If i was going to worry about sciencing-up something like this, I'd be less concerned with mammals transforming into avians or reptiles and more concerned with the sudden gain/loss of substantial mass in the transformations.

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 12, 2022, 03:16:16 PM
If i was going to worry about sciencing-up something like this, I'd be less concerned with mammals transforming into avians or reptiles and more concerned with the sudden gain/loss of substantial mass in the transformations.

Who's "sciencing-up" anything? I'm restricting myself to what has been the mythology. The original mythology not that new fangled "mythology" of recent decades.

As for the mass diferential... It's magic!

  Xyience IMO.

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 12, 2022, 03:16:16 PM
If i was going to worry about sciencing-up something like this, I'd be less concerned with mammals transforming into avians or reptiles and more concerned with the sudden gain/loss of substantial mass in the transformations.

Operation Chaos and a few other novels have covered this. In OC the main character is a werewolf. And in wolf form has the same general mass. They face off at one point with a weretiger who is a large and fat man to have the mass to go to tiger. In both cases there was no humanoid middle form. They went straight to animal. But retained their minds. There were various techniques to allow them to change like flashbulbs that strobed at just the right frequency as moonlight. The setting was pretty much what you'd get if D&D made it to the modern era. Magic bolstered by science.

In another book theres a woman who changes uncontrollably. To change back she has to eat alot otherwise shes stuck.

And other examples where the mass factor was in play.

Quote from: Omega on March 13, 2022, 02:42:28 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 12, 2022, 03:16:16 PM
If i was going to worry about sciencing-up something like this, I'd be less concerned with mammals transforming into avians or reptiles and more concerned with the sudden gain/loss of substantial mass in the transformations.

Operation Chaos and a few other novels have covered this. In OC the main character is a werewolf. And in wolf form has the same general mass. They face off at one point with a weretiger who is a large and fat man to have the mass to go to tiger. In both cases there was no humanoid middle form. They went straight to animal. But retained their minds. There were various techniques to allow them to change like flashbulbs that strobed at just the right frequency as moonlight. The setting was pretty much what you'd get if D&D made it to the modern era. Magic bolstered by science.

In another book theres a woman who changes uncontrollably. To change back she has to eat alot otherwise shes stuck.

And other examples where the mass factor was in play.

Faith Hunter's main character Jane Yellowrock, needs a bone/skin/etc of the animal she wants to change into, she's not restricted to any species, the mass issue is handled by her "storing" the extra mass (when transforming into something smaller) in a different pocket dimenssion IIRC, and by taking the extra mass (when transforming into a sabertotth tiger) from her surroundings, famously a rock she was sitting on when the transformation occurs.

She doesn't really retain her mind, she absorved a Puma when a child way back in General Custer's time, and it's the puma's mind who is in charge of the beast's form. After all the time living together the Puma has more intelligence than normal Pumas would, but still opperates mainly on instinct.

On my mechanics you would put her as having attained cooperation.

Back on the subject of transmission.

If it is magical in nature and a curse then transmission usually has some manner of rules (unless its hollywood)
Like it has to be a bite that does not kill the victim. Or it can be a bite or scratch even.

If it is biological then that suggests either a transmitted pathogen. Or. A transmitted trigger.

If it is a pathogen then how hard is it to either disinfect the wound and prevent infection, or administer a cure before the person turns.
Of it is a trigger. Then what percentage of the population is latent? And are there specific hereditary forms such that you might not know what the person will were-form into.

Or does each trigger cause a specific form. So wolfs make more wolfs. Snakes make more snakes, and so on.

As regards mass. If the change is magical then the mass shifts are likely also covered.
But if the change is biological then the mass has to come from somewhere. This may be a good excuse why so many go feral. The mass shift leaves them starving as it burns up alot of stored energy/fat to convert into mass. Or it may impose a time limit on how long they can maintain the form before either reverting or more likely passing out. Or even death.

A curse form may impose similar limits. A classic one in many horror stories is that the beast must kill before sunrise or it will remain forever a beast. Another one being that the longer they stay changed. The greater the risk of losing themselves to the beast. Biological shifters may risk this as well in some depictions.

Quote from: Omega on March 13, 2022, 04:19:29 PM
Back on the subject of transmission.

If it is magical in nature and a curse then transmission usually has some manner of rules (unless its hollywood)
Like it has to be a bite that does not kill the victim. Or it can be a bite or scratch even.

If it is biological then that suggests either a transmitted pathogen. Or. A transmitted trigger.

If it is a pathogen then how hard is it to either disinfect the wound and prevent infection, or administer a cure before the person turns.
Of it is a trigger. Then what percentage of the population is latent? And are there specific hereditary forms such that you might not know what the person will were-form into.

Or does each trigger cause a specific form. So wolfs make more wolfs. Snakes make more snakes, and so on.

As regards mass. If the change is magical then the mass shifts are likely also covered.
But if the change is biological then the mass has to come from somewhere. This may be a good excuse why so many go feral. The mass shift leaves them starving as it burns up alot of stored energy/fat to convert into mass. Or it may impose a time limit on how long they can maintain the form before either reverting or more likely passing out. Or even death.

A curse form may impose similar limits. A classic one in many horror stories is that the beast must kill before sunrise or it will remain forever a beast. Another one being that the longer they stay changed. The greater the risk of losing themselves to the beast. Biological shifters may risk this as well in some depictions.

In MY implementation It's magical, if it's a curse or not it's still open to change.

I will not address the biological stuff but that's a good analysis.

Yes, wolfs make more wolfs, etc. Regardless of the trigger, in MY implementation.

Hunger, in MY implementation the change is magical but it still burns body energy, due to the beast form being way larger than the human form, also weres have a faster metabolysm than normal humans due to magic but said metabolysm still needs the nutrients to work. Weres do not age and are rejuvenated to about 25 years old if changed when older than that, for some reason tho (it's magic) if changed when a teen lets say the aging continues to about the 25 years old mark.

In MY implementation spending too much time in beast form does risk loosing yourself to the beast... Except (maybe) if you've attained integration.

In MY implementation there's also ranks among the weres, mainly if they are of a pack type of were, Lions, Wolfs and such are ranked Alpha (the more dominant/strongest of the pack), there can (and often are) other dominants in the pack but they are less dominant than the Alpha and submmit to it or get killed/expelled, then there's the Bettas or submissives, they do change and will hunt/kill but lack the agressive instincts of the dominant, dominants feel the need to control/protect their pack mates.

I'm thinking of tying the Ammount of control to this dominance mechanic, so the more dominant the more control the were has over the beast side. Attaining Cooperation might also be tied to it and MAYBE Integration does too. Still haven't decided if attaining cooperation/integration also boosts the dominance of the were.

IF dominance is a function of power, then weres that don't form packs should also be able to read other weres dominance rank. If two weres are too close in rank a fight to establish dominance might ensue.

In my WIPs, I have provisions for infectious (curse-borne) lycanthropy, hereditary demigods, and spiritualists who are initiated by a ritual or a literal mantle (pelt) passed down across wearers. So far.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 13, 2022, 05:28:44 PM
In my WIPs, I have provisions for infectious (curse-borne) lycanthropy, hereditary demigods, and spiritualists who are initiated by a ritual or a literal mantle (pelt) passed down across wearers. So far.

I'm honestly intimidated by the sheer ammount of work you have done on it. I haven't even begun to read it.

Torg Eternity takes an interesting spin on the werewolf bite. Those that will become werewolves are not the lucky survivors that escaped with their lives; they actually died of their wounds and the curse brings them back to a state of false life (not undeath). If they ever find a way to break the curse, they are no longer a werewolf, but they are also dead without the curse to sustain them.

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 13, 2022, 06:20:08 PM
Torg Eternity takes an interesting spin on the werewolf bite. Those that will become werewolves are not the lucky survivors that escaped with their lives; they actually died of their wounds and the curse brings them back to a state of false life (not undeath). If they ever find a way to break the curse, they are no longer a werewolf, but they are also dead without the curse to sustain them.

So Vampires of sorts?

Some variations of that are used to explain why there aren't werewolf epidemics. Either most of those infected die or only a minority of victims are successfully infected (commonly those who suffer NDEs). The exact details vary between authors.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 06:11:22 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 13, 2022, 05:28:44 PM
In my WIPs, I have provisions for infectious (curse-borne) lycanthropy, hereditary demigods, and spiritualists who are initiated by a ritual or a literal mantle (pelt) passed down across wearers. So far.

I'm honestly intimidated by the sheer ammount of work you have done on it. I haven't even begun to read it.

It's just brainstorming at this point. The details are fairly sparse in reality

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 13, 2022, 06:44:10 PM
Some variations of that are used to explain why there aren't werewolf epidemics. Either most of those infected die or only a minority of victims are successfully infected (commonly those who suffer NDEs). The exact details vary between authors.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 06:11:22 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 13, 2022, 05:28:44 PM
In my WIPs, I have provisions for infectious (curse-borne) lycanthropy, hereditary demigods, and spiritualists who are initiated by a ritual or a literal mantle (pelt) passed down across wearers. So far.

I'm honestly intimidated by the sheer ammount of work you have done on it. I haven't even begun to read it.

It's just brainstorming at this point. The details are fairly sparse in reality

What's NDEs?

Yeah, you need an inworld plausible explanation as to why were's haven't overrun humanity. In my take this is explained (so far) by the fact that the attack has to leave you almost dead & it has to include bites (only the saliva/fluids transmit the curse).

An important question IMHO is: Are weres a class or a race? If a class then they shouldn't be able to reproduce sexually, if a race then they should be able to reproduce sexually plus probably they shouldn't be able to infect non-weres.

Ergo a were race isn't a curse/infection but something else, either evolved like that or it's a blessing from Diana or whoever.

"Brainstorming" yeah dude but it's a BIG document.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 13, 2022, 06:32:20 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 13, 2022, 06:20:08 PM
Torg Eternity takes an interesting spin on the werewolf bite. Those that will become werewolves are not the lucky survivors that escaped with their lives; they actually died of their wounds and the curse brings them back to a state of false life (not undeath). If they ever find a way to break the curse, they are no longer a werewolf, but they are also dead without the curse to sustain them.

So Vampires of sorts?

They're only similar to vampires in that both involve the victim's death leading to them becoming one of the monsters. These werewolves don't have any undead traits (i.e., they still age, eat, drink, breathe, shit, sweat, etc.) And their monstrous powers are obviously inspired from werewolves rather than vampires (in both cases, more pop culture inspired than any from old tales).

NDE = near death experience