Judging a game for its character sheet. Specifically, by its length.
Judging a game for its "cost per page," as if you were only buying a stack of paper sheets.
What about you?
There is some basis in truth for these things, though. The length of a character sheet can give you SOME idea about just how complex the game will be to handle.
And while obviously you want to look at quality as well, the price/page ratio is something to consider.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditThere is some basis in truth for these things, though. The length of a character sheet can give you SOME idea about just how complex the game will be to handle.
And while obviously you want to look at quality as well, the price/page ratio is something to consider.
RPGPundit
I agree, its sort of "this is a mark against a product" but won't be the only mark that makes a decision. Villains and Vigilantes still holds up for many people today and is very thin by modern gaming standards. It's not the thin-ness to me that hurts the game, but how its built, quality and content amount to quality. V&V is thin, but uses dense small print text.
Brave New world on the other hand split powers up between TWO books (published simultaneously), and overpriced for the content it did have (wide margins, above average sized text)--it was all about "selling more books and making more money", type decision that death knelled it for me.
It might have been a MUCH better game if it had condensed all the stuff it had ready to print into a single book, with smaller text for the same price, it might have at leased saved it on my shelf (so far only game book I've ever returned!)
What's wrong with looking on the character sheet before purchasing? It isn't of course the only information needed, but it can give some good hints:
How well is it organized for use in play? If the designers don't manage to organize it fpr maximum usability, the game is probably also badly organized.
Is there any decoration crap taking away valuable place? Then the game is probably also full of decorative and useless crap like flavour texts, more so if they need several pages while they could have easily needed less with less decoration crap.
And of course, it does also tell about the system... If there are 250+ skills with such highlights as "Shepherding" and "Pottery", I do know that it isn't a system for me.
Moreover, I have a certain comfort zone - one page for the sheet is perfect, two are acceptable, three are straining hard, and anything more gets either a large gaming time eater on the table, or I have to create my own evaporated sheet. I've done so in the past for some games as TRoS, but if they burden me with extra work they could have done, their system should better be damn well made otherwise!
(There are of course always exceptions - I like CP2020 despite the large skill list, and I like TRoS despite their many pages for the character sheet. These are exceptions though, not the rule.)
Cost per page though is something I don't follow. I experienced often that a 20$ book with 100 pages is better than a 40$ book with 350 pages. Overall price is a factor though.
Well, coming from a recent RPGNet thread: deconstructing RPGs.
No, actually. Deconstructing anything, games or literature or film or chopsticks. It turns people into petulant fun-killers, it makes us into those worn-out cynics who cannot appreciate good things in life, except as a self-referential quasi-joke which isn't really funny. It swaps our little dishonesties with the dishonesty of the illusion of being able to judge other people and fanding them wanting.
No, actually, fuck all that. I'll go, get some sleep and hopefully feel better tomorrow. :/
Quote from: JongWKJudging a game for its character sheet. Specifically, by its length.
Judging a game for its "cost per page," as if you were only buying a stack of paper sheets.
I wouldn't use either as the sole criterion for picking a game, but both are useful indicators. If, like me, you like streamlined role-playing games, checking out the character sheet in a game like
Aces & Eights or
Riddle of Steel warns you that this may be a bit on the crunchy/detailed side for you. If, on the other hand, you prefer to play something solid, mathematical and fine-tuned like
Hero and you take a look at the character sheet for
Dust Devils or
Wushu, you get an idea that this is going to be quite different.
As for cost per page, I have used it on occasion to compare books that had similar production value and scope, but very different prices. I only have so much money to spend... :(
QuoteWhat about you?
- Bashing people who merely like other things. There's space for everyone in the hobby.
- Division among ever-more finely split groups of fans.
- Me-too heartbreaker games made by people who didn't take the time to check what else is already available.
- People complaining about games they have not even read, let alone played.
- Missing the amazing parallels between haters of all stripes, be they from RPG.net, The Forge, EN World or The RPG Site.
Quote from: JongWKJudging a game for its character sheet. Specifically, by its length.
Define judging in this case?
Quote from: JongWKJudging a game for its "cost per page," as if you were only buying a stack of paper sheets.
Yeah, that one is fucking stupid and deserves contempt.
Quote from: JongWKWhat about you?
I'll raise your "cost per page" with the even more idiotic "cost per words". This was particularly prevalent with goofy, bearded gaming-dinosaurs in the 80s but unfortunately survived for a long time. I remember long flame wars in the early RPG.net days where basement-dwelling money-pinchers were whining pointlessly at the dreaded "white margins". As if anyone with a brain gives a flying fuck.
It makes me want to physically punch the clueless person.
Quote from: JongWKJudging a game for its character sheet. Specifically, by its length.
Judging a game for its "cost per page," as if you were only buying a stack of paper sheets.
What about you?
I'm with you on the first one. A long character sheet could be a good thing, especially if it has everything you will need in play. That is, you'd need never crack a book. It's easy to have a deceptively simple and short sheet then you find you need to constantly reference a book for modifiers, the numbers you need to roll against, what your spells can do, whip out a second sheet of paper to keep track of things in combat, etc. I like complete and well organized, 2 or even 3 pages is no big deal especially if in action situations (e.g., combat) all I need is on one page.
For me a long sheet can actually speed play. I'm all about front loading work to speed play.
Cost per page! Do people really think that way? Cost per % of the complete game your getting I can see, but per page seems to be losing the forest (a good game at a good price) for the trees.
Quote from: MelanWell, coming from a recent RPGNet thread: deconstructing RPGs.
No, actually. Deconstructing anything, games or literature or film or chopsticks. It turns people into petulant fun-killers, it makes us into those worn-out cynics who cannot appreciate good things in life, except as a self-referential quasi-joke which isn't really funny. It swaps our little dishonesties with the dishonesty of the illusion of being able to judge other people and fanding them wanting.
No, actually, fuck all that. I'll go, get some sleep and hopefully feel better tomorrow. :/
I could not agree more strongly. "Deconstructionism" needs to be cleansed with fire.
I certainly don't judge a game by the character sheet, but it's often a useful indicator of how much time I'll have to invest in getting to grips with the system. The busyness of the Burning Wheel sheet was enough for me to put the book back on the shelf. It looked like a cool enough game, but seemed far too time consuming for me to give serious consideration.
Guys, don't get me wrong. When I said judging by character sheet length, I mean people who actually declare a game "crap" or "awesome" depending on how many pages it has. As you might imagine, I think it is pure bullshit.
Saying that a game may be more or less complex based on what is on the character sheet... that's a different beast.
Yes, I can get on board with that. I've certainly seen 150 page RPGs that manage to stuff in more useful playability than other games do with 300-400 pages.
RPGPundit
Deconstructionism gave us some good stuff -- take "Astro City" for an example.
But notice I say "gave", as in "in the past", as in "thank you, drive through!"
EDIT: At one time, I enjoyed the notion: take X-nerdy-thing apart, see what it's made of, see what it's trying to say and put it back together again with your new knowledge.
But now, I say, give that Civil War soldier a cutlass and send him to Mars, because there's BEMs to fight and hawt topless princesses to mack on.
I wish the mania for expensive hardbounds would go away, or at least loosen its grip on the buying public enough to where publishers like WotC would find it worthwhile to produce less expensive, more convenient softcovers. I'd love to see more "pocket editions" of game books, like those produced for Savage Worlds and Conan.
Quote from: RPGPunditYes, I can get on board with that. I've certainly seen 150 page RPGs that manage to stuff in more useful playability than other games do with 300-400 pages.
Hell, sit down one day with the RuneQuest 2nd edition book on one side and the Mongoose RQ core rules, companion and monsters book on the other, and compare how much material is in one and how much is in t'other. There's
120 page games which pack in more playability than other games do with
3 freakin' hardcovers.
Quote from: RPGPunditYes, I can get on board with that. I've certainly seen 150 page RPGs that manage to stuff in more useful playability than other games do with 300-400 pages.
RPGPundit
Brown Box D&D, three half-size 36 page booklets.
Now available in PDF.
Come, join us....
:p
Quote from: JongWKWhat about you?
Oh, here's one thing I hope would go away: nostalgia. I'm freakin' tired of "good old days" talk. The good old days are
now.
I had some good old days, but I had some bad old days, too, so I don't wish to go back to old days at all. For example, I had a game group where I ran my most fun, satisfying campaign ever, with the players the most invested. But then I ran another campaign with three of the four same players, and it was a disaster, and the game group imploded, leaving me with just one of the original three, and not the new fourth, either.
I think that most of us, if we think back on our old game experiences, will have a similar balance - not necessarily those extremes of awesome and shit, but good and bad balanced.
So like Anemone, I'm focused on today.
Now, what would I like to see go away? Premature speculation. I realise it happens when you're young, but really it's quite embarassing to watch. You'll find out what the game's like when it comes out, and it'll come out when it comes out, some day. Patience, Grasshopper ;)
Quote from: Consonant DudeI'll raise your "cost per page" with the even more idiotic "cost per words". This was particularly prevalent with goofy, bearded gaming-dinosaurs in the 80s but unfortunately survived for a long time. I remember long flame wars in the early RPG.net days where basement-dwelling money-pinchers were whining pointlessly at the dreaded "white margins". As if anyone with a brain gives a flying fuck.
It makes me want to physically punch the clueless person.
This sort of miserly whining seems especially common among RPGers. I don't hear wargamers or euro boardgamers complain about cost per page/pound nearly as much as RPG players.
Not sure why that is. It seems a lot of hardcore RPGers have a need for a constant supply of new content. Doesn't seem to matter if it's especially good either - they just need their regular book fix. So they'll spend $25 a month on crappy products, rather than save for a couple months for a quality $50 product. I also get the impression RPGers are poorer than other gamers, but their relative poverty doesn't stop them from having a very high sense of entitlement.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonI wish the mania for expensive hardbounds would go away, or at least loosen its grip on the buying public enough to where publishers like WotC would find it worthwhile to produce less expensive, more convenient softcovers. I'd love to see more "pocket editions" of game books, like those produced for Savage Worlds and Conan.
I'll take your "expensive hardbounds" and raise "full colour illustrations". I like black and white! It looks great! It is very fitting for certain games! And it is cheaper, which means you can even hire better artists to do it!
Quote from: ColonelHardissonI wish the mania for expensive hardbounds would go away, or at least loosen its grip on the buying public enough to where publishers like WotC would find it worthwhile to produce less expensive, more convenient softcovers. I'd love to see more "pocket editions" of game books, like those produced for Savage Worlds and Conan.
I don't! I love my hardcover books. They just feel more...."real". If I have to choose between cheap-ass black 'n white softcover, or hardcover book with high production values, then I prefer the hardcover. That's just how I roll. :cool:
Quote from: Sacrificial LambI don't! I love my hardcover books. They just feel more...."real". If I have to choose between cheap-ass black 'n white softcover, or hardcover book with high production values, then I prefer the hardcover. That's just how I roll. :cool:
Problem is, when
every book is done as a hardcover, it greatly increases the shelf space needed. It's fine if one only has a few books, but if one has more than a dozen or so, it makes a difference.
Well, hardcover has at least some practical use, as it increases the durability of the books.
Overall I agree though that RPGs should get away from expensive glossy full-color and should be more aimed to be cheap practical tools.
I'll raise this by one more thing that should go away: "Useless fluff". Be it in-game fiction, description of the cuisine of a certain county or thrown-in gothic band quotes, they don't add to the value of the game but take away valuable space that could be filled with something actually useful.
Not that an in-game perspective isn't a viable perspective for some information texts (Sprawl Survival Guide for Shadowrun is a good example of that), and not that designers shouldn't aim to make their texts enjoyable to read rather then making them as interesting to read as a cooking book, but it should never be at the cost of usefulness.
Quote from: AnemoneOh, here's one thing I hope would go away: nostalgia. I'm freakin' tired of "good old days" talk. The good old days are now.
Whereas I'm sick of hearing how older rules sets are 'flawed' and 'damaged' and I'm stupid for still using them.
Maybe, just MAYBE, I can evaluate a rules set for myself.
Quote from: Old GeezerWhereas I'm sick of hearing how older rules sets are 'flawed' and 'damaged' and I'm stupid for still using them.
Maybe, just MAYBE, I can evaluate a rules set for myself.
Oh, man. I hate that. I play
Rifts, Rolemaster, Rules Cyclopedia D&D, and
Palladium Fantasy (among other games). So you
know I hear it. ;)
Quote from: Old GeezerWhereas I'm sick of hearing how older rules sets are 'flawed' and 'damaged' and I'm stupid for still using them.
Maybe, just MAYBE, I can evaluate a rules set for myself.
Nothing incompatible about both viewpoints. I like new games, I like old games, but mostly I like new games that retain the qualities of the old games while introducing their own new twists.
-clash
Quote from: JongWKJudging a game for its "cost per page," as if you were only buying a stack of paper sheets.
Feh. This would be a valid point if you were
only weighing cost per page.
When manufacturers try to sell my a 96 page B&W hardcover for $40 or somesuch, they deserve to get dinged.
Quote from: SkyrockI'll raise this by one more thing that should go away: "Useless fluff". Be it in-game fiction, description of the cuisine of a certain county or thrown-in gothic band quotes, they don't add to the value of the game but take away valuable space that could be filled with something actually useful.
IMO such things are out of place in a rulebook, or the rules section of a game that combines rules and setting. However, limited and thoughtful quotes to set scene and tone are helpful in a book or chapter that's about a setting, and what the people in a country eat, how they dress, and what behaviour they consider polite or rude when being greeted (for example) are very useful things to know
in text about that country.
Quote from: SkyrockI'll raise this by one more thing that should go away: "Useless fluff". Be it in-game fiction, description of the cuisine of a certain county or thrown-in gothic band quotes, they don't add to the value of the game but take away valuable space that could be filled with something actually useful.
Not that an in-game perspective isn't a viable perspective for some information texts (Sprawl Survival Guide for Shadowrun is a good example of that), and not that designers shouldn't aim to make their texts enjoyable to read rather then making them as interesting to read as a cooking book, but it should never be at the cost of usefulness.
As a writer and publisher, I've found out that for every player who hates fluff, there's another who needs it, and is lost without it. As an old grognard, I always despised it, but I now put it in every game in small amounts. I just can't write it myself, being no hand at fiction at all. If I keep it limited, us grognards only grumble a little, while the younguns only sigh a bit at the sparseness, and don't curse the lack. I blame White Wolf... :D
And no, fluff doesn't include necessary setting descriptions. :P
-clash
Small fonts. Especially on non-white background. Some people have eye conditions. Reading small fonts is a chore.
Game fiction. And I'm not a fan of fictional characters introducing me to the setting either. Make it as short and to the point as possible.
Iconic Characters: Worse, Iconic characters that already do all the cool stuff most players are going to think of for their own character... White Wolf LOVES this, man. Look at Scion: You have a scion of Thor (popular pick for norse gods... Comic books even pull it off...) with 'the worlds biggest revolver' as his god-given toy.
There are many other examples, but frankly, I don't like, need or want 'Iconics' telling me what my character 'could be'...if only the designer didn't get there first...:rolleyes:
The notion that a given playstyle is any better or worse than any other.
Also, the idea that to be 'adult', one must shock. Yes, White Wolf, I'm lookin' right at you, Tzimisce/Montreal By Night motherfucker.
I must be cranky today.
Quote from: Old GeezerWhereas I'm sick of hearing how older rules sets are 'flawed' and 'damaged' and I'm stupid for still using them.
Maybe, just MAYBE, I can evaluate a rules set for myself.
Hear, hear! It's like saying that people are nostalgic because they are reading Shakespeare or listening to the Beatles. Some things are just good.
Rules in the margins of pages. Grrrr. I don't mean examples or such, but actual, need to be referenced later, rules. If it's important, please don't put it in the margin.
Oh and rulebooks without a proper index.
And lastly, tables that are needed for play which are scattered thoughout the rulebook. I don't mind that as long as they are also all grouped together in a GM Screen or at the beginning or end of the book too.
Quote from: MelanI'll take your "expensive hardbounds" and raise "full colour illustrations". I like black and white! It looks great! It is very fitting for certain games! And it is cheaper, which means you can even hire better artists to do it!
Yeah. I love, I adore pretty RPGs, with beautiful art. But beautiful art is not synonymous with full color. For example, HARP and Ars Magica 3rd. They're both beautiful books, beautifully illustrated. But they're black and white. On the other hand, GURPS 4th might be full color, but it's not pretty. Be sure I bought GURPS 4th because I really liked the rules, not the art!.