Quote from: Thanlis;360745I like skill challenges. I understand that I am the only person in the world who likes them.

I don't know. My jury is still out on this one. I've played in WotC's skill challenges as interpreted by a new DM and didn't much care for them. I've written one, but not run it yet. I'll decide how much I like them after I see how much mileage I can get out of them.

Seanchai

I'll just point out that the "let's change the rules to make the mage less sucky at low levels" has pretty much been SOP for D&D since day 1.  It's right up there with "I don't like how AC works" and "I hate hit points" in the trinity of the top reasons people kept making D&D clones.  Large portions of the gaming population have always had issues with how mages, AC, and HP worked.

Also, do we really need whiny arguments about how X or Y doesn't qualify as "innovation" because somebody kind-of sort-of did something not quite the same but remotely similar years ago?  Can't we just accept the definition of "innovations" as being "positive changes for D&D and similar style games"?  Do we really need pedantic arguments over semantics yet again?

I think one of my problems with it all is that the rules have been changed from a mechanical perspective to balance the game but there hasn't been enough of a 'fluff' based explanation of it.

So I like the idea of Hit point recovering quickly. If they truely do represent luck and endurance and skill as turning that deadly blow into a scratch then they should recover quickly but for that to'work' there has to be an effect of damage that you didn't dodge in time.

The same is true of magic. in the old versions there was reference to the fact that spells were memorised but the effect of casting the spell released energies that erased it. So that was a pretty daft bit of fluff but one that holds up well in Vance and in the Amber books where a hung spell is realeased in much the same way. Likewise a Spell point system where spell of different levels cost varying points due to their power makes sense. It provides a nice in game explanation of how the thing works. They seems to have dropped all that for the purposes of game balance so now there is no attempt to explain in game effects other than to say these are the rules.

Take daily and per encounter powers. If a Fighter uses a special move that move is not deemed magical but he can't use the same move again until tomorrow? There is no logic to this in game other than to say that is the rule.

From a game balance perspective great but from a role-play immersive perspective it's a bit crap.

I think this outweighs most of the good stuff (the varying Power sources being a good thing).

Quote from: IMLegend;360796Key words bolded. House rule. I'm pretty certain we're talking RAW here. Otherwise what is the point to this whole discussion? You can house rule away anything, anytime.

Then we can't talk about OD&D in this thread.  There's no RAW there.

Quote from: jibbajibba;360828From a game balance perspective great but from a role-play immersive perspective it's a bit crap.

This.  And -

DM: Okay, you strike the ogre with your Silvernipple Raptor Strike.  Also, one of your buddies within ten feet can spend a healing surge.  Oh, and pick an enemy to slide as well.
Player: Awesome!!!  
DM: Next round, what do you do?
Player: Silvernipple Raptor Strike!
DM: No, you did that already.

Quote from: winkingbishop;360848DM: Okay, you strike the ogre with your Silvernipple Raptor Strike.  Also, one of your buddies within ten feet can spend a healing surge.  Oh, and pick an enemy to slide as well.
Player: Awesome!!!  
DM: Next round, what do you do?
Player: Silvernipple Raptor Strike!
DM: No, you did that already.

"He looks prepared for that; perhaps because he's just seen it."

God, you're unimaginative.

Quote from: jrients;360847Then we can't talk about OD&D in this thread.  There's no RAW there.

I'm cool with that. No more OD&D allowed in this thread then. So let it be written, so let it be done.

No?...damn...I tried.

Quote from: Thanlis;360851"He looks prepared for that; perhaps because he's just seen it."

God, you're unimaginative.

So? Shouldn't prevent one from trying it anyway.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;360750Darts + a bearer to carry more (plus flasks of oil, and a hired linkboy to carry a lamp from which they may be lit) makes the magic-user a tad bit more useful than anyone's giving credit, in older editions.

Quotebecause if you can't think of ways to play the character so they're actually useful (like I outlined above), maybe a pen and paper RPG is a bit much for you.

I want to play a magic-user, not a tomb raider that runs around with a cart of lawn darts and who hurls moltav cocktails lit by a lamp carrying street urchin. Who happens to cast a spell once a day. What literature has that?

Guess I need to turn in my roleplaying card then. :rolleyes:

Having to discern what Gygax et al "really meant" decades after the fact just reinforces that they should have written more clearly in the first place. I shouldn't have to have say a degree in Obscure Fantasy Literature Analysis just to play a game as the authors intended.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;360758So you...never read Jack Vance.

As someone who really likes Vance and even more obscure authors, I'll be the first to admit that he's not highly read and never has been, even with the free advertising from AD&D. While he provided Gygax with a germ of an idea to balance his game Cugel et al aren't what most people think of when they picture a wizard.

Nor was D&D Vancian magic terribly Vancian. Dying Earth RPG did a better job, but then again D&D wasn't just a Dying Earth RPG.

Quote from: Thanlis;360851"He looks prepared for that; perhaps because he's just seen it."

God, you're unimaginative.

Do all the monsters suddenly have a hive mind?

Quote from: Casey777;360859I want to play a magic-user, not a tomb raider that runs around with a cart of lawn darts and who hurls moltav cocktails lit by a lamp carrying street urchin. Who happens to cast a spell once a day. What literature has that?

Guess I need to turn in my roleplaying card then. :rolleyes:

Having to discern what Gygax et al "really meant" decades after the fact just reinforces that they should have written more clearly in the first place. I shouldn't have to have say a degree in Obscure Fantasy Literature Analysis just to play a game as the authors intended.

Halle-fuckin-lujah!

So in order to make my wizard a worthwhile contributor in combat I have to:

1. make sure I'm proficient with darts.

2. make sure I have a high enough dexterity to really utilize any thrown object.

3. purchase darts and flasks of oil over and above all the usual equipment and spell components for a wizard.

4. hire and pay an underling NPC specifically to run around and light my little
puddles on fire and hold my hand.

Yeah, sounds like a whole bunch of extra fucking around and expense just to be more useful than that one spell a day.

Quote from: winkingbishop;360848DM: Okay, you strike the ogre with your Silvernipple Raptor Strike.  Also, one of your buddies within ten feet can spend a healing surge.  Oh, and pick an enemy to slide as well.
Player: Awesome!!!  
DM: Next round, what do you do?
Player: Silvernipple Raptor Strike!
DM: No, you did that already.

This was a constant headache with "I Improved Trip him" guy in my 3.0 campaign, but then he was eaten by a purple worm and that was the end of the problem.

(Of course, the same problems can arise with "I hit him with my longsword" guy if that's all there is to combat. One trick ponies are no fun.)

Quote from: kryyst;360862Do all the monsters suddenly have a hive mind?

You, too, are an unimaginative idiot.

Seriously. Any time you find yourself critiquing any RPG by making up a dialogue between two people who could not play their way out of a paper bag, you have failed. You are proving yourself incapable of intelligent conversation. Don't be that person.

The example was one of two things: either a player who didn't bother to read the rules, or a player who read the rules but wanted to be a douche to the DM. "Ha ha, look at me, I'm going to point out that I can't use my encounter attack twice in one encounter instead of trying to work with the DM. My critique of the system is more important than working with the rest of the table to enhance immersion. My penis is better than you."

I have so little tolerance for that shit I can't even begin to tell you.

btw, if anyone's interested in actually fucking talking about the question -- which I think is a really interesting one, I just don't buy it as this crippling "ha ha I gotcha!" flaw -- I'm hearing Martial Power 2 talks about it. I don't know if it's any good or not. I mentioned earlier in the thread that the fluff in Primal Power was good; this sort of attempt to conceptualize powers is what I was thinking of. Hopefully MP2 is also good.

Quote from: Thanlis;360872btw, if anyone's interested in actually fucking talking about the question -- which I think is a really interesting one, I just don't buy it as this crippling "ha ha I gotcha!" flaw -- I'm hearing Martial Power 2 talks about it. I don't know if it's any good or not. I mentioned earlier in the thread that the fluff in Primal Power was good; this sort of attempt to conceptualize powers is what I was thinking of. Hopefully MP2 is also good.

Fuck! That reminds me...I need to go buy that!

I too like the "Zap", however, it really only fits well into high-magic worlds.  I like the Dragon Age implementation better, where a mage needs a staff or wand to cast Arcane Lance.

Ritual magic is always welcome.

As far as resource management for magic goes, I liked Shadowrun 2nd ed with the drain mechanics.  If you managed the Force of the spells properly and didn't sustain tons of spells, you could cast all day.  If you went for uber-pwnage, you got wiped out quickly.

Considering hit points really aren't supposed to be wounds, but getting tired, etc... I like the idea of healing surges, but the implementation sucked.  What they wanted was a steady stamina-regen like you get in video games, but ticking off hps regenning every round is hard to keep track of, hence healing surges.  They should have tried not to mimic the mmog experience too closely for healing I think.  It's great for playing WoWRPG, not too good for anything else.  A Wound/Vitality system would have suited them better.