Well, there are quite a few, but this one in particular occured to me.

In fiction, the heroic warriors are often able to fight off the vile sorcerer's hypnotic magic through force of will, but one thing that can easily lay them low is "cheating", such as using poison.

But in D&D, that is reversed. A 10th level fighter has a Fort save of +12 or more (counting a high Con and a cloak of resistance), but probably a Will save of like +5 (average Wis, the same cloak). So he laughs at most poisons, but will almost certainly fall prey to mind-affecting magic (an equal-level caster will have a DC of 20+ on his highest-level spells).

Now, I see why this is done from a gamist standpoint (the fighter is the one that has to get into melee with things like giant spiders, and thus needs the Fort save), but it still irks me.

Unfortunately, those lone warriors against the evil sorcerer types tend to have--in game terms--high stats in just about everything. In an actual game, rules require some form of balance. In order to replicate the warrior of mighty will, you'd need to up his WIS stat at the expense of his CON stat. Not the most elegant solution, given the need for high hit points, but for d20, it's the best solution.

I think this is a standard problem: most RPGs have difficultly replicating many types of related fiction. But maybe that's just me.

Take care all.

mmmh... there's that old saw, the "iron will" feat to boost the will saves, but I agree, nerfing a fighter's Con is wrong for survivability potential...

Think of it, I don't know any system where fighter types are weaker than nerd types against poison... seems that high CON (or its equivalent) is a bonus to both hit points and poison resistance in most systems.

On the other hand, you'll notice that "warriors of strong will" in literature are usually Conan types with high stats across the board.

Maybe they're Knights. :mischief:

Nah, I dunno.

Quote from: DackeWell, there are quite a few, but this one in particular occured to me.

In fiction, the heroic warriors are often able to fight off the vile sorcerer's hypnotic magic through force of will, but one thing that can easily lay them low is "cheating", such as using poison.

But in D&D, that is reversed. A 10th level fighter has a Fort save of +12 or more (counting a high Con and a cloak of resistance), but probably a Will save of like +5 (average Wis, the same cloak). So he laughs at most poisons, but will almost certainly fall prey to mind-affecting magic (an equal-level caster will have a DC of 20+ on his highest-level spells).

Now, I see why this is done from a gamist standpoint (the fighter is the one that has to get into melee with things like giant spiders, and thus needs the Fort save), but it still irks me.

Fiction can be about one single person who must do it all.

Gaming is usually about the team/group.  Only some of the team must resist.

I think the problem is that there are two things going on here.  First you are equating most movie heroes, which as Xavier mentioned are usually solo efforts, to a game that is geared more towards team balance.

Secondly you are trying to put a rule to a dramatic story telling effect.  Poison effects the body assuming you can resist it through being physically strong 'CON' (or whatever game equiv) is going to be the stat to do it.  Will power may help you along but ultimately it's your body that is doing the majority of the resisting.  If you have a food allergy it's much the same way.  You can try and fight it off as much as you want perhaps forcing your body to try and not throw up.  But once your throat starts to swell and your breathing is hampered you aren't 'willing' that attack away.  It's all about how well your body fends off the attack.   Even a bee sting has a similar effect.  You can will away the pain but it's your body that will decide on how bad the swelling is going to get.

D20 makes these sorts of differences more apparent as characters level up the differences between their strengths and their weaknesses become more diverse (assuming you don't multi-class).

Other systems like Shadowrun, Warhammer, WoD, Riddle of Steel or most systems that have less of a static character path allow for a player to develop a more rounded character so these sorts of situations only crop up less regularily.

The same thing has been bugging me, but in a different way...

The whole "Save negates" aspect of Poisons and Diseases rubs me the wrong way.  I've been considering options to make them "Save partial" instead...  After all, when you're poisoned, you're poisoned.  You may be able to resist the effects, but it should have some effect, regardless, even if it's just "sickened" or "fatigued".

Quote from: CyclotronThe whole "Save negates" aspect of Poisons and Diseases rubs me the wrong way.  I've been considering options to make them "Save partial" instead...  After all, when you're poisoned, you're poisoned.  You may be able to resist the effects, but it should have some effect, regardless, even if it's just "sickened" or "fatigued".

I seem to remember some posions in D20 working this way and most in Warhammer work this way.  You have a primary and a secondary effect.   So when you are hit by the poison.  If you make your save you take the primary effect which might be some immediate damage, stat drain, sleep etc... if you fail the save you take the secondary effect which is the worse of the two.  Typically death, perminent stat damage, on going damage etc...   Some of the poisons with ongoing effects allow multiple saves against them to eventually resist them.

Quote from: kryystI seem to remember some posions in D20 working this way and most in Warhammer work this way.  You have a primary and a secondary effect.   So when you are hit by the poison.  If you make your save you take the primary effect which might be some immediate damage, stat drain, sleep etc... if you fail the save you take the secondary effect which is the worse of the two.  Typically death, perminent stat damage, on going damage etc...   Some of the poisons with ongoing effects allow multiple saves against them to eventually resist them.

Yep...  That's exactly the sort of thing I'm thinking of...

Quote from: DackeNow, I see why this is done from a gamist standpoint (the fighter is the one that has to get into melee with things like giant spiders, and thus needs the Fort save), but it still irks me.

Welcome to the wild, wild world of "D&D is not like the fiction it supposedly emulates." In this hand I have a red pill. In the other, a blue pill. If you take the blue pill it... uh, I think it's raspberry flavored. The red is cherry, I think. Or cinnamon. I forget. But choose, choose, choose!