My perspective is that the D&D thief is not actually a thief—a criminal who steals things—even though the rules push that interpretation of the class. Lamentations of the Flame Princess gets it more right by changing the class title to "specialist". This character has skills that are useful for exploring D&D-style dungeons. The whole, "build a hideout, and then a thieves' guild" element of the rules for higher-level thieves seems tacked on to me. The idea that "thieves might steal from party members" is stupid, if the player does not envisage his character prone to that type of behavior.

The D&D thief made his money by exploring ancient ruins and twisting labyrinths, not by breaking into houses and banks, or extorting money from the small businesses in his neighborhood. What would the D&D thief know about running a successful criminal enterprise—anymore than a fighter, cleric, or magic-user? A magic-user would have an advantage if he wanted to engage in extortion rackets. "Pay the protection money or meet my little friend!" *casts magic missile—the proper one, that hovers threateningly over the magic-user's shoulder for ten minutes* The cleric would be in a perfect position for conducting blackmail. "Lord Sherman just made his weekly confession; now I will write an anonymous letter, threatening to expose him if he does not send money."

D&D thieves can pick locks and find traps, for sure, which would be useful for breaking into places. But he can make more money by using those skills in a dungeon—in the D&D world(s).

I posit that, instead of a thieves' guild, the D&D thief should have access to an organization similar to the old explorers societies. A dungeoneers' guild, where dungeon survival techniques are taught and practiced. Members can study maps of explored dungeons, sit in plush chairs by the fireplace to read the guild books about the exploits of past members, learn how to read ancient languages and eventually how to cast spells from scrolls (without, apparently, needing to cast "read magic" first). When the D&D thief acquires enough money, he can start his own dungeoneers' club, where members pay dues and training fees.

A better word might be 'technician', but that would generally indicate someone from a more modern time.

I don't really have a problem with the thief as a thief. None of the other classes are dungeon-specific, after all. They're fighters, not tunnel warriors. Magic-users, not underdark mages. They're all roles that exist in the world outside graph paper maps. They just happen to possess skill sets that make them useful to the average adventuring party.

The closest archetype is probably the tomb robber.

You can certainly use that interpretation in your world of course, but that was not the original concept. The Thief was designed to be either an active or former thief, a criminal.

In LotFP, the Specialist can take other skills, unrelated to thieving. Early D&D doesn't give the same options. Thief meant Thief.

Adventures in Middle Earth re-brands the class as Treasure Hunter and 5e calls it the Rogue, and they give various options to be something other than a criminal. These are fun classes and work well, but are certainly an evolution away from the original concept.

Quote from: Pat on January 24, 2022, 07:44:57 AM
I don't really have a problem with the thief as a thief. None of the other classes are dungeon-specific, after all. They're fighters, not tunnel warriors. Magic-users, not underdark mages. They're all roles that exist in the world outside graph paper maps. They just happen to possess skill sets that make them useful to the average adventuring party.

The closest archetype is probably the tomb robber.

That's it.

I'm closing the thread.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 24, 2022, 06:50:05 AM
A better word might be 'technician', but that would generally indicate someone from a more modern time.

"Technician" is perfectly acceptable, since D&D is anachronism stew.

Quote from: Pat on January 24, 2022, 07:44:57 AM
I don't really have a problem with the thief as a thief. None of the other classes are dungeon-specific, after all. They're fighters, not tunnel warriors. Magic-users, not underdark mages. They're all roles that exist in the world outside graph paper maps. They just happen to possess skill sets that make them useful to the average adventuring party.

The closest archetype is probably the tomb robber.

Quote from: Vidgrip on January 24, 2022, 08:13:36 AM
You can certainly use that interpretation in your world of course, but that was not the original concept. The Thief was designed to be either an active or former thief, a criminal.

In LotFP, the Specialist can take other skills, unrelated to thieving. Early D&D doesn't give the same options. Thief meant Thief.

Adventures in Middle Earth re-brands the class as Treasure Hunter and 5e calls it the Rogue, and they give various options to be something other than a criminal. These are fun classes and work well, but are certainly an evolution away from the original concept.

(Ackshuwallie, you make a good argument; the fighter, cleric, and magic-user want someone who can quietly open locks and figure out if treasure chests are trapped. Thieves do such things professionally. My beef is that the class as presented seems shoehorned into being a criminal. I disagree with such restrictions.)

In my opinion, the best example of a D&D thief is Indiana Jones.

Al Capone, not so much.

Quote from: cavalier973 on January 24, 2022, 08:31:21 AM
In my opinion, the best example of a D&D thief is Indiana Jones.

Al Capone, not so much.

Indiana Jones doesn't just steal a few coins from the people, he steals their cultural heritage while leaving destruction in his wake.

Are you familiar with Fritz Leiber's Nehwon stories? The thieves guild of Lankhmar seems to be the primary inspiration for the thieves of D&D.

DCC offers an interesting variation in that one's particular skills vary by alignment, or at least how they advance.  That strikes me as a good way to do it.

Quote from: Pat on January 24, 2022, 08:40:18 AM

Quote from: cavalier973 on January 24, 2022, 08:31:21 AM
In my opinion, the best example of a D&D thief is Indiana Jones.

Al Capone, not so much.

Indiana Jones doesn't just steal a few coins from the people, he steals their cultural heritage while leaving destruction in his wake.

Are you familiar with Fritz Leiber's Nehwon stories? The thieves guild of Lankhmar seems to be the primary inspiration for the thieves of D&D.

Yeah, that's true, but Jones also kills National Socialists, which makes it okay.

I will seek out the Newhon stories. Thanks for the recommendation. I thought that D&D thieves were based on Lieber's Gray Mouser—a little bit of theft, a little bit of magic.

Quote from: cavalier973 on January 24, 2022, 08:55:53 AM
I will seek out the Newhon stories. Thanks for the recommendation. I thought that D&D thieves were based on Lieber's Gray Mouser—a little bit of theft, a little bit of magic.

Gray Mouser is one of the two main characters in Leiber's "Newhon" stories. Newhon is the world Fafhrd and Gray Mouser live in. The idea of a Thieve's Guild comes from those stories as well.

.

Quote from: Zalman on January 24, 2022, 10:11:31 AM

Quote from: cavalier973 on January 24, 2022, 08:55:53 AM
I will seek out the Newhon stories. Thanks for the recommendation. I thought that D&D thieves were based on Lieber's Gray Mouser—a little bit of theft, a little bit of magic.

Gray Mouser is one of the two main characters in Leiber's "Newhon" stories. Newhon is the world Fafhrd and Gray Mouser live in. The idea of a Thieve's Guild comes from those stories as well.

I unironically love the Nehwon mythos in Deities & Demigods.  Esp. Faf & Mou's stats!   

But all this is relative... I mean, the conquistadors thought they were doing great things by stealing and looting and bringing their fine religion to the savages.

Were they ethical to do so? Well, they themselves would have said 'absolutely.'

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 24, 2022, 11:15:31 AM
But all this is relative... I mean, the conquistadors thought they were doing great things by stealing and looting and bringing their fine religion to the savages.

Were they ethical to do so? Well, they themselves would have said 'absolutely.'

Honestly, everyone involved was some variation on asshole and I find myself rooting for the diseases or animals to kill off as many of them as possible.