but inert media can't.  And that books, games, movies, and other forms of speech can't harm anyone.  Which is the crux of his bogus and hypocritical argument as to why some games should be critisized and some shouldn't.