GURPS SUMMARY

Attributes:
Strength Base 10, 10 points per +/-1
Dexterity Base 10, 20 points per +/-1
Intelligence Base 10, 10 points per +/-1
Health Base 10, 10 points per +/-1
Perception Base 10, 5 points per +/-1
Willpower Base 10, 5 points per +/-1

Figured Values:
Base Speed = Dexterity + Health / 4
Light Encumbrance = Strength x Strength / 5

Advantages:
Languages 2 points for broken, 4 points for accented, 6 points for fluent
Reaction Roll 5 points per +/- 1

Disadvantages:
Minor Mental -5 points Resist on 12-
Serious Mental -10 points Resist on 12-

Skills:
1 point for
Climbing DX - 1
Riding DX - 1
First Aid IQ
Stealth DX - 1
Swimming HT
Simple Weapon DX (Shield, Dagger, Gun, Crossbow)
Average Weapon DX -1 (Sword, Axe/Mace, Great Sword, Great Axe/Mace, Bow)
Difficult Weapon DX -2 (Flail)
Thrown Weapon 0
Brawling DX (+1 damage for DX +2)
Karate DX -2 (+1 damage for DX +1, +2 damage for DX +2)
Judo DX -2

unskilled additional - 4
+1 for 2 points
+2 for 4 points
additional +1 for 4 points

Success and Failure:
Roll 3d6 equal to or under skill or attribute
3 automatic critical success
4 automatic success
4 - 6 and <= modified skill -10 critical success
17 automatic failure
18 automatic critical failure

Combat:
In order of basic speed (though around the table and foes act after each PC works just fine for big groups)
Step and Attack may defend
All Out Attack (+4 to hit, 2 attacks, or +2 damage)
Aim (+Weapon's Accuracy to next attack if not disrupted)
All Out Defense (may try two defenses on an attack or +2 to defense)
Move (full move may defend)
Change Position (drop prone, or kneel from prone, or stand from kneel)

Active Defenses
3d6 roll under or equal to
Dodge = Base Speed rounded down - encumbrance level
Parry = 1/2 skill +3
Block = 1/2 shield skill +3 + Defense Bonus
Back Step or drop +3 to Active Defense

Damage
Muscle Powered Weapon Table
Strength 10 Swing 1d, Thrust 1d-2

HP = Strength
Roll Weapon Damage subtract Armour Damage Resistance to get HP Damage
Damage > 1/2 HP roll Health or Stunned and Knocked Down, Limbs Crippled
HP < 4 1/2 Move
HP < 1 Roll HT each round or pass out
HP < HP x - n roll HT or die
HP < HP x -5 just plain dead

So, at the basic level GURPS isn't that complex.  Oh I probably got some niggling detail wrong.  But the devil is in the details.

Quote from: David Johansen on May 23, 2022, 07:16:30 PM
GURPS SUMMARY

Attributes:
Strength Base 10, 10 points per +/-1
Dexterity Base 10, 20 points per +/-1
Intelligence Base 10, 10 points per +/-1
Health Base 10, 10 points per +/-1
Perception Base 10, 5 points per +/-1
Willpower Base 10, 5 points per +/-1

Figured Values:
Base Speed = Dexterity + Health / 4
Light Encumbrance = Strength x Strength / 5

Advantages:
Languages 2 points for broken, 4 points for accented, 6 points for fluent
Reaction Roll 5 points per +/- 1

Disadvantages:
Minor Mental -5 points Resist on 12-
Serious Mental -10 points Resist on 12-

Skills:
1 point for
Climbing DX - 1
Riding DX - 1
First Aid IQ
Stealth DX - 1
Swimming HT
Simple Weapon DX (Shield, Dagger, Gun, Crossbow)
Average Weapon DX -1 (Sword, Axe/Mace, Great Sword, Great Axe/Mace, Bow)
Difficult Weapon DX -2 (Flail)
Thrown Weapon 0
Brawling DX (+1 damage for DX +2)
Karate DX -2 (+1 damage for DX +1, +2 damage for DX +2)
Judo DX -2

unskilled additional - 4
+1 for 2 points
+2 for 4 points
additional +1 for 4 points

Success and Failure:
Roll 3d6 equal to or under skill or attribute
3 automatic critical success
4 automatic success
4 - 6 and <= modified skill -10 critical success
17 automatic failure
18 automatic critical failure

Combat:
In order of basic speed (though around the table and foes act after each PC works just fine for big groups)
Step and Attack may defend
All Out Attack (+4 to hit, 2 attacks, or +2 damage)
Aim (+Weapon's Accuracy to next attack if not disrupted)
All Out Defense (may try two defenses on an attack or +2 to defense)
Move (full move may defend)
Change Position (drop prone, or kneel from prone, or stand from kneel)

Active Defenses
3d6 roll under or equal to
Dodge = Base Speed rounded down - encumbrance level
Parry = 1/2 skill +3
Block = 1/2 shield skill +3 + Defense Bonus
Back Step or drop +3 to Active Defense

Damage
Muscle Powered Weapon Table
Strength 10 Swing 1d, Thrust 1d-2

HP = Strength
Roll Weapon Damage subtract Armour Damage Resistance to get HP Damage
Damage > 1/2 HP roll Health or Stunned and Knocked Down, Limbs Crippled
HP < 4 1/2 Move
HP < 1 Roll HT each round or pass out
HP < HP x - n roll HT or die
HP < HP x -5 just plain dead

So, at the basic level GURPS isn't that complex.  Oh I probably got some niggling detail wrong.  But the devil is in the details.

Yes, the devil is most certainly in the details...And GURPS is the Nine Hells.

Quote from: Abraxus on May 23, 2022, 05:52:45 PM
...
I'm surprised they never tried getting more popular ips. Then again probably to expensive.

They had Conan, one of the RPG hobbies evergreen IPs, and proceeded to go absolutely nowhere with it... (Well TSR first, then SJG...)

The same IP that Mongoose did two editions, and piles of supplements for. (Yes, Mongoose did that.) The same IP that Modiphius uses their 2d20 house system that nobody cares about, yet still sells...

These are the same guys that thought a Girl genius RPG was a good idea.

Of course they had no idea what to do with Conan...

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 23, 2022, 07:29:42 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on May 23, 2022, 07:16:30 PM
GURPS SUMMARY

Attributes:...

*SNIPITY*

So, at the basic level GURPS isn't that complex.  Oh I probably got some niggling detail wrong.  But the devil is in the details.

Yes, the devil is most certainly in the details...And GURPS is the Nine Hells.

I see the issues just in that breakdown. Variable Attribute costs for advancement. Advantage/disadvantage point nonsense. 3 tiers for languages? LOL. variable skill costs as they increase. Barf.

And then just reading GURPs "Lite": Throwing distance and damage tables that use multiplication and division, depending. Wounding Modifiers and
Injury that have you multiplying by 0.5, 1.5, or 2, depending. And of course GURPS "Lite" has fatigue points - one of the most popular RPG mechanics ever, of all time, throughout the history of RPG's...

I mean seriously!? That's the "Lite" version of the system that serves as an introduction for newbies?

Even their "Lite" version is too fiddly. Outside of their dedicated fanbase, everything they do will be DOA.

Like I said earlier in the thread: SJG isn't gonna change a thing. GURPS is going the way of HERO.

Quote from: David Johansen on May 23, 2022, 07:16:30 PM
GURPS SUMMARY

Attributes:
Strength Base 10, 10 points per +/-1
Dexterity Base 10, 20 points per +/-1
Intelligence Base 10, 10 points per +/-1
Health Base 10, 10 points per +/-1
Perception Base 10, 5 points per +/-1
Willpower Base 10, 5 points per +/-1

[...]
Reaction Roll 5 points per +/- 1

So, here is my first fix: Intelligence theoretically affects Perception, Willpower, and Reaction. Your suggestion - consider Int costing 10 points - is better, but now we have attributes costing 5, 10 or 20 points (Dex being the only one that costs 20 points). This is confusing. Would be easier to have eight attributes IMO, each costing 10, separating agility to dexterity.

Or, alternatively, the six stats in D&D. At least they are more balanced (although wisdom meaning perception AND willpower is strange).

Same for skills: with "bang" skills every skill costs the same. Maybe allow some specialization, up to +4, for half the cost.

BTW, GURPS Ultra-Lite is even better than GURPS lite... maybe we should start there...

TBone's thoughts on a new Gurps Lite.

https://www.gamesdiner.com/2017/06/books-we-want-updated-gurps-lite/

Quote from: TBoneLook what 3e did!

No one wants to be compared to the older sibling who did things better. But before brushing off too many suggestions for a revamped LITE with "there's just no space", let's take a look back at what LITE for 3e (October 2001 Edition) accomplished. Along with the same basics found in LITE for 4e, it offers:

More weapons – two full pages of tables! (With javelin! Smallsword and saber! Twice as many bows, plus a prodd! Two flails instead of none! Three polearms and three knives, not one of each! Sling skill and weapons! Baton and light club! Two-handed axe and maul! More pistols, more rifles, and beam weapons! And even rock!)

    A bigger character form
    A full-page sample character (though, yes, it's ol' Dai again...)
    Basics on non-humans and animals
    Stats for 11 riding and draft animals (vs 0 in LITE for 4e)
    A Tech Level table! (Edit: Actually, LITE for 4e has a brief one too; it's tucked into the discussion of Starting Wealth on p18.)
    A short section on jobs

THE GURPS MAGIC SYSTEM! Sure, it's short, and leaves key questions untouched (like what's the range for spells). But you get the core basics plus 14 spells in one and a half pages. (This is a nice tribute to the simplicity of GURPS' default magic system.)

LITE for 3e manages all that in the same 32 pages as LITE for 4e. I'm not quite sure how it achieves this miracle. Some cramped layout at the expense of appearance, perhaps, but overall I'm impressed.

Revamped LITE for 4e, you've got some big (or at least tightly-packed) shoes to fill! I know you can do it...

Quote from: Jaeger on May 23, 2022, 09:40:11 PM

I see the issues just in that breakdown. Variable Attribute costs for advancement. Advantage/disadvantage point nonsense. 3 tiers for languages? LOL. variable skill costs as they increase. Barf.

And then just reading GURPs "Lite": Throwing distance and damage tables that use multiplication and division, depending. Wounding Modifiers and
Injury that have you multiplying by 0.5, 1.5, or 2, depending. And of course GURPS "Lite" has fatigue points - one of the most popular RPG mechanics ever, of all time, throughout the history of RPG's...

I mean seriously!? That's the "Lite" version of the system that serves as an introduction for newbies?

Even their "Lite" version is too fiddly. Outside of their dedicated fanbase, everything they do will be DOA.

Like I said earlier in the thread: SJG isn't gonna change a thing. GURPS is going the way of HERO.

The only GURPS product that I currently own is the Dungeon Fantasy boxed set. I had hoped a limited scope would create a more welcoming experience than wide-open GURPS. Maybe it did...a little, but I didn't find it appealing.

   I typed a few paragraphs about appreciation for Dungeon Fantasy, ideas to use Lite for products, etc... Then I looked at the home page while doing so and saw Girl Genius is a hard back book now...Never mind.  Maybe they just hate making money.

Is there a good GURPS retroclone?

I know there was a Fantasy Trip retroclone, but I don't remember if I played it. I kinda remember it being cool.

My favorite Not-GURPS Fantasy RPG is Warrior, Rogue & Mage
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/82643/Warrior-Rogue--Mage?manufacturers_id=3313

Totally free and deserves LOTS more love. I've run some games and it was great at the table if you want something heavier than OSR which I view about the speed and depth of D100 / GURPS Lite / D6 but WR&M has better chargen.

And WR&M has lots of free supplements on DriveThruRPG.

I've fiddled with a GURPS clone a lot over the years.  The problem is that what GURPS really offers is a language for defining and describing characters.  If you rename everything to avoid copyright issues you basically lose that.  Also, if you start to deviate you lose people because GURPS is something different to everyone.  I bet I've got half a dozen versions on my hard drive.  I was working on a simple skill based 3d6 game last fall that basically abandoned the GURPS element to be its own thing.

If you want a more rigorous and structured game that's very much a better GURPS I generally suggest JAGS though CORPS and EABA fit in the same general region and BRTC is really good at technical stuff like guns and vehicles.

But as someone who really feels that we've reached the point where creative GURPS fans would do well to go their own way and create some kind of an ultimate wiki clone community, I don't think it's actually viable to do so.  Everyone will just get on their own personal hobby horse and ride off in different directions.

I would have doubts about using GURPS for a fantasy setting. It would probably get too complex. I do, however, like GURPS for semi-hard sci-fi in which everyone plays a human being. That way, you don't have to worry about magic/powers and can dispense with a lot of the advantages and disadvantages. I detest the current trend of using the D&D 5e system for all kinds of different settings. It doesn't even work with traditional D&D, let alone with Sword & Sorcery or Tolkienesque fantasy. Things get even worse if you try to transport it to a sci-fi/cyberpunk world.

Here's a rationalized take on GURPS, I put it in the game design forum rather than derailing this thread.  It wouldn't be compatible with GURPS as it stands and would probably alienate 99% of the existing fanbase.

https://www.therpgsite.com/design-development-and-gameplay/rationalizing-gurps/new/#new

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 23, 2021, 02:50:02 AM

Imho, what they need is to take the engine and publish focused games, start with whatever they think it does best, and make a full game, in a single book,

Agreed.
Independent stand-alone books for a Genre that has all you need to play in it. Theme the book strongly for the genre. Generic doesn't sell well.

Quote from: thornad on May 25, 2022, 04:25:08 PM
Agreed.
Independent stand-alone books for a Genre that has all you need to play in it. Theme the book strongly for the genre. Generic doesn't sell well.

I might be interested in a game using Gurps if they do it that way.  It would have to be well written and easy to understand.

I tried to like Gurps.  Got all of the 4th edition books but because they were so poorly laid out and the system as presented was over-complicated I sold them all.

If there is a setting using the system that is well laid out I would give it another try

Quote from: David Johansen on April 25, 2021, 10:11:45 AM
Masters got banned for defending the use of the word "slave" and implying that it's a stupid thing to freak out about.

anyhow...

If the plan is to just keep the core in print, and do everything else on-line and I was doing a 4.5 edition the pages wasted on iconic characters and Infinite Worlds would be replaced with the new advantages from powers, more spells, more animals, more martial arts techniques, and more fantasy templates.  I'd probably try to find a good hyper realistic artist to do very evocative but grounded illustrations.

I'd want to make the core stand alone as much as possible.

Now, I know that screws with page references and the cross referencing is one of the reasons there will never be a 5th edition.  But screw it, if ever thing else is pdf we should be able to update all that with a decently smart search and replace function.

I'll always want a GURPS starter with 1/32 action figures in the box and a big modular, build your own science fiction vehicle kit.  But I'd want a space opera starter rather than a fantasy one.

So he got banned for telling the truth. In other news a piece of paper ignited at 451 degrees f, a man fell in water and got wet,  fox news lied about everything and several billion farts were let around the world.

As a serious question, does anyone think gurps would have done better if it had a more serious name?