1) most people don´t know shit about RPGs in general
2) most people don´t understand more GMing styles than one or two. This is especially true with Forgers.
3) most Americans watch too much TV
4) most Europeans know an order of magnitude less about RPGs than all others, Brits excluded
5) most current RPG-folks neither understand the meaning of the word strategy, nor of the word wargaming
6) many people who allegedly have university-level education are incapable of presenting sound arguments
7) many of those are incapable of differentiating between sound,false and irrelevant arguments brought forth by others
8) thusly, most of those folks couldn´t follow a regular publicistic debate
9) most people don´t understand the history of D&D
10) only two germans understand the history of D&D
11) internet debates have a memory, that is akin to a sieve, which is duct-taped haphazardly by the caring
12) most people have fun with their gaming
13) most people hava a hard time grasping other peoples fun sources
14) most GMs are doing okay for their groups
15) most people don´t know shit about the interrelations of GM techniques and player freedom, professionals included
16) most players don´t reflect on the game
17) forae thrive on people goofing off at work
and the most shocking revelation:
18) I have a better grasp on the actual play of RPGs than Ryan Dancey. Which still makes me sad.
Is this some kind of valedictory speech?
Years ago I went to the one given by Hugh "The Bat" Lloyd-Jones, on "Greek in a Cold Climate." Now that was a diatribe, holy shit.
Speaking of the classics: My command of Latin is risible.
That said, it's "fora," Settembrini.
FORA
Or, if you must, "forums."
Re. 10: Who, besides me, is the other German?
17 probably has a lot to do with 6,7,8 :)
What Settembrini is saying, in other words, is
"me smart, everyone else stoopid"
[/B]
This is part of a long and worthy tradition of internet discussions.
I learned basic HTML tags, myself.
Also, that there are lots of neat games I've not yet played.
I don't agree with all the points, but one I find very interesting. I used to take it for granted that rpg folks had at least a conversational background in wargaming, but I guess they don't.
Is that everyone's experience? When did that happen? How did that happen?
Quote from: stu2000I don't agree with all the points, but one I find very interesting. I used to take it for granted that rpg folks had at least a conversational background in wargaming, but I guess they don't.
Is that everyone's experience? When did that happen? How did that happen?
I'd say as early as Red Box D&D, latest, i.e. when D&D became a mass-cultural phenomenon as opposed to a surprising new invention that emerged from within the wargaming scene. As we know the Red Box sold like hot cakes, and to kids from all walks of life.
When I started out I played D&D and wargames simultaneously, but to me there was no connection between the two. I had no idea the one had grown out of the other.
Things I've learned:
- Finding a single fault in a game, no matter how small, is equivilent to hating that game
- Enjoying two different play styles is impossible, and might be sacriligious
- Game Balance is like unto a Gawd. Speak against it at your peril.
- Lots of people believe that sitting around thinking about gaming makes you as knowledgable as playing games
- I sometimes find myself floundering for a way to fully express my emotions if the website doesn't offer a :rolleyes: smiley
- If it's not "I agree with your position completely" it's somewhere between touchy-feely crap and bad logic
- If sixteen people engage in repeated arguments with and about one another, it constitues a war
- Citing your experiences in the real world is useless unless you show how it ties into the accepted theories
- People rarely know what the word "impossible" actually means. In general it's taken as "I can't do it, so nobody can."
- Taking a single piece out of a complex machine (such as a game system) and declaring that piece to be broken is not only an accepted practice, but the only way to get people to listen.
I guess the flgses I've always bought rpgs from have always sold wargames, too--letting me follow wargames, even when I wasn't playing them. Obviously, that's not how it's been for everyone, but I guess I had assumed it was.
See now McMurray is just cynical. Cynical I can empathise with, "me smart, u stoopid," not so much.
Of Settembrini's ranty list, I would only agree with 12, 14, 16 and 17.
It's true that most gamers are having fun, and most GMs are doing okay. It's also true that this fun happens without a lot of reflection or discussion in most cases.
And it's true that forums couldn't exist without people avoiding work in offices. This however I don't know what it has to do with roleplaying.
some number) Never let your off-topic or "tangency" area get bigger than your RPG section on a forum.
some other number) Try to be nice, you might meet these people in real life. (Hi Zachary!)
- Ed C.
I think a lot of those points might well be summed up in the following manner:
People don't really care about gm styles, the history of D&D, or other flame fodder as long as they're having fun, except for two Germans.
Well, well, not totally:
Of all those Germans, there are only two who understand D&D´s history.
There sure are a lot of non-German people being knowledgable about it, as the two Germans learned it from them.
Also, two is not neccessarily to be taken literally. But as I was asked, the other one is Dirk Remmecke. He contributed and is credited in the Rules Cyclopedia, go and check your copy today.
Rotwang has a point though. Obviously, one learns a bit more, as this constitutes some parts of the frame of reference.
I miss the HTML tags. [marquee] was my favorite. Besides, you could add crappy midi music files to your posts! And your own background textures--woodgrain, parchment, whatever.
Never were message board games more fun than circa 1999. php or whatever it's called is SO sterile by comparison.
Quote from: Stuart17 probably has a lot to do with 6,7,8 :)
Yes.
Quote from: Pierce Inverarityit's "fora," Settembrini.
FORA
Or, if you must, "forums."
It's funny that "forae" worried you, but "regular publicistic debate" didn't.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityWhen I started out I played D&D and wargames simultaneously, but to me there was no connection between the two. I had no idea the one had grown out of the other.
When I started gaming they were both closely linked conceptually and pretty much everyone I knew who played one had at least a passing knowledge of the other. But the split was already pretty apparent to me when I started college in '83; there were especially a lot of female RPG players who didn't seem to have much interest or knowledge of wargames. (This might be due to observer bias on my part. E.g., the nature of a group activity as opposed to the one-on-one of most wargames--I suppose the female gamers might have been playing wargames with their female friends. But I doubt it.)
Quote from: Kyle AaronIt's funny that "forae" worried you, but "regular publicistic debate" didn't.
It's not a common English word, but I think Sett's at least in the ballpark of correct usage. http://custom-writing.org/essays
And forums is more correct than fora, forum being a completely naturalised English word.
Elliot, would journalistic debate fit the bill better?
Some may remember that I started reading some english newspapers and magazines. Sadly the yield in a widened vocabulary was rather limited for me. The terms that I sought after weren´t there.
I will seek out an issue of the Atlantic, maybe that´s more fruitful. The magazine got some high profile coverage here for it´s 150th anniversary, it sounded like what I was searching for. The Times, for example wasn´t the quality newspaper I imagined it to be. All I got hold of on International Newsstands didn´t reach much higher than Newsweek-level-of-debate.
Quote from: Settembrini1) most people don´t know shit about RPGs in general
:D
Quote2) most people don´t understand more GMing styles than one or two. This is especially true with Forgers.
Of course. Because finidng new ways of GMing is BAD.
Quote3) most Americans watch too much TV
Everyone does.
Quote4) most Europeans know an order of magnitude less about RPGs than all others, Brits excluded
WTF?
Quote5) most current RPG-folks neither understand the meaning of the word strategy, nor of the word wargaming
And they don't need to.
Quote6) many people who allegedly have university-level education are incapable of presenting sound arguments
As in many universities don't train people for arguing. Of course, you are trained in the fine art of Declaring Yourself a Winner, which is known as The Ultimate Argument For Ultimate Power.
Quote9) most people don´t understand the history of D&D
And rightly so, as most people don't give a shit about that, and they don't need to, except for wanking over Internet.
Quote10) only two germans understand the history of D&D
Truly statistic in action.
Quote12) most people have fun with their gaming
Yep.
Quote13) most people hava a hard time grasping other peoples fun sources
Maybe.
Quote14) most GMs are doing okay for their groups
Most probably.
Quote15) most people don´t know shit about the interrelations of GM techniques and player freedom, professionals included
Most people are not writing a fucking thesis on that crap.
Quote16) most players don´t reflect on the game
And if they do they're called Swine, you hypocrite.
Quote17) forae thrive on people goofing off at work
Fuck yes.
Quote18) I have a better grasp on the actual play of RPGs than Ryan Dancey. Which still makes me sad.
What did I tell you abot declaring yourself a winner as the Most Lamest Thing Ever?
On the contrary, Mr. McMurray nails it.
I've learned about new games, new techniques, new ideas and known some interesting people. Other than that, finding that the web is full of retards is hardly breaking news.
Quote from: ImperatorOn the contrary, Mr. McMurray nails it.
Twice in one thread? Maybe I should declare victory and unplug my internet connection so I can go out on top. :)
Quote from: Kyle AaronIt's funny that "forae" worried you, but "regular publicistic debate" didn't.
What are you, some kind of a pedant?
Quote from: stu2000I don't agree with all the points, but one I find very interesting. I used to take it for granted that rpg folks had at least a conversational background in wargaming, but I guess they don't.
Is that everyone's experience? When did that happen? How did that happen?
When I started gaming in 1979, wargames were already "those other games, for old guys." Wargamers and roleplayers didn't hang out together, frequent the same shops, or even share a vocabulary. And this wasn't in a big city that could support lots of distinct hobby groups, but in a smallish place.
Quote from: SettembriniElliot, would journalistic debate fit the bill better?
Probably, although it also sounds kind of weird. I don't think the tradition is as strong as perhaps it once was. These days we have "op-ed" columns and on-air pundits, few of them very edifying. (Though I'm fond of the McLaughlin Group.)
QuoteI will seek out an issue of the Atlantic, maybe that´s more fruitful.
I'd also consider The Economist and The Nation. Maybe The Weekly Standard or The National Review on the right-ish end of the spectrum, or even Buchanan's The American Conservative.
The New Republic!
Quote from: Elliot WilenI'd also consider The Economist and The Nation. Maybe The Weekly Standard or The National Review on the right-ish end of the spectrum, or even Buchanan's The American Conservative.
For widening your vocabulary, The Economist and The National Review (right) or The New Republic (left) would be good choices. The Atlantic is probably a good choice, too. I don't think I'd recommend The Weekly Standard (right/neo-con) for vocabulary building, though the American Spectator (about as far-right as The Nation is far-left) might be useful in that regard (Ben Stein writes a column in it).
I'd avoid the mainstream American news magazines if possible. I get the impression that they write for an 8th grade reading level or less.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityWhat are you, some kind of a pedant?
Is this really the kind of accusation a guy who posts something like this
Quote from: Pierce InverarityThat said, it's "fora," Settembrini.
FORA
should be making?
Quote from: James McMurrayIs this really the kind of accusation a guy who posts something like this
should be making?
19) Given the variegated audience, irony, including self-irony, is a tool best avoided on internet foraeumsa.
I saw that one coming.
Quote from: Pierce Inverarity19) Given the variegated audience, irony, including self-irony, is a tool best avoided on internet foraeumsa.
All Americans are blind to irony, you facististical pedant!
-clash
Quote from: flyingmicefacististical
I'm afraid I'm not familiar with that term.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityI'm afraid I'm not familiar with that term.
:D
-clash
Well, I thought the list was amusing.
And I'm Old Geezer and I'm always right.
Quote from: Pierce Inverarity19) Given the variegated audience, irony, including self-irony, is a tool best avoided on internet foraeumsa.
19a) If you think you're being funny, odds are you're not, so include a smiley or two. :)
Quote from: James McMurray19a) If you think you're being funny, odds are you're not, so include a smiley or two. :)
Even better is the smiley that knows he's an idiot. :haw:
Quote from: StuartEven better is the smiley that knows he's an idiot. :haw:
The one I use? :haw:
-clash
1) Lots of people are scared little monkeys.
2) Monkeys fling shit.
Quote from: droog1) Lots of people are scared little monkeys.
2) Monkeys fling shit.
Most people, including myself, are funny little monkeys, with little red fezzes perched on our heads, holding out our cups for nickles.
-clash
Most people don't go to internet fora to discuss gaming.
Hell, most people don't discuss gaming at all.
Our hobby really is small.
Really small.
Quote from: flyingmiceMost people, including myself, are funny little monkeys, with little red fezzes perched on our heads, holding out our cups for nickles.
Well, I'm a leopard, and I'm going to eat your monkey ass.
Quote from: JohnnyWannabeMost people don't go to internet fora to discuss gaming.
Hell, most people don't discuss gaming at all.
Our hobby really is small.
Really small.
Bah! That's made up for by brilliant game designers like Kyle, who selflessly post in fora rather than designing awesome games, giving freely of their limited time!
:D
-clash
Quote from: droogWell, I'm a leopard, and I'm going to eat your monkey ass.
Well, people who eat monkey ass seldom brag about it, but perhaps it's different among leopards?
:D
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceBah! That's made up for by brilliant game designers like Kyle, who selflessly post in fora rather than designing awesome games, giving freely of their limited time!
:D
-clash
Well, this one's obvious. Although I'd substitute "selflessly" for "selfishly".:D
Quote from: flyingmiceWell, people who eat monkey ass seldom brag about it, but perhaps it's different among leopards?
Everything
and the ass, monkey.
Quote from: droogEverything and the ass, monkey.
Ah! Leopards have such a problem making themselves understood! They blame their big pointy teeth, but I just look at those low, sloping foreheads and shake my fez-covered, big-eared head... :O
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceAh! Leopards have such a problem making themselves understood! They blame their big pointy teeth, but I just look at those low, sloping foreheads and shake my fez-covered, big-eared head... :O
...and then get it bitten off...
Quote from: droog...and then get it bitten off...
The problem with eating monkey ass is you have to catch the monkey first! :D
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceThe problem with eating monkey ass is you have to catch the monkey first! :D
We leopards are good at it.
Quote from: droogWe leopards are good at it.
Ah well! I only have to be faster than the slowest monkey...
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceAh well! I only have to be faster than the slowest monkey...
And you are. I doubt I'll be eating you.
Quote from: droogAnd you are. I doubt I'll be eating you.
Then I shall be laughing and jeering at the slowest monkey, flinging poo with the rest as we celebrate not losing! :D
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceThen I shall be laughing and jeering at the slowest monkey, flinging poo with the rest as we celebrate not losing! :D
I love the way you're quoting everything so my monkey prey can see it.
Quote from: droogI love the way you're quoting everything so my monkey prey can see it.
Improves the monkey breed, my dear leopard!
-clsah
Quote from: KrommWhen I started gaming in 1979, wargames were already "those other games, for old guys." Wargamers and roleplayers didn't hang out together, frequent the same shops, or even share a vocabulary. And this wasn't in a big city that could support lots of distinct hobby groups, but in a smallish place.
I agree with this, although I started out in wargames before RPGs when I started in the late 1978 there was a difference between wargamers and roleplayers. AD&D had a lot to do with this with the three hardbound books and all. I didn't make the connection between OD&D, AD&D, chainmail, and wargames until I ran into a white box set two years later.
In my particular town we had RPG nights and wargames nights both of which we played the hell out of the game. We had a strong diverse neighborhood group at that time that lasted for several years until everyone went to college.
When Battlessystem came out started using it for AD&D and it was great. I still remember running Ragnarök scenario, dropping a line of 30 dragons (a combination of counters from battlesystem and the dragonlance battlesystem expansion), and the players mouth dropped. Now I could have mass battle with PC as PCs with very little compromise to their abilities. Then 2nd edition and my group switched to Fantasy Hero and later GURPS.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityThe New Republic!
Does the Website suffice? The Lions & Dumbs review was very good.
It´s pretty hard to get here.
Economist is no problem, still looking for the other stuff Elliot mentioned.
EDIT: This is awesome for the inner thesaurus! http://www.freerice.com/index.php
Quote from: SettembriniDoes the Website suffice? The Lions & Dumbs review was very good.
It´s pretty hard to get here.
I've never looked at their website in depth before, but, yes, it looks amazingly comprehensive.
Oh, and there's always the New Yorker.
The Daily Worker, on the other hand, is defunct.
Quote from: Old GeezerWell, I thought the list was amusing.
And I'm Old Geezer and I'm always right.
I'm Cerulean Lion and Old Geezer is always right.
[quickly gets offa Old Geezer's lawn]