Quote from: Brad on April 27, 2021, 09:49:07 AM
https://anydice.com/program/c055

So why use 2D10 over 3D6? Serious question...in my opinion, one of the perks of GURPS is that you can get dice for it pretty much anywhere. Is it just because of the smoother curve?

Smoother curve and longer curve for me.  I'd actually like something like 2d12 or 1d10 + 1d12 even more for the length of the curve.  And you can do some nifty things with different dice.  Even d8 + d12 would be fun.  However, that loses a lot of the simplicity of 2d10--making all of them suspect for any kind of game you want to have a wide audience.

Essentially, the grain of the possible useful modifiers with 3d6 is so coarse that it only works for me with systems that are less complex than GURPS (or Hero), especially on the low-end of fantasy or other places that I would want to use skills.  For supers, doesn't matter so much, which is why I think the default of 3d6 for standard Hero is fine.  Note that this is all as much personal taste as anything else.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 27, 2021, 09:51:12 AM
Well, there's this one: http://www.uncouthsavage.com/uploads/1/3/3/2/133279619/3d6fmt.pdf

Would 1d20 roll under be close enough?

http://www.uncouthsavage.com/uploads/1/3/3/2/133279619/fivestat.pdf

I actually started filing the serial numbers off the summary I posted.  Awareness for Perception, Physique for Strength and so forth, but just like every time I've done so, it quickly drifted away as a dozen things became attributes.  I think the value of GURPS is partially in the shared language for describing things it presents.  That's where calling everything something else really doesn't work out or serve any purpose.

Here's a little project I stayed up too late putting together last night.

http://www.uncouthsavage.com/uploads/1/3/3/2/133279619/gurpscard.pdf

In hindsight I should have done it on a playing card instead of a business card.  I could have gone with 9point type and SJG prints a lot of playing cards.  It works as a "GURPS isn't that hard" promotional type thing.

  Didnt Alternity use the roll under D20?  I never played it, own a few of the books, it actually looks like a system that was a good fit for sci fi.  I think it did have a 4-5 page character sheet, and that looked daunting.  Anyone have any experience with playing the Alternity game?

Quote from: oggsmash on April 27, 2021, 01:00:08 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on April 27, 2021, 09:51:12 AM
Well, there's this one: http://www.uncouthsavage.com/uploads/1/3/3/2/133279619/3d6fmt.pdf

Would 1d20 roll under be close enough?

http://www.uncouthsavage.com/uploads/1/3/3/2/133279619/fivestat.pdf

I actually started filing the serial numbers off the summary I posted.  Awareness for Perception, Physique for Strength and so forth, but just like every time I've done so, it quickly drifted away as a dozen things became attributes.  I think the value of GURPS is partially in the shared language for describing things it presents.  That's where calling everything something else really doesn't work out or serve any purpose.

Here's a little project I stayed up too late putting together last night.

http://www.uncouthsavage.com/uploads/1/3/3/2/133279619/gurpscard.pdf

In hindsight I should have done it on a playing card instead of a business card.  I could have gone with 9point type and SJG prints a lot of playing cards.  It works as a "GURPS isn't that hard" promotional type thing.

  Didnt Alternity use the roll under D20?  I never played it, own a few of the books, it actually looks like a system that was a good fit for sci fi.  I think it did have a 4-5 page character sheet, and that looked daunting.  Anyone have any experience with playing the Alternity game?

I played Alternity for about 2 years. The game has some really weird mechanics in places. In some cases, it's hard to tell if certain outcomes were intended features or unintended bugs

Rules Heavy RPGs in general are suffering since videogames have gotten better. The ttRPG niche requires making use of the fuzzy logic interpreter that is the GM and shit tons of optional rules for things does not align to that.

Since GURPS is so focused on the simulation aspect, the books themselves tend to be well researched and make for good scholarly RPG reading. That doesn't translate to high player growth. I personally had to trick my group into playing GURPS once and they were not super into it.

What would a GURPS 5e do? How would it be successful? I can only speak to my inclinations, but if a GURPS 5e existed, I do not think it should come with a core rule-book or core rules. Individual well researched RPG IPs. Preferably big A4 tomes that come with a pdf. You sell to enthusiast GMs like myself and include 5-7 premade characters with the book so I could run a one-shot to "sell the game". 

I personally would not call it 5e. The "powered by GURPS" tag would work better and keep your core 4e fans happy. It's real shame GURPS does not have a book for IPs like "The Expanse", "Game of Thrones", and other gritty popular IPs that could benefit from a simulationist traditional RPG that blushes because their combat rounds are a "ludicrously long" 1-second.
Basically any popular IP where people want to really dig into the world would be good for the GURPS approach. 

The reason GURPS isn't more popular is that it is generic.  It requires work on the part of the GM and players to curate the selection of systems in play.  Most modern gamers don't want to handle this customization and turn to something ready to go.  All of the generic toolbox's have the same issue.

For example Chaosium's BGB is pretty much dead in the water, but Call of Cthulhu is one of the most popular games out there.  Same base system but one is tailored and bundled to a setting.

My sneaking suspicion is that modern gamers don't have as much of the time to do the DIY that was popular in the 80s and 90s due to all the distractions of technology in our lives.  Publishers of these generic systems need to come up with a way to streamline the content to fit modern players.

Quote from: Palleon on April 27, 2021, 02:17:12 PM
The reason GURPS isn't more popular is that it is generic.  It requires work on the part of the GM and players to curate the selection of systems in play.  Most modern gamers don't want to handle this customization and turn to something ready to go.  All of the generic toolbox's have the same issue.

For example Chaosium's BGB is pretty much dead in the water, but Call of Cthulhu is one of the most popular games out there.  Same base system but one is tailored and bundled to a setting.

My sneaking suspicion is that modern gamers don't have as much of the time to do the DIY that was popular in the 80s and 90s due to all the distractions of technology in our lives.  Publishers of these generic systems need to come up with a way to streamline the content to fit modern players.

FFG might have had much the same issue when they tried to pull the narrative dice system out of Star Wars and put it out as Genesys. I don't know about its overall success, but with the players I've spoken to, they put up with the dice system because of Star Wars rather than going to Star Wars for the narrative dice. For them, Genesys just didn't have what they wanted.

I did buy Alternity and ran it once.  It was bad.  I really can't imagine why people like it.  There's like three different sets of scales that shift around in the damage system.  But it's d20 + dn roll over target number at the heart.  Very D&D like if the D&D designers really thought you needed a bunch of different scale shifts every time you roll damage.  Also, it's one of those games where Intelligence gives you bonus skill points, which isn't what you want if you want a points system.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 27, 2021, 02:36:50 PM
I did buy Alternity and ran it once.  It was bad.  I really can't imagine why people like it.  There's like three different sets of scales that shift around in the damage system.  But it's d20 + dn roll over target number at the heart.  Very D&D like if the D&D designers really thought you needed a bunch of different scale shifts every time you roll damage.  Also, it's one of those games where Intelligence gives you bonus skill points, which isn't what you want if you want a points system.

It absolutely is NOT roll over.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 27, 2021, 02:36:50 PM
I did buy Alternity and ran it once.  It was bad.  I really can't imagine why people like it.  There's like three different sets of scales that shift around in the damage system.  But it's d20 + dn roll over target number at the heart.  Very D&D like if the D&D designers really thought you needed a bunch of different scale shifts every time you roll damage.  Also, it's one of those games where Intelligence gives you bonus skill points, which isn't what you want if you want a points system.

I actually loved the damage system in theory till I tried it out for the first time and realized that it dragged in practice. This was decades ago, so I don't remember the specifics, but it kinda slowed combat down and didn't quite convey the feel of varying degrees of injury how I thought it would. It was kinda like having a hit point system, only more complicated and broken down into three pools.

I also liked the basic idea of degrees of success for ability rolls, but didn't like the roll-under mechanic used in Alternity. In d20+Mod games I tend to break success into Marginal as a base level of success, then Complete Success at 5+ or Critical Success at 10+.

Quote from: Brad on April 27, 2021, 09:49:07 AM
https://anydice.com/program/c055

So why use 2D10 over 3D6? Serious question...in my opinion, one of the perks of GURPS is that you can get dice for it pretty much anywhere. Is it just because of the smoother curve?

IMHO The 3d6 bell curve is almost too perfect for rpg's.

The cutoff points for skills where you will almost always fail a roll or almost always succeed are too predictable.

The flatter pyramid curve of 2d10 stretches the probabilities out so PC's will have a wider range where their skill numbers are relevant but do not tend to deliver automatic results.

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 27, 2021, 02:21:09 PM
FFG might have had much the same issue when they tried to pull the narrative dice system out of Star Wars and put it out as Genesys. I don't know about its overall success, but with the players I've spoken to, they put up with the dice system because of Star Wars rather than going to Star Wars for the narrative dice. For them, Genesys just didn't have what they wanted.

Genesys is done as a system without Star Wars to back it.  No one likes proprietary dice.

Star Wars is one of three RPG IP's that sell almost regardless of the system attached to it. (Conan, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars.)

Most of their previous system iterations are nowhere now that they do not have the IP behind them. IMHO the d6 system had the most promise, but WEG ran into other issues.

Quote from: Palleon on April 27, 2021, 02:17:12 PM
...  Most modern gamers don't want to handle this customization and turn to something ready to go.  All of the generic toolbox's have the same issue....

My sneaking suspicion is that modern gamers don't have as much of the time to do the DIY that was popular in the 80s and 90s due to all the distractions of technology in our lives. Publishers of these generic systems need to come up with a way to streamline the content to fit modern players.

I'll quibble a bit...

I think that you are right about toolkits being too generic, but I think that DIY has taken a different turn due to the big effect of the OGL on the hobby.

Most people want to do an established game like D&D, but... (Insert my better house rule here.)

Why turn to a generic system where you do all the heavy lifting when you can pick up the OGL or SRD of a system that already has 80% of what you want and tune to taste.

Path of least resistance and all that...

Quote from: Palleon on April 27, 2021, 02:17:12 PM
The reason GURPS isn't more popular is that it is generic.  It requires work on the part of the GM and players to curate the selection of systems in play.  Most modern gamers don't want to handle this customization and turn to something ready to go.  All of the generic toolbox's have the same issue.

For example Chaosium's BGB is pretty much dead in the water, but Call of Cthulhu is one of the most popular games out there.  Same base system but one is tailored and bundled to a setting.

My sneaking suspicion is that modern gamers don't have as much of the time to do the DIY that was popular in the 80s and 90s due to all the distractions of technology in our lives.  Publishers of these generic systems need to come up with a way to streamline the content to fit modern players.

Ehhh Savage Worlds is still pretty popular.

But Savage Worlds has an "easy mode" of being able to run plot point campaigns. A GM may use Savage Worlds as a tool kit to something else, but does not have too.

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 27, 2021, 02:52:01 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on April 27, 2021, 02:36:50 PM
I did buy Alternity and ran it once.  It was bad.  I really can't imagine why people like it.  There's like three different sets of scales that shift around in the damage system.  But it's d20 + dn roll over target number at the heart.  Very D&D like if the D&D designers really thought you needed a bunch of different scale shifts every time you roll damage.  Also, it's one of those games where Intelligence gives you bonus skill points, which isn't what you want if you want a points system.

It absolutely is NOT roll over.

Fair enough, it was a long time ago, my brain just remembers it as a fiddly D&D offshoot.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 27, 2021, 07:09:23 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on April 27, 2021, 02:52:01 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on April 27, 2021, 02:36:50 PM
I did buy Alternity and ran it once.  It was bad.  I really can't imagine why people like it.  There's like three different sets of scales that shift around in the damage system.  But it's d20 + dn roll over target number at the heart.  Very D&D like if the D&D designers really thought you needed a bunch of different scale shifts every time you roll damage.  Also, it's one of those games where Intelligence gives you bonus skill points, which isn't what you want if you want a points system.

It absolutely is NOT roll over.

Fair enough, it was a long time ago, my brain just remembers it as a fiddly D&D offshoot.

Yeah, this was 2e era, so it was roll-under. And difficulty was rolled using increasing dice types (1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1d12 and 1d20) per each step of difficulty, added to your roll-under 1d20 roll if circumstances increased your difficulty, or subtracted from your roll if they reduced your difficulty. It was an odd mix of 2e era D&D mechanics and newer innovations sort of hamfisted into it. Most of them awesome ideas that sounded good on paper but didn't fully pay out in practice, from my brief experience with it.

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 27, 2021, 05:03:20 PM
Ehhh Savage Worlds is still pretty popular.

But Savage Worlds has an "easy mode" of being able to run plot point campaigns. A GM may use Savage Worlds as a tool kit to something else, but does not have too.

In Savage Worlds defense* they have been very savvy about having complete games with well known IP attached to their system.

To say nothing of the ease of use differences between the relatively thin SW rules set and the GURPS tome.


* This by is no means a caveat to the fact that Savage Worlds still Fucking Sucks.

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 27, 2021, 01:53:16 PM
It's real shame GURPS does not have a book for IPs like "The Expanse", "Game of Thrones", and other gritty popular IPs that could benefit from a simulationist traditional RPG that blushes because their combat rounds are a "ludicrously long" 1-second. Basically any popular IP where people want to really dig into the world would be good for the GURPS approach.

Rumor has it that GRR Martin is a Gurps fan. Or played Gurps. No idea if it is true.