TheRPGSite

Okay, Palladium tends to be a bit of a whipping boy but really there's a lot of things they get right.  It's bogged down in the cludgy stuff but there's things I'd really like to see in a game.  I'll note that most of my love goes to the Mechanoid Invasion and First Edition Palladium Fantasy.  Heroes Unlimited and TMNT is where I feel they jumped the shark.

The weapon bonuses.  Palladium has the best weapon differentiation system in the entire industry.  It's clean, it scales as you level up, it broadens the sweet spot, and it works great in play.  Daggers are better for throwing, shields are for parrying, axes are great at attacking but not so hot at defending.  And I'm saying this as a Rolemaster fan.  They could use damage type verses armor type mods for the damage system but I wasn't praising the damage system.

The strike, parry, dodge dynamic.  Dodging costs you an attack but some martial artists can automatic dodge.  Parrying costs you an attack but trained fighters can automatic parry.  The beat the other guy's roll mechanism just works and with a five hitting you get rid of the whiff factor that plagues so many other games.  Of course if you've got simultaneous initiative you've the potential for a simultaneous strike with no defenses allowed.

The Attacks per melee round set up.  While later versions clog it with special case rules the grouping of a number of attacks under a longer melee round is the best of both worlds when it comes to initiative per round or initiative per combat.  And it's still dead simple to use.

Lots of professions.  I like this approach far better than the attempts to blend classes, multi class, spiff up classes with feats and powers.  I was all for ditching the professions as skill costs and replacing them with professions as skill packages in the new Rolemaster.

Saving throws based on caster level.

Real differences in the way magic-using professions approach their art.  This is more of a first edition fantasy thing and the PPE rules leave me cold.  But a Mind Mage, Wizard, Summoner, and Diabolist are all very different in play and have real character and flavor.

I AM IRON MAN is a perfect launch pitch for a grand space opera campaign.

Hit Points based on Physical Endurance.  Yes Tunnels and Trolls did it first. But they still got it right.  D&D's Hit Dice system is a wargames mechanic and I love it for that more tactical kind of my army guys beat on your army guys type of play.  But for the more detailed and realistic (yes I just called Palladium more realistic, scary) rpg it's a good rule.

Armor as hit points.  This gets armor degradation in place and avoids the invincible tank problem of DR and the difficulties that arise from armor making people harder to hit.

Like D&D I think Palladium is a game that has actually ridden on the good core design in spite of the crap that's piled on over the years.  Of course I'd love to see it rebuilt and streamlined but only if they can do it without stripping out the stuff that made it good in the first place.

Yep. People love to rag on Palladium product. But all too often they are just parroting what someone else said without ever actually having looked at the game.

It plays pretty smoothly and even the MDC works after a fasion.

Its probably gives more options than Gurps for character generation and equipment.

Lots of imaginative material at a modest price!

That for me was the appeal of the Mechanoids and Palladium RPG books. (I don't know enough about 2nd ed. to comment, except that a glance suggested there was still a ton of cool stuff.)

TMNT in my memory seems remarkably well organized compared with most of Kevin's line.

I pulled out Heroes Unlimited 2nd Ed. Revised (with USA-1 on the cover) recently for another read-thru and character generation. It clicked a little more than before, but still seemed too bogged down in minor fiddly details and too amateurishly presented.

Note that here we really don't have a lot besides a rules set. Mechanoids is groovy because so much of it is depiction of an interesting world, with lots of illustrations.

What Palladium got/gets right:

- Enthusiasm, that despite our jaded times, is often infectious. Why shouldn't a game remind people that it's supposed to be fun?
- Making opposed rolls the core of combat makes it fun, and more interactive.
- Like David mentioned,the different methods of magic and psychic powers make the different spellcasters distinct and interesting.

Actually I'd even give them points for not having stat penalties.  It's a brilliant way to take the sting out of low rolls.  The main role of stats is in determining the professions you can take.

If I had to pick two I'd say "management" and "artwork"

Wait, what?  OH!  Got right.  Sorry, I misread.

Enthusiasm and resources.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;765330If I had to pick two I'd say "management" and "artwork"

Wait, what?  OH!  Got right.  Sorry, I misread.

Enthusiasm and resources.

Palladium games tended to sport some pretty good art throughout. The occasional low points. But overall pretty good.

I definitely agree with value to cost ratio.  And I still think Splicers and Systems Failure are way under appreciated.  The ebb and flow of strike/parry/dodge makes for a very interactive and exciting conflict.  And the fact you could increase poor physical stats with certain skills was a cool, if often abused, option during character generation.

Enthusiasm, gun porn, the art of Ramon Perez, the magic systems in Palladium Fantasy, anything Erick Wujcik or Bill Coffin did, back-and-forth combat, and the original setting of Rifts.

The hit on a five+, extreme variation on how magic users function, awesome artwork, and enthusiasm for what they were making were the best parts of the Palladium systems.

Most of the games that I've read by them get you fired up to play in a way that other games could only dream of.

Many of the ideas and hooks present in Palladium's products are awesome.

I remember as a kid that their products were high value for a cheap price.

While their soft covers can and will de-laminate, the sewn binding is close to bomb proof.

Lastly- The Palladium Role Playing Game First Edition Revised is a masterpiece:)  It's the original next wave retro-clone.

Quote from: RunningLaser;765352Most of the games that I've read by them get you fired up to play in a way that other games could only dream of.

Many of the ideas and hooks present in Palladium's products are awesome.

I remember as a kid that their products were high value for a cheap price.

While their soft covers can and will de-laminate, the sewn binding is close to bomb proof.

Lastly- The Palladium Role Playing Game First Edition Revised is a masterpiece:)  It's the original next wave retro-clone.

All of this.

A couple years ago on the Palladium message board, one of the admins started a thread asking "what would you NOT want Palladium to change?" And my response was; the binding. Like you said, it's fucking indestructable. I have books almost 30 years old, dogeared, laminate peeled off, stained from who-knows-what, and the binding is still strong as hell.

Quote from: everloss;765368All of this.

A couple years ago on the Palladium message board, one of the admins started a thread asking "what would you NOT want Palladium to change?" And my response was; the binding. Like you said, it's fucking indestructable. I have books almost 30 years old, dogeared, laminate peeled off, stained from who-knows-what, and the binding is still strong as hell.

Oddly I have only had one of my Palladium books de-laminate, and bemusingly that was the Palladium RPG book. Ive got a few that are a little edge parted. But otherwise fine. Warping of the cover was my problem. They tended to curl a little after some use and take some work to flatten.

From the business standpoint, they've managed to stay afloat, getting their revenue almost entirely from RPGs, and decently priced ones at that, for over 30 years — longer than TSR, White Wolf or SJG (which remains alive but has since transitioned, revenue-wise, from being the GURPS company to being the Munchkin company) — and that's considering the Crisis of Treachery!!!!!111!1!!one thing. They are obviously doing something right.

Gaming-wise, well, the only things I can really fault them are:

1. Featuring contradictory rules across supplements to the same edition of the same game. Get your shit together, Kevin.

2. Killing the tables for hand-to-hand combat modifiers and skill levels somewhere between PFRPG 1e and TMNT. WTF, Kevster. Tables are easier than keeping track of fucking modifiers, especially with character generation.

3. Catering to the toy-loving, moar dakka munchkins and releasing Rifts book after Rifts book packed to the gills with new toys, instead of developing the Rifts setting and giving GMs good game-table-ready material like the awesome Ciudad Juarez write-up in Vampire Kingdoms.

4. Dismissing critics as haters and having them banned over at the company forums (and the Palladium mailing list before that).

Buy not giving much of a crap about the system and focusing on making a fun game instead.

Yeah no other game gets you as fired up to play the damn thing as a Palladium game does...except DCC.

The Palladium system does have a whole lot going for it, the only thing they could really use is some decent layout and editing.  Taking away Kevin's exclamation point key wouldn't hurt.

Whatever else you have to say about the guy, he's a mad genius who lives and breathes his games.

Palladium settings are freaking awesome.

If you ever were curious about RIFTS, do yourself a favor a snag a used copy off eBay sometime. The system may make your head hurt, but hot damn the setting bits rock hard.

If you like Street level Supers or if you want a non-emo WoD, get yourself a copy of Nightbane. It's dark heroic, weird and dangerous. Ever see the movie Nightbreed? Yeah, its kinda like that.

Do you like Alien Invasion movies? If so, you really owe yourself a copy of Mechanoids. Totally underrated gem.

Rifts was a pretty awesome setting, Mechanoids and Mutants in Orbit were fun too. I was GM of a long campaign using Undersea and Japan, lots of fun.

Scraypers was a fun setting and could have easily been the default setting for Heroes Unlimited.

Off topic, but I have always had this vision of Palladium customers being entirely trailer dwellers from the south and weed-smoking pasty pony-tailed pizza delivery drivers from the midwest.

Still a big fan of Palladium Fantasy though.

I've always enjoyed the setting and the idea that you could (theoretically) almost take a workable character between settings with only a few hand waves...

Love the magic system above other games. It's clunky but the system has its own charm.

TMNT!

If that's not my top three, it's pretty close.

1) Art that looks like 70's-early 80's comic books.

2) The FUCKING INCREDIBLE Steranko covers on the two Heroes Unlimited editions.

3) A complete lack of any pretension.

Palladium games are fun.

I think that's about the only thing that really matters, isn't it?

Wolfen and alignments.

Another thing they got right was not jumping on the edition treadmil.
Much. Editions seemed to at least in the 90s be mostly art and some organization tweaks.

A word about Palladium's art:

I agree that Ramon Perez is crazy talented, but am I the only Vince Martin fan out there?

He seems to have dropped off the planet since RIFTS, but he set the look of Phase World for me.

Quote from: JamesV;765610A word about Palladium's art:

I agree that Ramon Perez is crazy talented, but am I the only Vince Martin fan out there?

He seems to have dropped off the planet since RIFTS, but he set the look of Phase World for me.

No, you're not. Vince Martin has some fantastic tech designs, but I find his style too "clean" for Rifts. But for Phase World, it works wonders.

My favorite artist for armor, 'bots and vehicles, and the man who defined what Rifts looks like, to me, was Kevin Long. Another great contributor that El Kevo Managed to alienate, BTW (jot that down as #5).

But Id say Ramón Pérez is the definitive artist for Rifts people, and scenes with people in them.

And one last thing about PB and their art:

The most important thing they got right for RIFTS was the Parkinson cover. I think it's one of his best pieces, and it really set the tone for the entire game.

Quote from: JamesV;765610A word about Palladium's art:

I agree that Ramon Perez is crazy talented, but am I the only Vince Martin fan out there?

He seems to have dropped off the planet since RIFTS, but he set the look of Phase World for me.

I liked his stuff, nice clean lines and some interesting alien and tech designs.

Circa 2002

C.J. Carella stated this on Long and Martin

QuoteSomeone was asking about them -- they were both let go from PB under less than cordial circumstances. Why? It wasn't because Kevin L wanted to leave the company to work in computers, or because he was ripping off mecha designs (two idiotic rumors some mouth breathers were spreading in another thread). There was a personal falling out in Kevin L's case, and as soon as the personal relationship deteriorates at PB, the work relationship goes to hell. In Vince's case, he was perceived as having divided loyalties (we were good friends, and after I left anybody I was associated with kinda fell into disfavor).
Last I heard from Kevin L he was doing some design work for computer games (it's been a while, though, so I have no idea what he's up to now). Vince got a Real Job (tm) and is now a rather happy family guy who games for fun. I still exchange e-mails with him, so I'll let him know people were asking about him.

Things Palladium got right:

1. Alignments that players immediately understand and can use in play
2. Differentiating between "Hit Points" and "SDC" (early precursor to Star Wars Saga Hit Points/Vitality Points)
3. Dynamic combat
4. Securing some amazing licenses - Robotech, TMNT - and treating them with true fanboy love and respect
5. Treating everything with fanboy love and respect. Ninja & Superspies martial arts still make me gleeful to learn kung-fu.
6. Amazing settings

Yes. They definitly treated their IP games with respect. Unlike some other companies.

They also secured some interesting IP specifically for Rifts like Wormwood and Scraypers.

Quote from: Omega;765715Yes. They definitly treated their IP games with respect. Unlike some other companies.

They also secured some interesting IP specifically for Rifts like Wormwood and Scraypers.

and Manhunter

Heard of. Never seen.

The internet is a wonderful, magical place where long out of print books can be found to download!

I saw it once at a game store and didn't pick it up because even though it said, Rifts, on the cover, it wasn't published by Palladium. I also didn't like the cover art. I think I bought South America 2 instead. Boy am I kicking myself for that one.

South America 1 sucked big time, but South America 2 is a black hole of suck.

I owned both at one point, I don't remember them being that bad. Why didn't you like them?

Quote from: The Butcher;766171South America 1 sucked big time, but South America 2 is a black hole of suck.

So, you think South America sucking is something they got right? ;)

Uh ... no? :confused:

Quote from: dragoner;766174I owned both at one point, I don't remember them being that bad. Why didn't you like them?

The same that's been wrong with every world book since Triax & the NGR.

Lots of power creep, and thinly spread world info.

Quote from: David Johansen;766178So, you think South America sucking is something they got right?

It's Rifts: South America, not Rifts: Your Mom.

Quote from: The Butcher;766198The same that's been wrong with every world book since Triax & the NGR.

Lots of power creep, and thinly spread world info.

Power creep in Rifts? Nooo ...

/hides Juicer Uprising and Phase World

Quote from: dragoner;766186Uh ... no? :confused:

Sorry, I meant the Butcher not you.  And I probably should put a quote and a smiley on there.  Laziness on my part.

Anyhow, I'm still not sure how Rifts South America sucking is in any way something Palladium got right.  I have a long list of complaints myself but I always think they got a great deal right at the outset.

Probably very a YMMV sort of thing.

Personally I felt the Africa and England books felt oddly... lacking in information on the area.

South America seemed ok. More middleground in background to me. Points of interest rather than a big zone or three.

Which isnt bad really. Gives lots of open area potential when you dont want to be grinding through some empire or whatever.

I've always wished the basic approach to attack/parry/dodge/attacks per round from 1E Palladium had gotten poached by D&D.

Plus I love that their classes are real things (like knights) instead of made up video game shite.

I loved the SA books, they helped me break the game "in game" and move on to White Wolf.:D

Quote from: Larsdangly;766211I've always wished the basic approach to attack/parry/dodge/attacks per round from 1E Palladium had gotten poached by D&D.

Plus I love that their classes are real things (like knights) instead of made up video game shite.

Opposed rolls are great in theory but BORING to casual players.

Trust me here. Ever wonder why Palladium is so niche even though it got heavy play by Dnd players? Or how about RQ? That game makes my eyes bleed. Why do you think NWoD was made for that matter?

Quote from: Marleycat;766268Opposed rolls are great in theory but BORING to casual players.

Trust me here. Ever wonder why Palladium is so niche even though it got heavy play by Dnd players? Or how about RQ? That game makes my eyes bleed. Why do you think NWoD was made?

I can't just "trust you" on such a sweeping statement. In my experience, players tend to try to get some kind of roll by GM fiat when one is not standard. The frequency varies, but it's not a casual/non-casual dichotomy.

Basically, I think RP is always presenting players with the question, "What do you do?" There's some resistance to feeling passive, and tossing the dice helps scratch that itch.

Heck, I have the kind of rational mind that figures the dice don't care who rolls them, so why should I? But just try taking the toss out of a player's hands in any game and see how that flies! Most people seem to have an instinctive lust to roll the bones.

Quote from: Phillip;766276I can't just "trust you" on such a sweeping statement. In my experience, players tend to try to get some kind of roll by GM fiat when one is not standard. The frequency varies, but it's not a casual/non-casual dichotomy.

Basically, I think RP is always presenting players with the question, "What do you do?" There's some resistance to feeling passive, and tossing the dice helps scratch that itch.

Heck, I have the kind of rational mind that figures the dice don't care who rolls them, so why should I? But just try taking the toss out of a player's hands in any game and see how that flies! Most people seem to have an instinctive lust to roll the bones.

Maybe for you but the proof is in the pudding. Older games have their niche but it's the middle ground games that most actually play and introduce to new people. And Dnd is classic middle ground once you get past OD&D at best. Likely most new players will grok nothing past 2e but actually 3e. Remember anything older then 2e actually assumed a wargame past.

some more stuff to add, at least with Palladium RPG 1st....

Love the combat system.  It comes across as a much simpler Hackmaster 5th(from what I recall of 5th).  Hit on a 5+, need to get the AR score or above to get through the armor, otherwise armor takes damage- which is SDC.  I like that in 1st, only armor is SDC.

The level charts for each OCC are awesome.  Super quick way of creating NPC's and or foes on the fly.

Yeah, the 'opposed rolls are boring' line is BS. Pendragon is definitely not boring, and its whole thing is opposed rolls.

Compare the 1992 edition of Gamma World (4th) and Rifts. They came out roughly at the same time.

I love that edition of Gamma World, ran many a happy campaign with it. All things considered it very playable.

However it is so uncool it's shocking. The book looks cheap, the gear retro but not in a good way. And just who thought it was a good idea to include skunk, mosquito, ostrich or octopus among the 20 odd character options? It is unsurprising that at the time so many people dismissed is too silly.

Rifts by contrast is tens more over the top and implausible than Gamma World but it's never in your face jarring. Things may not make sense, but Rifts knows how to get away with it and make it work in a dramatic sense. The art, the creativity and clever presentation managed to dial cool up to 11 and made you want suspend disbelief. You quickly snapped out of it when you tried to actually create a character by the rules.

But yeah, the contrast between Gamma World and Rifts pretty much sums up what Palldium was good at.

I have a lot of problems with Palladium that range pretty far all over the map, but I still applaud them for their sheer joy at what they do. That, and the scope of imagination displayed in their products is astounding. I can't think, offhand, of another company that have so many different products covering such a wide range of imaginative possibilities (er... other than Steve Jackson Games, which just came to mind).

I can still remember being a teenager and finding copies of the Mechanoids books and falling in love. Or being absolutely entranced with ARCHIE in Rifts.

Palladium has a voice and has continued to have that voice... Kevins.  After Gygax's TSR, it is the one of the last major names in roleplaying games to have this.  Luckily we live in era of roleplaying that has kept this alive through the OSR and indie publishing but try to find them on a bookshelf at the local FLGS.  With a voice there is passion, that passion leads to inspiration and possibilities.  

I gave away all of my Rifts books because the system drove me mad in play and sure as hell have had my criticisms of the company, yet I still own a fair number of Palladium Books (PFRPG, Heroes Unlimited, Ninjas & Superspies, and Robotech).  Maybe because the system was born from house ruled D&D or because of this, it's the most spectacular toolkit by example but it's still a source of inspiration for games.

Quote from: Gunslinger;767398Palladium has a voice and has continued to have that voice... Kevins.  After Gygax's TSR, it is the one of the last major names in roleplaying games to have this.  Luckily we live in era of roleplaying that has kept this alive through the OSR and indie publishing but try to find them on a bookshelf at the local FLGS.  With a voice there is passion, that passion leads to inspiration and possibilities.  

I gave away all of my Rifts books because the system drove me mad in play and sure as hell have had my criticisms of the company, yet I still own a fair number of Palladium Books (PFRPG, Heroes Unlimited, Ninjas & Superspies, and Robotech).  Maybe because the system was born from house ruled D&D or because of this, it's the most spectacular toolkit by example but it's still a source of inspiration for games.

That pretty much sums up my position as well.  Up to and including the part about giving away the Rifts books.

Quote from: Marleycat;766268Opposed rolls are great in theory but BORING to casual players.

Trust me here. Ever wonder why Palladium is so niche even though it got heavy play by Dnd players? Or how about RQ? That game makes my eyes bleed. Why do you think NWoD was made for that matter?

In my experience, pretty much everyone prefers opposed rolls.

I don't know enough about Runequest or NWod to talk about them.

I think Palladium's niche status now is mostly because of excruciatingly long delays and constant cancellations of books, bad press (deserved and not), and terrible editing.

Another thing I think Palladium does right is the X-Mas Grab bags. At least, they were a good deal when I used to buy them.

Also, the talk about South America 1 inspired me to come up with an alternate-timeline setting premise readable in the below blog link.

Quote from: The Butcher;766171South America 1 sucked big time, but South America 2 is a black hole of suck.

Yeah, but their South America related stuff in Robotech was fucking awesome.

In reference to the OP, I think Palladium Fantasy 1st was probably one of the best. The system grew for there, and now is kind of a clunky mess. Tried to run Rifts again last year, I got to session five before I gave up. A big agreement on the "whiff" factor problem that Palladium wisely solved.

On the subject of opposed rolls, I can say they slow play down quite a lot, and cause even dedicated players to become a little glassy eyed when a prolonged roll off (social or physical) occurs.

Part of why I've always loved Amber - you know who's going to win, now make an argument as to why we should break that rule. It keeps people engaged in the conflict.

Quote from: RPGPundit;768712Yeah, but their South America related stuff in Robotech was fucking awesome.

Are you talking about the stuff in the RDF Manual? Great random encounter charts, and an overall neat post-apoc world to play in. Visualizing Veritechs flying over slagged cities, wondering if a group of Zentradi was lying in cover, waiting to ambush you, it was a great setting. Also got me to look at the rest of the world in a new light, overall. Kudos to Palladium for that little book.

Quote from: Coffee Zombie;768731Are you talking about the stuff in the RDF Manual?

Not just there, some of the other adventure/sourcebooks covered South America in a lot of detail (especially Strike Force, if I remember correctly).

Pundy, why not offer to write South America Revisited?

Quote from: RPGPundit;768829Not just there, some of the other adventure/sourcebooks covered South America in a lot of detail (especially Strike Force, if I remember correctly).

Strike force had a lil bit of South America - it was mostly Southeast Asia, though. Zentraedi Breakout was all South America and was tits. I think the advanced training sourcebook also had a bunch of stuff for South America.

Quote from: RPGPundit;768712Yeah, but their South America related stuff in Robotech was fucking awesome.

I don't play Robotech.

Out of curiosity, what would you have liked to be included in the SA books? For me, I would have liked more political information; as in, how trade works between the different nations, how the black market is represented, flora and fauna (with stats), that kind of stuff. I thought the Anti-Monster was nifty, but given too much MDC. I liked the idea of the 3 lost cities in the jungle, but other than the slaver city, the execution was poor.
I guess I'm not really a fan of CJ Carella, although I liked Nightspawn.

Quote from: everloss;768917Out of curiosity, what would you have liked to be included in the SA books? For me, I would have liked more political information; as in, how trade works between the different nations, how the black market is represented, flora and fauna (with stats), that kind of stuff. I thought the Anti-Monster was nifty, but given too much MDC. I liked the idea of the 3 lost cities in the jungle, but other than the slaver city, the execution was poor.
I guess I'm not really a fan of CJ Carella, although I liked Nightspawn.

Everything you've said, plus:

Something about Brazil other than the jungle cities and the (ridiculous, hackneyed, stereotypical and poorly researched and thought out) "Kingdom of Bahia."

Less world-shattering super-tech that leaves the Coalition, the NGR and Jspan all in the dust. Anti-Monsters, the Megaversal Legion, the Babylonian-status-looking D-bees whose name I forgot, the genetically engineered Argentinean übermenschen... not only those things are overpowered, they are also crap. It's all about new toys and the setting information is even scarcer than infamous toy books such as the NGR one.

I really enjoy the South America books - are they perfect? Nope, but I've had fun with them.

My on/off Rifts campaign is about a rift storm that creates many nexus connecting SA, Russia and Atlantis and the aftermath that occurs. The rifts storm is expected to last an entire year and the campaign is about what happens when the 3 cultures clash...especially with the arrival of Atlantis.

Quote from: Spinachcat;768869Pundy, why not offer to write South America Revisited?

As much as I admire Palladium, I don't think I'd be a good fit as a writer there.

Quote from: JamesV;765257What Palladium got/gets right:

- Enthusiasm, that despite our jaded times, is often infectious. Why shouldn't a game remind people that it's supposed to be fun?

I agree with this one. I spent my entire high school life and most of my college one playing Palladium because it had this optimistic innocent excitement that was hard to resist.

I never really cared much for the system, and don't think I'd ever use it again, but I'm periodically tempted to warm back up to their settings.

I loved a lot of the gonzo stuff in Beyond the Supernatural.

UFOs were actually large psychic peaceful floating whale-like aliens.
The Negapsychic, who was a psychic who believed so strongly the supernatural didn't exist that his psychic powers shut them down.


Palladium is a kitchen-sink game. I liked the approach to alignment, though the rest of the system could really have used a few passes to boil everything down to something more compact (IMO).


Basically, I love Palladium books for wacked out material I then use in some other system.
It's sort of GURPS' twitchy ranty older brother in that respect, for me.

Quote from: RPGPundit;770129As much as I admire Palladium, I don't think I'd be a good fit as a writer there.

You mean you don't want to be paid a pittance, forced to sign a draconian scares lawyers NDA, have your ideas co-oped, rewritten wholesale, and any credit completely taken by Kevin. Huh...:p

Quote from: everloss;768917Out of curiosity, what would you have liked to be included in the SA books? For me, I would have liked more political information; as in, how trade works between the different nations, how the black market is represented, flora and fauna (with stats), that kind of stuff. I thought the Anti-Monster was nifty, but given too much MDC. I liked the idea of the 3 lost cities in the jungle, but other than the slaver city, the execution was poor.
I guess I'm not really a fan of CJ Carella, although I liked Nightspawn.

I don't recall the source, but I recall CJ saying at some point or another that he never used MDC in his games of Rifts.  That could be an explanation (not defense) for why things were out of kilter.  I've liked most everything else CJ has done for other systems, so I'm willing to give him a pass on the South America stuff (especially since I gave all my Rifts books away).  And I liked Nightspawn too (and didn't give it away).

Nightbane/Nightspawn holds up really well. For reasons I'm not exactly sure, but the game seems to have less mechanical hiccups than Rifts.

Quote from: RPGPundit;770129As much as I admire Palladium, I don't think I'd be a good fit as a writer there.

Yeah, if the stories I've heard about the work culture there as true any book you end up doing for Rifts ends up being Kevin's work with your name on it, and if you're lucky some ideas here and there which you can just about recognise as yours.

I loved South America and Africa as Palladium Settings... Loved (despite critics) what C.J. did with South America. Loved what Mark contributed with Mysteries of Magic-though I could see that there were two narratives (his and Kevin's) within the text of MoM book.

The writing I've e submitted is generally in regards to adding detail to these settings/ideas  (MoM-South America-Africa) as well as what the bulk of what I'll submit in the future...

I've submitting an entire book for (South America) the city of Manoa. The idea being that a lot of detail could and should be added to the setting.

I have hopes, but what Amateur freelancer doesn't.

The conditions under which Palladium Sets for writers/artists is in fact theirs to set, as far as the NDA goes. There is a level at which (no point to argue that fact), the type and quality of work that will bring...

Personally: 9 times out of ten; my own writing could use a edit/rewrite or two...

Just saying...

Quote from: everloss;768876Strike force had a lil bit of South America - it was mostly Southeast Asia, though. Zentraedi Breakout was all South America and was tits. I think the advanced training sourcebook also had a bunch of stuff for South America.

Ah yes, it was Zentraedi Breakout I was thinking of!

Quote from: Ronin;770169You mean you don't want to be paid a pittance, forced to sign a draconian scares lawyers NDA, have your ideas co-oped, rewritten wholesale, and any credit completely taken by Kevin. Huh...:p

Pretty much.

As noted elsewhere. One Palladium writer I was working with just quit, handed me the whole manuscript, and quit RPG freelancing totally.

Quote from: RunningLaser;765352Most of the games that I've read by them get you fired up to play in a way that other games could only dream of.

Many of the ideas and hooks present in Palladium's products are awesome.

I remember as a kid that their products were high value for a cheap price.

While their soft covers can and will de-laminate, the sewn binding is close to bomb proof.

Lastly- The Palladium Role Playing Game First Edition Revised is a masterpiece:)  It's the original next wave retro-clone.

I probably agree with most of the first page and all of this.  Some of the most fun I've ever had as a GM was my TMNT / Heroes Unlimited mixed game.  The laminating on Heroes Unlimited isn't looking too good these days. I just think of it as growing older with a friend.

Both of the systems really invited us to make the character types our own.  Bio-E was one of the most amazing things to me, at the time.

I especially want to agree about the fun.  The books seemed to trust that we knew how to play pretend.  I always felt like the rules implied: "You know how to play pretend. This only decides whether the bag guy got hit when you pointed your finger and said bang."  I try hard not to indulge in pure nostalgia.  The skills issue came up once or twice.  But, overall, it was about people having fun.

I have no beef with Palladium. It's just a game company. I think Ninjas & Superspies is a lot of fun and does exactly what it was meant to do in a contagiously enthusiastic manner. Same with Teenage Turtle Mutant Ninjas and Heroes Unlimited. Is the house system sometimes a little clunky? Guess so, but compared to what? Makes more sense to me than D&D. Not as sleek as WEG Star Wars, but maybe it shouldn't be as it's meant for a different style of play. Palladium evolved from house rules as I understand it, and it feels like it as some of it feels like improvements (or variations, if you prefer) on AD&D: the combat system in N&SS is a lot of fun; the opposed rolls make both fighters feel like they are actively involved in the outcome (and they are), hitting on 5+ makes morr sense to me than D&D's rolling vs. AC, Armor Rating is very nice...I think it's quite good. I have read opinions that the "mechanics need to evolve," but without explanation as to what that is supposed to mean. I wouldn't want Palladium if it suddenly became Cortex or WEG d6. And in addition to that addled, rambling list of things, Palladium games have a lot of charm.

As for behind-the-scenes drama, I have no interest in it. I'm just here for the games. Really interested in getting Revised Recon and 1st ed. Beyond the Supernatural and Systems Failure sometime. Sound like a lot of fun.

Palladium makes really fun games; the company is frustrating as all hell, but the games pass the crucial test: they're fun to play.

I seem to remember someone telling me that Kevin's beef with CJ's stuff was how deadly it was (massive damage). CJ had at one point commented how ridiculous it was that Coalition grunts carry a pistol, that generally couldn't even penetrate their own armor (the gun did 1d6 MD, had 10 shots; their armor had 50 MDC, making a kill unlikely, even if you hit with all 10 shots).

Different design philosophies. If HU taught me anything, is that Kevin likes slugging match attrition in his later games!

Are there "objectively better" games out there? Sure! But most of them are boring as hell. Palladium definitely puts a stamp on it's products, an originality I happen to like. It's not for everyone, but if you like one setting, it's likely you'll like most of Palladium's settings.

About my only real gripe, book-wise, is the Rifts: Ultimate Edition (R:UE) book; the original Main Book is better. It has a better tone, it doesn't read like a walking advertisement (not only for Promises for Power, but also their later game line! It almost felt like they were saying "You shouldn't have bought THIS book; you should have bought THOSE OTHER books."). I also wasn't a fan of a lot of the rule tweaks they brought in with the book (I actually think RIFTS and Robotech run better, using the earlier rules).

My 2 cents.

Quote from: Matt;776456Really interested in getting Revised Recon and 1st ed. Beyond the Supernatural and Systems Failure sometime. Sound like a lot of fun.

Systems Failure is awesome!!!

It's gonzo and easily the best organized Palladium book. It's a very playable game and its combo of modern-ish day + post-apoc + alien bug invasion really works at the table.

Quote from: Spinachcat;776486Systems Failure is awesome!!!

It's gonzo and easily the best organized Palladium book. It's a very playable game and its combo of modern-ish day + post-apoc + alien bug invasion really works at the table.

An organized Palladium book?

Sounds like Systems Failure could have been a cool TV series circa '99.

You've sold me on it.

Novastar, if an objectively better game is boring...is that not a contradiction?

Not at all, GURPS is way better than Palladium mechanically but Palladium will always outsell GURPS.

Settings and images sell games, not rules.

Quote from: David Johansen;776670Not at all, GURPS is way better than Palladium mechanically but Palladium will always outsell GURPS.

Settings and images sell games, not rules.

Wait, now we're talking about who sells more. How does that relate to a game being simultaneously "objectively better" and "boring"?

Quote from: David Johansen;776670Not at all, GURPS is way better than Palladium mechanically but Palladium will always outsell GURPS.

Settings and images sell games, not rules.

That's an odd example, given that sales is one of the few "objective" measures available, at least insofar as most of us agree that, all other things being equal, selling many units is objectively preferable to selling few.

I picked it because Palladium and GURPS are such polar opposites.  Palladium is haphazardly edited and organized, it's rules are more of a loose pile of ideas than a system, and it has pretty good art and fantastic, over the top settings.

GURPS is meticulously researched, edited, tested, and organized.  The cross references between books are solid.  But the art is pedestrian at best and embarrassing  at worst.  And the settings tend to be very rational and carefully thought out.

Yet, for all that GURPS even makes D&D look like an amateur production, it has never been able to beat Palladium's sales let alone contend with D&D.  Why?  Because Palladium is  fun and goofy and enthusiastic while GURPS is reserved and scholarly.

Quote from: Matt;776612Novastar, if an objectively better game is boring...is that not a contradiction?

Objectively better mechanically, and in presentation.

IMHO, I'm thinking of Mutants and Masterminds. It's a simpler math version of Hero (and has great Ramon Perez art!), but I'd still rather play HERO/Champions. Better yet, play Heroes Unlimited. Best yet, Marvel FASERIP!

But it is far easier to play an incredibly powerful character in M&M, than in HU. But HU has more heart, IME.

Quote from: Novastar;776862Objectively better mechanically, and in presentation.

IMHO, I'm thinking of Mutants and Masterminds. It's a simpler math version of Hero (and has great Ramon Perez art!), but I'd still rather play HERO/Champions. Better yet, play Heroes Unlimited. Best yet, Marvel FASERIP!

But it is far easier to play an incredibly powerful character in M&M, than in HU. But HU has more heart, IME.

I see what you meant. I actually agree pretty much with the order of preference as well. I own all of those games (and it seems like every other super hero RPG) but would probably play HU, MSH, or V&V over the others. V&V has a special charm all its own plus that great Jeff Dee art and a complete rulebook in (give or take) 50 pages.

Quote from: David Johansen;776855I picked it because Palladium and GURPS are such polar opposites.  Palladium is haphazardly edited and organized, it's rules are more of a loose pile of ideas than a system, and it has pretty good art and fantastic, over the top settings.

GURPS is meticulously researched, edited, tested, and organized.  The cross references between books are solid.  But the art is pedestrian at best and embarrassing  at worst.  And the settings tend to be very rational and carefully thought out.

Yet, for all that GURPS even makes D&D look like an amateur production, it has never been able to beat Palladium's sales let alone contend with D&D.  Why?  Because Palladium is  fun and goofy and enthusiastic while GURPS is reserved and scholarly.

And I love both GURPS and Palladium! But have no interest in D&D...it's a game I "end up" playing when I can't get a group to play anything else.

Yeah...I'd probably lean on GURP sourcebooks for information/ideas to power up my Palladium adventures.

Quote from: Novastar;776476... I seem to remember someone telling me that Kevin's beef with CJ's stuff was how deadly it was (massive damage). CJ had at one point commented how ridiculous it was that Coalition grunts carry a pistol, that generally couldn't even penetrate their own armor (the gun did 1d6 MD, had 10 shots; their armor had 50 MDC, making a kill unlikely, even if you hit with all 10 shots). ...

It doesn't bother me that an infantryman's body armor provides excellent protection against pistols. That makes sense.
What bugs me is that, under the rules as written, a 200 lb rail gun probably won't penetrate that armor either.
I've been experimenting with limiting the damage absorbed from a single attack to some fraction of the armor's total capacity (probably 1/4 to 1/3), with anything over the limit blowing through to the wearer.

I mainly use N&SS and HU for Green Hornet and Kato type of action, so the armor and armories issues have never come up for me. N&SS seems to do just fine; I just use HU to supplement it for other character types.

P.S. It's refreshing to see a thread re: Palladium that isn't just pissing all over Kevin Siembieda over whatever business practices or personality deficiencies folks don't dig. Gotta pick up a nice used copy of Systems Failure if I can get a good price!

I'm willing to give rail guns a little leeway, because while your firing at an incredible rate of fire, I imagine it's not very accurate. It's in the barrel for a fraction of a second (even less than a conventional firearm), no rifling in the barrel...

There's also the fact the bullet travels so damn fast, you're only way of tracking it is watching to see what gets messed up (or trusting your sight). What makes incendiary bullets work (tracer bullets), won't work with a rail gun.

We used to joke that only when you rolled a "4", did every bullet (40) actually hit the target. All the other times you were chewing up scenery...

...and sometimes scenery goes BOOM real good! :pundit:

I've been going over the RMB and several of the early world books working out a house rule system to speed up character creation and unify the dice mechanic while still keeping the feel of the game. I won't go into any of that here.

But I mention it because I've noticed that with a few exceptions, most of the OCCs are actually pretty balanced. And it hurts me to say that because I hate the conotations that word has in RPGs.

For example, a RMB Cyber-knight starts with around 100 MDC (cyber armor plus whatever body armor over it), plus a psi-sword they can use at any time, plus a handful of crappy psi-powers, plus a weapon (of players choice) for each of their Weapon Proficiencies. They also have martial arts combat.

A glitterboy has 770 MDC and a single weapon, that can only be used if it is effectively motionless.

A dragon hatchling has up to 600 mdc, no weapons other than a breath weapon, no magic powers other than highly inaccurate teleport, and very limited metamorphosis of 2 hours.

A vagabond pretty much has clothes and a backpack. and some chewing gum.

Say these three walk into a town. Weapons and armor have to be checked in at the city gate. Bye bye power armor. The dragon can walk around for 2 hours before scaring the living shit out of everyone and getting attacked by the city defenders. The cyber-knight is good, unless the city hates psionics (any city or town in the Coalition, and many outside of it), or associate him with an "evil" dragon. The vagabond walks through the gates with no problem, goes where he wants (if he doesn't look bad enough), and can just slink away when the rest of the group is fighting the city guard.

If you eliminate MDC and just use Hit points and sdc, they become a lot more... even, for lack of a better word.

Although, I tend to include role playing opportunities when I consider things like "balance." So I think I see it different than, say the 3.x and above generation.

In other news, I just flipped through Rifts Black Market and it's definitely the best Rifts book I've read in a decade. D-Bees of North America is a close second.

Quote from: Novastar;776888I'm willing to give rail guns a little leeway, because while your firing at an incredible rate of fire, I imagine it's not very accurate.

You imagine wrong.

The magnetic propulsion means that it is extremely straight coming out of the barrel, so no rifling is needed. The speed at which it moves means that crosswinds won't have as much impact on trajectory as slower objects.

Now a Glitterboy "shotgun" rail gun is something else entirely as spreading projectiles isn't how rail guns work.

Quote from: Dan Vincze;776876I've been experimenting with limiting the damage absorbed from a single attack to some fraction of the armor's total capacity (probably 1/4 to 1/3), with anything over the limit blowing through to the wearer.

Here's what I do.

Every 1 MDC your armor takes, you take 1 SDC. The armor absorbs/ablates tremendous energy and it damn well hurts when it happens. And you're thrilled because each of those SDC you take means you're not dead that many times over.

It also means you can knock out foes instead of killing them by blasting their armor apart and turning them into a fine red mist.

Quote from: snooggums;776947You imagine wrong.

O snap!

Quote from: snooggums;776947You imagine wrong.

Perhaps. But it works as well as other Handwavium about a man-sized PA being able to brace to use a railgun, and have a miniature nuclear reactor to power it...

Quote from: everloss;776945A vagabond pretty much has clothes and a backpack. and some chewing gum.

...and super powers, if you're using the Conversion Book...;)

One thing I liked about Palladium games over all other games of the time period, is the experience point system.

For a game that is always being looked down on for being combat heavy, the experience system gives very few XP for killing things. Discourages it, in fact. On the other hand, one could say it encourages killing LOTS of things, I guess

Quote from: everloss;777076One thing I liked about Palladium games over all other games of the time period, is the experience point system.

For a game that is always being looked down on for being combat heavy, the experience system gives very few XP for killing things. Discourages it, in fact. On the other hand, one could say it encourages killing LOTS of things, I guess

Definitely gives the gm latitude over how much xp to award.

Quote from: everloss;777076For a game that is always being looked down on for being combat heavy, the experience system gives very few XP for killing things. Discourages it, in fact. On the other hand, one could say it encourages killing LOTS of things, I guess

A game is only combat-heavy if that's what the players and GM are into. Palladium is neither combat-heavy nor combat-light. It maybe appears to be more combat-focused due to the number of pages devoted to detailing weapons.

Quote from: Matt;777187A game is only combat-heavy if that's what the players and GM are into. Palladium is neither combat-heavy nor combat-light. It maybe appears to be more combat-focused due to the number of pages devoted to detailing weapons.

I was referring to the general perception of the game, especially on internet message boards. When I ran it, my games were much more focused on role rather than roll. Palladium (TMNT, Robotech, and Rifts) were the games I cut my teeth on. I wasn't into fantasy or DnD until just a few years ago, and all the years of running/playing Palladium games has really influenced how I go about running other games.

It's rather surprising (to me) how common it is for opinions of Rifts to be based on house rules, GM style, and hear-say, rather than the game itself. Seemingly more so than for other games.

Quote from: everloss;777204I was referring to the general perception of the game, especially on internet message boards. When I ran it, my games were much more focused on role rather than roll. Palladium (TMNT, Robotech, and Rifts) were the games I cut my teeth on. I wasn't into fantasy or DnD until just a few years ago, and all the years of running/playing Palladium games has really influenced how I go about running other games.

It's rather surprising (to me) how common it is for opinions of Rifts to be based on house rules, GM style, and hear-say, rather than the game itself. Seemingly more so than for other games.

I think you're correct. I hear the system slammed by folks I suspect have never even cracked the spine of a Palladium game. I have never had any problems with it, but I also have never played any of the MDC games so maybe I have just missed them. I hear "the mechanics need to evolve," but no elaboration as to why or how. I think it's just one of those oft-repeated things people say to appear knowledgeable rather than admit ignorance or be shunned by those who say so. Oh well. I have fun with my games and that's all I really care about.

The PB system needs some work, but many systems do.

Palladium's attribute system and its skill system are unaligned, its chargen has troublesome loopholes and its combat system has ill-defined sections. In short, its a rough system for noob GMs and weak GMs.

But in the hands of an experienced GM, the PB system offers some great Actual Play bits - opposed attack/dodge/parry are awesome, as are Roll with Punch and the tactical use of actions by PCs and enemies.

Quote from: Spinachcat;777210But in the hands of an experienced GM, the PB system offers some great Actual Play bits - opposed attack/dodge/parry are awesome, as are Roll with Punch and the tactical use of actions by PCs and enemies.

Yeah, those are my favorite bits.

Quote from: Spinachcat;777210Palladium's attribute system and its skill system are unaligned

What does that mean? What is an "aligned" attribute and skill system?

Quote from: everloss;777076One thing I liked about Palladium games over all other games of the time period, is the experience point system.

For a game that is always being looked down on for being combat heavy, the experience system gives very few XP for killing things. Discourages it, in fact. On the other hand, one could say it encourages killing LOTS of things, I guess

I just dusted off my old Heroes Unlimited Revised book.  There is a list of sixteen ways to earn experience.  Only three of them directly relate to defeating an enemy.

I can remember running sessions where the point was to do weird comic book things instead of beat up on more bank robbers.  My players were rewarded for navigating through the story much more than for any of the fights they were a part of.

That completely changed my view of roleplaying, coming out of only the Marvel Basic Set beforehand.

Quote from: Matt;777271What does that mean? What is an "aligned" attribute and skill system?

Well GURPS has a Principled attribute to skill relationship but Palladiums is Anarchist.   Space Opera's is Diabolic.

Quote from: David Johansen;777297Well GURPS has a Principled attribute to skill relationship but Palladiums is Anarchist.   Space Opera's is Diabolic.

Surely having IQ bonus add to your Gymnastics skill should count as Miscreant?

Nah, it doesn't make sense but it's still consistent and uniform.

Quote from: David Johansen;777320Nah, it doesn't make sense but it's still consistent and uniform.

So, Aberrant?

"I like comedy jokes."

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;777311Surely having IQ bonus add to your Gymnastics skill should count as Miscreant?

I've never thought that the IQ bonus was as bad as the rep it gets. A body builder may be really strong, but that doesn't mean he's going to instinctively know where to put a spike when mountain climbing. A ballerina may be agile as fuck, but that doesn't translate to walking a tightrope across a gorge if they're not smart enough to check the speed of the crosswind.

The attribute system does bother me in that its pointless to attempt an attribute check when there isn't an appropriate skill, because the attributes are often too high to use a D20, and too low to use a D100. Also, Mental Affinity is clunky and doesn't make a lot of sense. Especially when a Wolfen only has 2D6 in it; meaning a 10 foot tall anthropomorphic wolf snarling while wearing plate mail and riding a mastodon isn't intimidating at all.

I've always used my own rules for MA (and PB for that matter), but I still think it's pretty ridiculous.

I should add that I do think different attributes should give a bonus to different skills. They started to do that with MA and PB with some skills in later books.

Well more seriously, Palladium actually just works the opposite way to every other RPG: skill bonus to stat, instead of stat bonus to skill. Like for physical skills.
It makes a certain sort of sense, kind of.

Quote from: Matt;777271What does that mean? What is an "aligned" attribute and skill system?

The Attribute System works in one manner and the Skill System works in another, unrelated manner. The two systems do not align to either work together or compliment each other. AKA, how do I make a check for lifting something?

Several attributes have inherent skills, like Charm/Intimidate and somehow those aren't skills like the skills in the skill section as they do not improve with leveling.

And I'm a Palladium fan. That's one of the system areas that must be fixed. In other RPGs, having a high Dex means a bonus to Dex skills. It's nothing that PB couldn't easily fix - and should have with Ultimate Rifts.

Why would you need to roll a check to lift something, though? You're either strong enough, or you're not. The Physical Strength attribute tells you how much you can lift and carry in pounds. If whatever it is is heavier than what you can lift, you can't lift it. Simple and makes sense to me.

Quote from: Spinachcat;777363Several attributes have inherent skills, like Charm/Intimidate and somehow those aren't skills like the skills in the skill section as they do not improve with leveling.

I agree.

Also, I think Ultimate Edition was a big disappointment, and other than a few of the updated OCCs, I don't use it.

I've never played or read Rifts so can't comment on it. The premise doesn't appeal to me.

Well, damned if all this Palladium talk didn't lead to me tracking down inexpensive used copies of 1st ed. Beyond the Supernatural, Systems Failure, Recon, and Advanced Recon. Total for all four was about $24.00 (U.S.). Not bad?

Okay, so there's Revised Recon, which is en route to me, Advanced Recon, which has extra stuff for the game and seems Vietnam-oriented, and I see there's a Deluxe Recon.

Anyone know what makes Deluxe different from Revised?

Quote from: Matt;779760Anyone know what makes Deluxe different from Revised?

As far as I know, Deluxe combines Revised and Advanced into one book.

Quote from: everloss;779764As far as I know, Deluxe combines Revised and Advanced into one book.

According to the ever-reliable Wikipedia, Deluxe is as you say plus a few new bells and whistles. But my Revised Recon arrived today and Advanced Recon arrived a day or two earlier so I've got plenty for now. Maybe someday I'll need Deluxe.

Funnily enough, the books arrived right as I am reading a couple of Gary Linderer's Vietnam memoirs. Good stuff.

Now I just need to get through the rules and find some players interested in the genre. Sadly, everyone I meet only seems to be interested in elves-n-hobbits stuff, which may be my least favorite genre for games.

Quote from: MrAndrewJ;777279I just dusted off my old Heroes Unlimited Revised book.  There is a list of sixteen ways to earn experience.  Only three of them directly relate to defeating an enemy.

I can remember running sessions where the point was to do weird comic book things instead of beat up on more bank robbers.  My players were rewarded for navigating through the story much more than for any of the fights they were a part of.

That completely changed my view of roleplaying, coming out of only the Marvel Basic Set beforehand.

Right.

And at the time Palladium came out with their game lines-it was all about killing monsters and looting their corpses in other games.

Their experience point system was/is defiantly something that advocates playing a role or better characterization from players.

I used to love Palladium's stuff.  Actually, no, I take it back, I STILL love a lot of Palladium's stuff.

For all the reasons already presented, but I love the underlying mechanics of the combat most.  The Parry/Dodge dynamic, the attacks per 15 seconds, all of that.  The bonuses I'll be the first to admit at a bit much, especially defensively, but they got the rest RIGHT.  In my opinion.

I am however, sad that I lost my Skraypers book to mice and bugs in my last place.  I LOVED that setting, more than any other in Palladium.

Quote from: JamesV;765610A word about Palladium's art:

I agree that Ramon Perez is crazy talented, but am I the only Vince Martin fan out there?

He seems to have dropped off the planet since RIFTS, but he set the look of Phase World for me.

I am also a big fan of Vince Martin. He is the reason why, despite the fact the Coalition is terrible militaristic and fascist police state, I cannot really hate it !

I was also the reason why I bought Mystic China but Wujick writing is the reason why I keep it.

The lack of smugness in the whole Paaldium products is a big plus in the navel gazing world of RPG !

I have done a macross game last week and it was a lot of fun for everybody !

The original Mechanoid Invasion!

I am still stunned how much fun this game is after all these years. It's my go-to Palladium game.

Just when you got passed the terror of the vast and unknowable universe as embodied by a fat bloke with a squid for a head, the cybernetic, psychic, descendants of humanity arrived in system wearing Black Sabbath tee shirts and began strip mining your star.  Horror doesn't need to be existential.

Whenever I read a Palladium book I want to run a campaign right away. I don't know exactly how they manage that : a mix of enthusiasm, good art, the O.C.Cs/R.C.Cs that awaken the 11 year old boy in me who collected action figures (Siembieda should be making toys by the way).

I do prefer 1st edition Rifts, Beyond the Supernatural and PFRPG to the 2nd edition books that I find more bloated and less evocative.

I even stopped trying to find an alternate system, now play consist mostly of "oh yeah roll a twenty-sided die and let's see what happens" and ignoring 90% of the rules.

Quote from: kobayashi;834617- snips - I even stopped trying to find an alternate system, now play consist mostly of "oh yeah roll a twenty-sided die and let's see what happens" and ignoring 90% of the rules.

Kevin Siembieda seems to do as you do ! ^_^ And Rifts 1st edition is indeed a glorious mess of a game !

Things it got right:

When hearing the term "Glitter Boy" made me think of something other than David Bowie.

Things Palladium got right?

Rereleasing Rifts under Savage Worlds.

*Hides*

Quote from: Certified;834784Things Palladium got right?

Rereleasing Rifts under Savage Worlds.

*Hides*

I can't see how that isn't a good thing. Palladium will probably sell a bunch of Rifts books to people looking for fluff and ideas for their Savage Worlds games. It will also possibly generate more interest in the IP for other deals, like movies and video games.
If it fails, Palladium still collects the licensing fee, and loses nothing.

Quote from: everloss;834960I can't see how that isn't a good thing. Palladium will probably sell a bunch of Rifts books to people looking for fluff and ideas for their Savage Worlds games. It will also possibly generate more interest in the IP for other deals, like movies and video games.
If it fails, Palladium still collects the licensing fee, and loses nothing.

Not going to find me complaining.  I love SW and I still love huge chunks of Rifts.

One thing Palladium gets right is ignoring armchair quarterbacks...or should that be businessmen...guys who have never run a business or been self-employed but magically have wisdom and expertise and know what Palladium should do better than a guy who has managed to be successful for 30+ years.

Quote from: Matt;835217One thing Palladium gets right is ignoring armchair quarterbacks...or should that be businessmen...guys who have never run a business or been self-employed but magically have wisdom and expertise and know what Palladium should do better than a guy who has managed to be successful for 30+ years.

Successful?  Not for the past 5 or so years.

Now, Siembeida has managed to stay afloat at least 25 years on his own, despite some pretty big bridge burning over those years, but I'm not entirely sure it's because of his business ability.

He does have a rather, uh, fervent following of fans, and they have helped him over the years.  But given the amount of money lost over the last 5+ years...

I admit, if he does go, I'll be sad, though.

Savage Rifts is a great idea. It think it will only do good for all involved.

Quote from: kobayashi;834617Whenever I read a Palladium book I want to run a campaign right away.

Absolutely. The enthusiasm in the fluff is infectious...until I look at the crunch and remind myself to strip mine the book. If I were to run Palladium Fantasy, there's no question it would be 1e. That game is truly great.

Quote from: kobayashi;834617I even stopped trying to find an alternate system, now play consist mostly of "oh yeah roll a twenty-sided die and let's see what happens" and ignoring 90% of the rules.

Agreed. This is why I run Mechanoids. I went back to the core of the system and I just tack on Rifts stuff I like. My campaign takes place in the Valhalla Nebula, a collection of cold planets with Norse gods getting whacked by Mechanoids and their giant bug allies. FOR ME, I get all the fun and none of the system headaches.

Regarding the business side of things, I think at this point, Siembieda has "won". Even if he were to declare bankruptcy tomorrow. He's outlasted just about everyone else, and in any industry, surviving on your own fucking terms for over 30 years counts as a raised middle finger to the haters and indeed to the entropic force of the universe.

Palladium is like a manufacturer of weird non-Euclidian buggy whips which has managed to survive into the automobile age on the strength of strong coffee, love of buggy whips, and dogged insanity.

Quote from: The_Shadow;835664Regarding the business side of things, I think at this point, Siembieda has "won". Even if he were to declare bankruptcy tomorrow. He's outlasted just about everyone else, and in any industry, surviving on your own fucking terms for over 30 years counts as a raised middle finger to the haters and indeed to the entropic force of the universe.

Palladium is like a manufacturer of weird non-Euclidian buggy whips which has managed to survive into the automobile age on the strength of strong coffee, love of buggy whips, and dogged insanity.

Well said.  He's doing something right with his company.

Quote from: David Johansen;765210Okay, Palladium tends to be a bit of a whipping boy but really there's a lot of things they get right.  

Alignments. Palladium got alignments to be much more understandable and useful then D&D.

Quote from: jeff37923;835669Alignments. Palladium got alignments to be much more understandable and useful then D&D.

I totally agreed on this with you ! Even if I do not understand the nuance between miscreant and diabolic, the way Paaladium hyandles makes for more sense to me than D&D's.

Quote from: jeff37923;835669Alignments. Palladium got alignments to be much more understandable and useful then D&D.

I always found them too defined, to rigid.  YMMV.

The thing they've gotten the most right is Attitude.

They are picking up Palladium Fantasy again (I have just recently bought the Bizantium book, which is bonkers, but fun), so they are good with me.

I started with Beyond the Supernatural, then moved to Rifts and never understood why so many people had problems with the rule set.  Roll to hit, roll for defense, take damage, run out of actions, move to nest round.  The skill system was percentile, but that didn't bother me either.  It's not like the games coming out at that time had consistent rules systems. Even now there are games which have consistent, but really bad systems.

I was a big fan of Long's artwork and the Rifts setting.  I grew less in love as more setting books came out (I think I started disliking them around World Book 7, though there were a few good ones later), but the initial idea was great.

Phase World is a pretty awesome setting.

Wormwood is pretty cool.

Mechanoids trilogy is a cool idea/setting.

I think I'm one of the few people who like mega-damage.

Kevin was just inducted into the Origins Hall of Fame!
http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=148470

Quote from: The_Shadow;835664Palladium is like a manufacturer of weird non-Euclidian buggy whips which has managed to survive into the automobile age on the strength of strong coffee, love of buggy whips, and dogged insanity.

So true.

Gotta love me a good buggy whip.

Quote from: Spinachcat;836327Kevin was just inducted into the Origins Hall of Fame...

Good on him, the man's a part of the landscape. The hobby would be different without Palladium.

OTOH, Kevin, you don't need to include that blasted copyright and trademark notice as your forum signature. Lay off the IP pedal a little!

Quote from: Spinachcat;836327Kevin was just inducted into the Origins Hall of Fame!
http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=148470

 

Awesome. He deserves it whether someone has a personal beef with him or not.

Matt, one does not simply have a "beef" with Kevin Siembieda.

At at minimum, one must have a laser pepperoni cybernetic meat horn stolen from an atomicpunk unicorn with Kevin Siembieda!

I don't make the rules, but we gotta follow'em!



....and I'm not actually kidding.

Palladium couldn't have a normal Kickstarter with some normal delays. Nope, the Robotech Tactics KS has become a mega-damage clulsterfuck of multidimensional epic destruction...Kevin just wrote a 17 page apology to the backers...which will probably need another 17 page apology to the apology. And here's the rub...the Robotech minis wargame is quite good.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/updates

Quote from: JamesV;836333OTOH, Kevin, you don't need to include that blasted copyright and trademark notice as your forum signature. Lay off the IP pedal a little!

At this point, and no pun intended, but it's his trademark.  It simply wouldn't be a Siembeida post if it didn't throw Rs, TMs and Cs all over the place.  It has a certain charm.

Quote from: Spinachcat;836346Matt, one does not simply have a "beef" with Kevin Siembieda.

At at minimum, one must have a laser pepperoni cybernetic meat horn stolen from an atomicpunk unicorn with Kevin Siembieda!

I don't make the rules, but we gotta follow'em!



....and I'm not actually kidding.

Palladium couldn't have a normal Kickstarter with some normal delays. Nope, the Robotech Tactics KS has become a mega-damage clulsterfuck of multidimensional epic destruction...Kevin just wrote a 17 page apology to the backers...which will probably need another 17 page apology to the apology. And here's the rub...the Robotech minis wargame is quite good.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/updates

Okay, I stand corrected via-a-via beef.

As for Kickstarters, my opinion is anyone who still puts money into one after what we know now about them is that a fool and his money were lucky to get together in the first place.

Quote from: Bloodwolf;836264I think I'm one of the few people who like mega-damage.

When I first heard about MDC, I thought of every powergamer I had ever met rolled up into one horrible cliche.  

Then I saw it in action.  One competent GM ran Robotech.  Another incredibly smart GM ran Rifts at a convention.  Both of them used the mechanics in ways that created fun games.  The mechanics themselves justify big stompy robots being in the same place as squishy humanoids.

I grew to like it, too.

Count me in as one of those people who likes MDC.

I've actually never played any of the MDC games so all I hear is disparagement for the most part. I'm more a N&SS or HU type.  Never gave a squirt of piss about Rifts or Robotech. How does MDC work? Isn't it 100 SDC = 1 MDC?

Quote from: Matt;836704I've actually never played any of the MDC games so all I hear is disparagement for the most part. I'm more a N&SS or HU type.  Never gave a squirt of piss about Rifts or Robotech. How does MDC work? Isn't it 100 SDC = 1 MDC?

Basically.

Quote from: Matt;836704I've actually never played any of the MDC games so all I hear is disparagement for the most part. I'm more a N&SS or HU type.  Never gave a squirt of piss about Rifts or Robotech. How does MDC work? Isn't it 100 SDC = 1 MDC?

Not quite.  The conceit is that yes, 100 S.D.C. does equate 1 M.D.C. but the difference is that non-MDC weapons will not scratch an MDC object.

So an SDC rocket launcher can do MILLIONS of points of damage, but it won't harm an object that has a single point of MDC.  Supposedly.

All I know about Palladium's RPGs is that they use perfect binding for their books. And I'm a huge fan of perfect binding. I wish SJGames had gone that route for all their GURPS sourcebooks.

I like MDC and honestly there is always something meaner and nastier to throw at your players.

I also like the whole XP system of the Pallaoium which is about solving problems, using skills and overcome obstacles and the fact that a level 6 PC is rather high leveled (My highest leveled PC was 5 and I had a blast with him).

Honestly, I think that the bad rep of Palladium comes from Kevin's shenanigans like his  oover the top protectiveness of his IPs, his legendary lateness (Mechanoid Space, anyone ?) which might be see as a part of his charm (or not).

The original corebook of Rifts, the first 2 world books, the mechaniod sourcebook and the frist 2 Phase world books are like gems to me and they are the pinnacle of what Palladium can produce (The first 4 Nightbane books are excellent too and I am not familiar with Palladium Fantasy).

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;836736All I know about Palladium's RPGs is that they use perfect binding for their books. And I'm a huge fan of perfect binding. I wish SJGames had gone that route for all their GURPS sourcebooks.

Is that the term for it?  The binding on Palladium's books are outstanding.  I've never encountered soft cover bindings that were more durable than the ones they use.  The only other stitched softcover I can think of is the new Savage Worlds Deluxe Explorer's Edition.  

The covers on Palladium's books will probably de-laminate, but that binding will not fail. Why other companies have not hunted down the print shop they use and get them to produce books is beyond me.  There's nothing worse than a game book to disintegrate while using.

Seriously, Palladium's books are the Glocks of the rpg book world.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;836733Not quite.  The conceit is that yes, 100 S.D.C. does equate 1 M.D.C. but the difference is that non-MDC weapons will not scratch an MDC object.

So an SDC rocket launcher can do MILLIONS of points of damage, but it won't harm an object that has a single point of MDC.  Supposedly.

Not quite. Any single attack that does over 100 SD in one instance will do 1 MD. A stream of bullets wouldn't work, but that rocket would. Are there even SD rocket launchers in MDC games?

Quote from: AxesnOrcs;836772Are there even SD rocket launchers in MDC games?

The Mercenaries book has a section (Golden Age Weaponsmiths (I think)) which explains that one can use an older SD rocket launcher to fire modified MD ammunition.  The damage is like 1d4x5 or something similar.

It also explains that the few tanks from the present can be modified with MD armor, but are not themselves initially MD.

So, I guess if the weaponry exists, the original SD ammunition must exist as well.

Quote from: AxesnOrcs;836772Not quite. Any single attack that does over 100 SD in one instance will do 1 MD. A stream of bullets wouldn't work, but that rocket would. Are there even SD rocket launchers in MDC games?

Not sure. The core rulebook lists a pre-Rifts, 20th Century rocket launcher's damage as "1D4 x 100 SDC or 1D4 MD" so make of that what you will.

Me, I'm on the fence about MDC. I used to live it but now I wonder whether Rifts wouldn't be better off if MDC was restricted to really big mecha and monsters, or done away with altogether.

If you are Palladium fan, I suggest checking out Splicers. It's their Biotech vs. Terminators RPG which has great chargen and exciting ideas, but as reviews have noted, there is a lot of work for the GM to do to create the setting for their campaign. If that playstyle is up your alley, Splicers delivers a great deal of gonzo fun.

SPLICERS (check out the images (https://www.google.com/search?q=splicers+rpg&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CDYQsARqFQoTCKOWqc2ClcYCFQkOrAodDlcAiw&biw=1366&bih=657))
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splicers

PB Page
http://palladium-store.com/1001/product/200-Splicers-RPG.html

DriveThru
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/64205/Splicers

Quote from: The Butcher;836824Not sure. The core rulebook lists a pre-Rifts, 20th Century rocket launcher's damage as "1D4 x 100 SDC or 1D4 MD" so make of that what you will.

The concept is even if you do 99 SDC damage, it only scratches the paint on an MDC item (no damage). Only when you tick over the hundred mark (or multiples of 100), will SDC weapons harm MDC items.

(i.e. a dozen guys fire rocket launchers at a single Coalition trooper in standard Deadboy armor (50 MDC); barring criticals (or the blasts throwing the soldier off a roof or something), the max damage will be 4800 SDC, or 48 MDC. Coalition soldier stands back up, and proceeds to murder the squad with his MDC laser pistol (1d6 MD, or rather 1d6x100 SDC damage).

...and that's why I use a 1:10 ratio instead.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;836733Not quite.  The conceit is that yes, 100 S.D.C. does equate 1 M.D.C. but the difference is that non-MDC weapons will not scratch an MDC object.

So an SDC rocket launcher can do MILLIONS of points of damage, but it won't harm an object that has a single point of MDC.  Supposedly.

Not true. The original rule book lists SDC rocket launchers as doing 1d4 and 1d6 x 100 SDC, or 1d4/1d6 MDC with a hit.

In fact, there are several weapons throughout the many books that are listed as both SD and MD due to the high amount of SDC inflicted.

If an SDC attack does over 100 damage in a single hit, it inflicts MD. The point of MDC is to prevent someone attacking a tank or giant robot by throwing a baseball at it and inflicting damage, because that would be silly.

If you want to gripe about damage within the combat system, look at an ICBM with a nuke; 3d6x10 MD with a blast radius of 50 feet.

The real problem with MDC and "modern combat" in Palladium's system is that it was written to be more gritty and "realistic," (in Kevin Siembieda's words) than the actual setting, which is over the top and ridiculous (in mostly a good way).

What Palladium got right? I've always been fond of the melee hand to hand combat system from Ninja's and Superspies, specifically. I like being able to make specific attacks and defend against them in like manner.

Any multiple of 100 SDC will do 1 point of MDC damage per 100.

The thing that I'm confused about with the massive SDC/ MDC thing is what happens to AR in this case since MDC objects don't have an AR. I mean, theoretically, I've never seen it come up but if your missile does say 250 SDC, if this is 'equivalent' to MDC does it ignore AR the way a real MDC attack does? Or should you pull out the Conversion Book and give the MD target an AR? And if not, should it also then ignore AR on SDC targets ?

SDC dmg versus SD targets.  AR applies.
MDC dmg versus MD targets.  AR does not apply.

SD doesn't convert to MD, it is just able to, with sufficient damage, harm an MDC structure (however lightly).

Quote from: Bloodwolf;837164SDC dmg versus SD targets.  AR applies.
MDC dmg versus MD targets.  AR does not apply.

SD doesn't convert to MD, it is just able to, with sufficient damage, harm an MDC structure (however lightly).

MD vs SDC, AR does NOT apply.

But SDC vs. MD ?
(assuming SDC damage is 100+ in one attack).

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;837168But SDC vs. MD ?
(assuming SDC damage is 100+ in one attack).

MD does not have an AR.  If according to everyone else (I no longer have my Rifts books, damn bugs and mice...) a 1D4x100 rocket (for example) does 100 SD, then the MDC object takes 1 damage.

Probably. The weird thing here would be, then, that the 100 damage rocket could do a point of damage to the MD creature, but might bounce off an SDC creature due to AR.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;837173Probably. The weird thing here would be, then, that the 100 damage rocket could do a point of damage to the MD creature, but might bounce off an SDC creature due to AR.

Actually, you got it wrong : if a weapon has MD capacity, it will ignore any AR except the cyber armor A.R. which 16. And the cyber armor is made of M.D resistant material.

Quote from: yabaziou;837174Actually, you got it wrong : if a weapon has MD capacity, it will ignore any AR except the cyber armor A.R. which 16. And the cyber armor is made of M.D resistant material.

Actually, the problem with that is that...  The A.R. 16 applies to anything that isn't the Cyber-armour.  The AR is supposed to represent the shot hitting something fleshy rather than the armour.

It's a messy patch for a system that didn't think it through.

I love a lot of stuff of Palladium's, as the Pundit said, the attitude is a big part of it, but the writing just engages you on a level that's interesting for me.

But the system?  That's a kludge that's best left behind in the AD&D days.  Which is also why I'm happy and hopeful that the Savage World's version comes out soon.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;837173Probably. The weird thing here would be, then, that the 100 damage rocket could do a point of damage to the MD creature, but might bounce off an SDC creature due to AR.

All Palladium games that I know of use ablative armor. Damage from attack rolls under the AR value is applied to the armor; above the AR value, to the wearer.

It's been a while, but IIRC, MDC supposedly does not use AR. If you have a 30 MDC bionic limb amd get shot by a laser pistol while naked, damage is applied to the limb before you get vaporized. Cyber-armor is a very specific exception, having an AR of 16, meaning a metal arm protects you better than subdermal metal plates implanted all over your body specifically to protect you; classic Rifts.

Quote from: yabaziou;837174Actually, you got it wrong : if a weapon has MD capacity, it will ignore any AR except the cyber armor A.R. which 16. And the cyber armor is made of M.D resistant material.

That's a reasonable way to rule it but I'm not entirely convinced that's what the rules-as-written are.

Quote from: The Butcher;837197All Palladium games that I know of use ablative armor. Damage from attack rolls under the AR value is applied to the armor; above the AR value, to the wearer.

It's been a while, but IIRC, MDC supposedly does not use AR. If you have a 30 MDC bionic limb amd get shot by a laser pistol while naked, damage is applied to the limb before you get vaporized. Cyber-armor is a very specific exception, having an AR of 16, meaning a metal arm protects you better than subdermal metal plates implanted all over your body specifically to protect you; classic Rifts.

Wow really?? Dammit Kevin! I didn't know that.
On the AR though - body armour is ablative yes, but creatures with an AR work a bit differently, and just take no damage if you roll under the AR.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;837202That's a reasonable way to rule it but I'm not entirely convinced that's what the rules-as-written are.

Then you should refer directly to the Rifts corebook (the orginal or the 2005 edition, pick your poison !).

MD is overkill and S.D armor rating do not apply.

And yes, the cyber amor rule sucks big time ! Even if it assumes that any hit is done in the main body and cyber armor is on the main body (and designed to protect it), Kevin S. felt the need for this stupid rule ... Ah, the humanity ! ^_^

Honestly, the Palladium system is not that wonky and many other rule systems have a lot of flaws ...

To add confusion, there are two different types of A.R. in Heroes Unlimited.  You have personal and bionic A.R. which reduces the S.D.C. of the armor if it's less than the A.R., otherwise it goes to personal S.D.C.  Robots and vehicle A.R. does no damage unless it exceeds the A.R.  

The first use of M.D.C. I am aware of, was Robotech.  Where M.D.C. was used to differentiate between Robotechnology & full-size Zentraedi vs. pre-Robotechnology & humans.  This starts breaking down a little when later supplements such as Southern Cross came out with the introduction of the Cyclones and personal M.D.C. armor.  

Both of these worked but the mishmashing of the Rifts setting causes some oddities because M.D.C. is no longer being used to differentiate just scale.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;837173Probably. The weird thing here would be, then, that the 100 damage rocket could do a point of damage to the MD creature, but might bounce off an SDC creature due to AR.

This is exactly how it works.  SDC armor will take damage, though (and not simply bounce off).  Just think of MDC as unbreachable super armor (until it is destroyed).

Quote from: The Butcher;837197It's been a while, but IIRC, MDC supposedly does not use AR. If you have a 30 MDC bionic limb amd get shot by a laser pistol while naked, damage is applied to the limb before you get vaporized.

This would only apply if you were shot in the limb.  Rifts does not have a standard/random hit location roll.  All shots are assumed to be at the main body, unless they are a called shot.

Things Palladium Got Right: making nerds argue about their rules online.

Quote from: Spinachcat;835347My campaign takes place in the Valhalla Nebula, a collection of cold planets with Norse gods getting whacked by Mechanoids and their giant bug allies.

Oh, I want to play in that game, like NOW! :D

I'd say they got Pantheons of the Megaverse right. I don't play Rifts, but I bought the book on the strength of this review (https://eternitypublishing.wordpress.com/2010/10/10/review-pantheons-of-the-megaverse/), and I agree with it 100%. Even if you don't play the RPG, this book is an excellent presentation of deities as dynamic, active characters in a game world.

Quote from: The Butcher;837197It's been a while, but IIRC, MDC supposedly does not use AR. If you have a 30 MDC bionic limb amd get shot by a laser pistol while naked, damage is applied to the limb before you get vaporized. Cyber-armor is a very specific exception, having an AR of 16, meaning a metal arm protects you better than subdermal metal plates implanted all over your body specifically to protect you; classic Rifts.

Actually, it is always, as far as I recall, been to "apply to armor first," as written in the books. So, MD wouldn't automatically apply to the bionic arm, since it isn't armor. That would only occur with a successful parry attempt and GM handwaving.

The Ultimate Edition of Rifts though, made ALL MD, no matter how much, apply to armor only from a single attack. Meaning, as written, hitting someone in Plastic Man body armor with a shot from a Boom Gun doing full damage, only damages the armor, leaving the now-prone and armorless person unscathed. Which is dumb.

Is only the Palladium FRPG 1ed revised on Drivethru? I can't seem to find the 2ed

Quote from: Scutter;837340Is only the Palladium FRPG 1ed revised on Drivethru? I can't seem to find the 2ed

I dunno but they seem to be a dime a dozen on the used book shelves.

Quote from: Scutter;837340Is only the Palladium FRPG 1ed revised on Drivethru? I can't seem to find the 2ed

I don't think they do.  I believe it's only first edition books of their game lines- 1st ed Palladium Rpg, 1st ed Rifts, ect.

Quote from: RunningLaser;837671I don't think they do.  I believe it's only first edition books of their game lines- 1st ed Palladium Rpg, 1st ed Rifts, ect.

i.e. only the books the company no longer sells (palladium keeps a huge backlot of it's own titles).

Quote from: Matt;837669I dunno but they seem to be a dime a dozen on the used book shelves.

Currently its mainly out of print titles but they have recently announced they are working on making a much larger collection of their books available on DriveThruRPG.

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=784:palladium-booksr-weekly-update-may-28-2015&catid=52:weekly-updates&Itemid=183

QuoteMeanwhile, Alex Marciniszyn has been put in charge of scanning the entire Palladium library of books for future release in PDF form. To insure high quality, Alex is scanning book pages from the original "paste-up" pages/keylines and digitally cleaning them. It's a time consuming process, but the pages are flawless. This means a much wider range of PDFs will be made available in the months ahead from Palladium Books and DriveThruRPG.com. Will Palladium offer PDFs of new releases when they release print titles? We haven't decided yet, but we're considering it. And have a few ideas on the matter.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;837160The thing that I'm confused about with the massive SDC/ MDC thing is what happens to AR in this case since MDC objects don't have an AR. I mean, theoretically, I've never seen it come up but if your missile does say 250 SDC, if this is 'equivalent' to MDC does it ignore AR the way a real MDC attack does? Or should you pull out the Conversion Book and give the MD target an AR? And if not, should it also then ignore AR on SDC targets ?

You ignore AR.  MDC objects don't have AR; the MDC quality supplants that, as any result of less than 100sdc does no damage at all.

No one seems to quite get my complaint.

I'll try explaining better.

Quote from: original Rifts, page 11Typically, only a mega-damage weapon can harm a MDC structure. SDC missiles and explosives that inflict over 100 SDC points of damage do inflict the equivalent of mega-damage. In these rare cases, approximately every 100 SDC points of damage equals one mega-damage point. Always round down SC damage. For example: a missile that inflicts 450 SDC equals 4 MD.

So it says equivalent to, it doesn't say that its exactly equal to mega-damage. The question being AR.

Say we take two of the 450 damage missiles above and shoot them at different targets - an SDC target with a natural AR and a MD target.
Say a martial artist with Wrist Hardening (4 MDC according to the Conversion Book) and a Ninja Turtle with AR 14 and 120 SDC (something like that - I don't have the book).
For the sake of the example, assume strike rolls of 11 for both attacks and no one dodges.

There's three ways to run it that I can see; I don't think the book really says.
-have the MDC guy vapourize while the SDC target is unaffected (attack didn't get past AR).
-rule that if 100 SDC equals 1 MD, the AR is also automatically bypassed. So both of them vapourize.
-give the MDC target an AR in this case, maybe using the Conversion Book.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;838045There's three ways to run it that I can see; I don't think the book really says.
-have the MDC guy vapourize while the SDC target is unaffected (attack didn't get past AR).
-rule that if 100 SDC equals 1 MD, the AR is also automatically bypassed. So both of them vapourize.
-give the MDC target an AR in this case, maybe using the Conversion Book.

None of the above.

Mdc guy takes 4 md, and 50 sd (the 4 md comes from the wrist hardening, the 50 sd comes from hit points and sdc).  You could rule that the 4 mdc armor absorbs the 50 extra damage when it ablates, but that is not btb.

Ninja Turtle's armor takes 450 sd points (because the attack did not exceed the AR, and was above a roll of 4, it damages the armor), anything over and above the armor's sd capacity(assuming said armor is below 450 sdc) damages the turtle, probably killing it.

MDC armor does not have an AR, except in specific (I think the cyber knight) situations.  If it does have AR, it works the same (AR would determine whether the armor or the victim takes the damage).

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;838045So it says equivalent to, it doesn't say that its exactly equal to mega-damage.

Also, this is a Palladium book, not a text book.  You can't pick apart words in the Palladium universe to try and rules lawyer or nit pick things.  If it says equivalent it means the same, at least in this context.  You are thinking too hard about this.  Simplify.

Quote from: Bloodwolf;838046None of the above.

Mdc guy takes 4 md, and 50 sd (the 4 md comes from the wrist hardening, the 50 sd comes from hit points and sdc).  You could rule that the 4 mdc armor absorbs the 50 extra damage when it ablates, but that is not btb.

Ninja Turtle's armor takes 450 sd points (because the attack did not exceed the AR, and was above a roll of 4, it damages the armor), anything over and above the armor's sd capacity(assuming said armor is below 450 sdc) damages the turtle, probably killing it.

MDC armor does not have an AR, except in specific (I think the cyber knight) situations.  If it does have AR, it works the same (AR would determine whether the armor or the victim takes the damage).

Well no, natural AR (as opposed to body armour) negates damage unless the roll equals or exceeds the AR.

I hadn't considered keeping the other guy's 'natural' SDC and hit points as extra points. Maybe, though the MDC rules generally say that MDC creatures do not also have SDC.  The hit points potentially are kept separate (its clear that T-men do that, for instance, since they're MDC but take damage 'direct to hit points' when animal or monster tattoos are destroyed) but 50 points is going to wipe most people's raw HPs.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;838045Say we take two of the 450 damage missiles above and shoot them at different targets - an SDC target with a natural AR and a MD target.
Say a martial artist with Wrist Hardening (4 MDC according to the Conversion Book) and a Ninja Turtle with AR 14 and 120 SDC (something like that - I don't have the book).

Palladium made this conversation and many easily weirder conversations seem commonplace.

That alone is worth the price of the books to me.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;838045No one seems to quite get my complaint.

I'll try explaining better.



So it says equivalent to, it doesn't say that its exactly equal to mega-damage. The question being AR.

Say we take two of the 450 damage missiles above and shoot them at different targets - an SDC target with a natural AR and a MD target.
Say a martial artist with Wrist Hardening (4 MDC according to the Conversion Book) and a Ninja Turtle with AR 14 and 120 SDC (something like that - I don't have the book).
For the sake of the example, assume strike rolls of 11 for both attacks and no one dodges.

There's three ways to run it that I can see; I don't think the book really says.
-have the MDC guy vapourize while the SDC target is unaffected (attack didn't get past AR).
-rule that if 100 SDC equals 1 MD, the AR is also automatically bypassed. So both of them vapourize.
-give the MDC target an AR in this case, maybe using the Conversion Book.

The way the rules work is this.

Two 450 SDC missiles strike an MDC target.  SDC is always rounded down when converting to MDC, so each missile does 4 MD.  The 4 MDC target is struck by 8 MDC and is blasted through.

Rifts Ultimate Edition, page 288.  It is also clarified in Rifts Conversion Book 1e, page 26.


The two 450 SDC missiles strike a SDC target with natural AR.  The roll is not over the AR.  The rules for natural armor say the missiles do no damage.  The fact that 900 SDC damage is done is irrelevant because the damage is natively SDC and Natural AR is present.

Rifts does not have the rules for Natural AR in the corebook that I could find, but Heroes Unlimited second edition clearly states on page 18 that an attack roll under the Natural AR does no damage.  Beyond that, the only important thing here is that the damage for the missiles is specified as SDC.  Since they are not natively MD inflicting, they do not ignore AR.


If the damage for the missiles was specified as MD, then things would be different.  Let's say the two missiles do 1d8 MD each, and the SDC target had an natural AR of 18 and 899 SDC.  Each of the two missiles does 4 MD for a total of 8.  This would completely vaporize the target because damage capacity of an SDC target is always rounded down when resisting MD.

Rifts Ultimate Edition omits the mention of how MD weapons interact with AR targets, but the original Rifts corebook states clearly on page 39 that MD weapons ignore AR completely.  This is also stated in an example on the previous page.

Rounding down SDC structures when hit by MD weapons is another thing not specified in Rifts Ultimate Edition that I can find, but it is specified in the original Rifts corebook on page 12.

Thanks!

Quote from: Gabriel2;838105Rifts does not have the rules for Natural AR in the corebook that I could find, but Heroes Unlimited second edition clearly states on page 18 that an attack roll under the Natural AR does no damage.

I hadn't realized that. I guess this explains why people generally don't seem to have heard of this? I'd likewise assume its true in Rifts and not included due to space, rather than deliberately cut.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;838114Thanks!


I hadn't realized that. I guess this explains why people generally don't seem to have heard of this? I'd likewise assume its true in Rifts and not included due to space, rather than deliberately cut.

I remember having an argument about how every different Palladium book having a different version of a rule, and this is exactly one example.

At the same time, the enthusiam and the writing style does engage the reader on a pretty cool level.  And let's face it, as people have said, they have mastered the art of perfect binding for their books, which means that they will last to spark these arguments until kingdom come.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;837181Actually, the problem with that is that...  The A.R. 16 applies to anything that isn't the Cyber-armour.  The AR is supposed to represent the shot hitting something fleshy rather than the armour.

It's a messy patch for a system that didn't think it through.

In this very particular case I'd agree.  Its telling that from what I recall, this rule was never used again for anything other than the cyber-knight.

Quote from: RPGPundit;838120In this very particular case I'd agree.  Its telling that from what I recall, this rule was never used again for anything other than the cyber-knight.

And Triax plain clothes armor.  Rifts Ultimate Edition states that non-environmental armors have AR.

The rules state that AR for MDC armor only comes into play on a called shot.  Otherwise MDC always absorbs damage.

Quote from: Gabriel2;838121And Triax plain clothes armor.  Rifts Ultimate Edition states that non-environmental armors have AR.

The rules state that AR for MDC armor only comes into play on a called shot.  Otherwise MDC always absorbs damage.

Hmm, I didn't remember that.

Quote from: RPGPundit;838322Hmm, I didn't remember that.

Because it is wrong, with the exception of plain clothes armor having an AR.

Some citation would be great.  I just went through the Ultimate Edition and there is no such mention of either of these things (called shot for AR, or non-environmental armor having AR).

Quote from: Bloodwolf;838342Because it is wrong, with the exception of plain clothes armor having an AR.

Some citation would be great.  I just went through the Ultimate Edition and there is no such mention of either of these things (called shot for AR, or non-environmental armor having AR).

Rifts Ultimate Edition p 355
And Armor Rating (AR) does not apply to MDC structures or armor unless the armor does not cover the entire body  Even then, the attacker has to take careful aim and make a Called Shot to hit an unprotected part of the body.

---

So, what these two sentences say is that when armor is partial or non environmental or has an AR, the attacker must make a Called Shot to hit the non MDC armored parts, and then must still beat the AR.

Of course, that also means a Plain Clothes Standard Jacket and Standard Vest don't ever use their AR in practice, but whatever.

Quote from: Gabriel2;838359Rifts Ultimate Edition p 355
And Armor Rating (AR) does not apply to MDC structures or armor unless the armor does not cover the entire body  Even then, the attacker has to take careful aim and make a Called Shot to hit an unprotected part of the body.

---

So, what these two sentences say is that when armor is partial or non environmental or has an AR, the attacker must make a Called Shot to hit the non MDC armored parts, and then must still beat the AR.

Of course, that also means a Plain Clothes Standard Jacket and Standard Vest don't ever use their AR in practice, but whatever.

So what's the A.R. of those items?

Quote from: Gabriel2;838359Rifts Ultimate Edition p 355
And Armor Rating (AR) does not apply to MDC structures or armor unless the armor does not cover the entire body

That's a weird extrapolation and is in fact the only time I have ever heard anyone make that suggestion.  Nothing in that section states MDC armor has AR.  In fact, the only thing it states is that, once Environmental armor reaches 15% of its MDC, it is no longer environmentally sealed.  I stand by my argument. You are wrong.

Body armor covers the entire body, unless it has an AR, not the other way around.  Body armor does not have an AR (with the exception of the clothing in the Triax book), therefore it covers the entire body.  Nowhere does it state that non-environmental armor has an AR.  Nowhere.

There are 2 cases of MDC armor with AR:  The Cyber Knight and the plain clothes armor.  Those two examples do not create a precedent for your statement that other types of MDC armor have AR.

I don't know what to make of that statement since it does seem to just be ditching the AR? Maybe too many cyber-knights were exploding?

When I think of 'partial' armour the first thing to come to mind is the Blind Warrior Woman MDC swimsuit (30 MDC according to Atlantis). It doesn't have an AR, but from the illustrations (e.g. main book) seems to leave a lot exposed...

The only thing I can find about AR and MDC armor is when SDC weapons are used against it...

Chaos Earth, page 151 "SDC weapons vs opponents in "partial" MDC body armor"
It lists two optional rules for this situation:
1. Require a called shot to target openings in the armor. A 12 or better is required to hit a stationary target, a 15 to hit a moving one, and a 17 to hit one moving really fast. A success means the MDC armor is bypassed and the target inside is hit. It makes a special note that without a called shot, strikes are assumed to hit the main body.
2. Assign the body armor an Armor Rating (GMs fiat). It makes a special note to ignore AR if the attacker is using MD weapons due to the "lethality aspect," with those hits damaging the armor first. It also notes that some SDC armors may have hundreds of SDC, making them equivalent to minor MDC. It does not address whether the MD attacker has to roll against the AR of the SDC suit, if the suit has minor MDC, though. Although it does suggest that AR isn't applied in that case with the last sentence of the paragraph; "In this case, every 100 SDC points equals one MD point." With the implication that MDC armor doesn't have an AR, therefore AR isn't used in this case.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;838386I don't know what to make of that statement since it does seem to just be ditching the AR? Maybe too many cyber-knights were exploding?

When I think of 'partial' armour the first thing to come to mind is the Blind Warrior Woman MDC swimsuit (30 MDC according to Atlantis). It doesn't have an AR, but from the illustrations (e.g. main book) seems to leave a lot exposed...

Duh!?

That's because in Rifts you shoot at the Armor. Not the exposed flesh-What's the fun in that?:)