Quote from: fixable on October 18, 2020, 04:11:20 AMIts not about identity politics. It is about facists have ZERO place in our society.

No, it's about identity politics. The Kickstarter itself says it's about identity politics. It mentions racial liberation, queer liberation and Intersectional Feminism.

That.

Is.

Identity.

Politics.

The entire point of Intersectional Feminism is identity politics. It's about the intersection of all identity groups. That IS identity politics.

"FaScIsT" are just a red herring.

Quote from: fixable on October 18, 2020, 04:31:07 AMWell the first step to determining who is fascist is looking at the actions taken.

I agree.

Quote from: fixable on October 18, 2020, 04:11:20 AMIf you are a fascist, then get the f*ck out of our hobby. You don't belong here.

Get the fuck out of our hobby.

You Fascist.

Quote from: fixable on October 18, 2020, 04:31:07 AM
Well the first step to determining who is fascist is looking at the actions taken.

Aggressiveness towards an RPG just because it caters to LGBTQ ideals is a pretty obvious clue.

Another clue is seeing which posters are actively trying to exclude people from playing RPGs.

Quote from: fixable on October 18, 2020, 04:11:20 AM
Its not about identity politics. It is about facists have ZERO place in our society.

Do you know how I know you're lying? Your definition of fascist is "racist, misogynist, transphobe, etc." Those are all idpol issues, even if you think the right position on them is obvious. What is so evil about fascist economy policy? Plenty, but that's not what you're talking about.

The only people I feel should be excluded from the hobby are those who have shown that they do not have the emotional maturity to truly participate and actually contribute to the fun of everybody around the game table.

Because that's what it is ultimately about. People who have a genuine desire to participate and do something about it.

The hobby doesn't need unadaptable egomaniacs. It needs good honest hobbiests who care about not just their fun, but that of the rest of the people they are playing with.

That said. Powergamers, min-maxers, and their ilk have exactly zero emotional maturity. They make the activity entirely about themselves. And do not care one bit about what their presence does to the rest of the group. It's unacceptable. And it shouldn't be accepted or encouraged in any way.

Notice that I didn't mention politics here. I view that as an aspect of real life people game to escape. So it's not welcome at the game table at all to me.

I've gamed with a lot of people who had a lot of different political beliefs. But it was universally accepted that some things are just best left away from the game table. So people could enjoy themselves. So people could escape.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on October 18, 2020, 05:29:23 PM
The hobby doesn't need unadaptable egomaniacs. It needs good honest hobbiests who care about not just their fun, but that of the rest of the people they are playing with.

It offends me that they haven't made a callout to unadaptable egomaniacs.  Some of my best friends are unadaptable egomaniacs!  Most of my players are unadaptable egomaniacs.  There have also been fascist, gay, and transgendered individuals but they have already been included.  Maybe a Vein Diagram?

In the absurd lexicon of the modern left, a "fascist" is just someone who isn't sufficiently anti-white. Other positions relating to economics, foreign policy, and traditional rights are irrelevant.

With that in mind, I'm proudly "fascist."

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on October 18, 2020, 05:32:37 PM
Notice that I didn't mention politics here. I view that as an aspect of real life people game to escape. So it's not welcome at the game table at all to me.

I've gamed with a lot of people who had a lot of different political beliefs. But it was universally accepted that some things are just best left away from the game table. So people could enjoy themselves. So people could escape.

The problem is you can't make that argument with people who believe everything is political.

Quote from: areallifetrex on October 18, 2020, 06:49:42 PM
The problem is you can't make that argument with people who believe everything is political.

That is what the big boot is for. If someone can't respect the game group's boundries, then they go.

You do not engage with a person like that. You simply remove them. As they are clearly going to be disruptive.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on October 18, 2020, 05:29:23 PM
The only people I feel should be excluded from the hobby are those who have shown that they do not have the emotional maturity to truly participate and actually contribute to the fun of everybody around the game table.

Because that's what it is ultimately about. People who have a genuine desire to participate and do something about it.

The hobby doesn't need unadaptable egomaniacs. It needs good honest hobbiests who care about not just their fun, but that of the rest of the people they are playing with.

That said. Powergamers, min-maxers, and their ilk have exactly zero emotional maturity. They make the activity entirely about themselves. And do not care one bit about what their presence does to the rest of the group. It's unacceptable. And it shouldn't be accepted or encouraged in any way.

Min-maxing is where it's at, though. People who exclude min-maxers are unadaptable egomaniacs who lack the emotional maturity to deal with their own inadequacies.

Quote from: VisionStorm on October 18, 2020, 07:04:22 PM

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on October 18, 2020, 05:29:23 PM
The only people I feel should be excluded from the hobby are those who have shown that they do not have the emotional maturity to truly participate and actually contribute to the fun of everybody around the game table.

Because that's what it is ultimately about. People who have a genuine desire to participate and do something about it.

The hobby doesn't need unadaptable egomaniacs. It needs good honest hobbiests who care about not just their fun, but that of the rest of the people they are playing with.

That said. Powergamers, min-maxers, and their ilk have exactly zero emotional maturity. They make the activity entirely about themselves. And do not care one bit about what their presence does to the rest of the group. It's unacceptable. And it shouldn't be accepted or encouraged in any way.

Min-maxing is where it's at, though. People who exclude min-maxers are unadaptable egomaniacs who lack the emotional maturity to deal with their own inadequacies.

QFT!

Some people game because they want to pretend to be elves.  Some people game because they want to create a group story to be part of.  Some people game because they see the mechanics of the game as a puzzle to be solved.  None of those is a wrong way to game.

If you can't GM for min-maxers, the problem isn't with them...

Quote from: VisionStorm on October 18, 2020, 07:04:22 PM
Min-maxing is where it's at, though. People who exclude min-maxers are unadaptable egomaniacs who lack the emotional maturity to deal with their own inadequacies.

You are never going to get me to agree that minmaxing is an acceptable form of play. Because I believe it is not.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on October 18, 2020, 07:18:51 PM
If you can't GM for min-maxers, the problem isn't with them...

Actually, it's a personal choice. I won't GM for min-maxers. There is no "can't" about it. I choose not to.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on October 18, 2020, 07:40:28 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on October 18, 2020, 07:04:22 PM
Min-maxing is where it's at, though. People who exclude min-maxers are unadaptable egomaniacs who lack the emotional maturity to deal with their own inadequacies.

You are never going to get me to agree that minmaxing is an acceptable form of play. Because I believe it is not.

There is no such thing as an unacceptable play style. 

There are only play styles that do not fit with certain groups and are unacceptable in that particular group.  If that is the case then it is time for the player to move on to a new group that does accept their play style.

Quote from: moonsweeper on October 18, 2020, 07:59:39 PM
There is no such thing as an unacceptable play style. 

There are only play styles that do not fit with certain groups and are unacceptable in that particular group.  If that is the case then it is time for the player to move on to a new group that does accept their play style.

I completely disagree with you.

Min-maxers make the game all about themselves. They force the rest of the group they are in to conform of their play style. Whether the rest of the group wants to or not. They force the GM to change the balance of the game to account for their min-maxing. The min-maxers are the ones taking the choices away from the rest of the group, and claiming their play style is superior. And will usually brook no other point of view to exist. They bully the rest of their group to get their way.

I've been in so many campaigns in my life where the min-maxers and powergamers hijacked the campaign and completely derailed it. Not because the GM lacked ideas or stories. But because the min-maxers made themselves so much of a problem, that the other aspects of the game got completely bulldozed in the process.

So for me, I drew a line in the sand. I won't tolerate their bullshit anymore.