Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 23, 2021, 02:50:02 AM
Why would they need a 5th edition? To simplify things? I doubt it. Full games IMHO.

A GURPS 5e would consolidate rules from some of the other GURPS 4e books.

I ran a successful X-Com game using GURPS 4e, which is the one and only time I've used it. It worked quite well for what I wanted from it.

However, next time I run something that I'd consider GURPS for, I will most likely give EABA a spin instead.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 25, 2021, 12:07:05 PM
4th is so much better.

YOU'RE TEARING ME APART, LISA!

Specific example of a way 3rd is better than 4th: psionics. And it's not even a close.

Quote from: Sable Wyvern on April 26, 2021, 03:30:05 AM
However, next time I run something that I'd consider GURPS for, I will most likely give EABA a spin instead.

I am a hardcore EABA advocate; it truly is an exceptionally well designed game. However, like GURPS has a fantasy-bent at its roots, EABA clearly has a modern/scifi base. EABA does military, mystery, scifi, HPL-esque gaming better than GURPS, but I'd still prefer GURPS for a gritty fantasy game, or even a sci-fantasy pulpy gaming, depending on what elements you want to include. Conan, GURPS is probably better, something like Yor, I'd use EABA.

If you mean more unbalanced and powerful then psionics certainly are better in third.  But fair enough, one place I lean to third on is supers.  The fourth edition super strength cludge is no better than any of the third edition methods at any rate.  I'll give you the Vehicles support of course.  Fourth dropped the ball, walked off the court, and took the ball with them on that end.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 26, 2021, 02:14:07 PM
If you mean more unbalanced and powerful then psionics certainly are better in third.  But fair enough, one place I lean to third on is supers.  The fourth edition super strength cludge is no better than any of the third edition methods at any rate.  I'll give you the Vehicles support of course.  Fourth dropped the ball, walked off the court, and took the ball with them on that end.

I waited for...10 years for 4th Vehicles? Instead I got nine thousand supplements on how to play GURPS like D&D, and even a whole boxed set.

Quote from: Aglondir on April 23, 2021, 02:12:27 AM
...
In that thread, he basically says there will not be a 5th edition for Gurps, unless the RPG market drastically changes, and the popularity for Gurps increases. It's not really a surprise, but hearing it from Phil makes it real.

What I find hard to believe is why they won't Kickstart it. The diehard fans alone would fund it...

The RPG market did drastically change. It was called the OGL.

They made no move to stay relevant, and now they are where they are.

Continual catering to their diehard fans and ignoring the market at large is a big part of why they have fallen out of the conversation for go-to Rpg systems.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 23, 2021, 11:37:57 AM
   OTOH, is anyone seeing any spillover growth from D&D's huge success? Conventional wisdom was that a growing D&D feeds into the rest of the industry as well, but with the new emphasis on 'lifestyle branding', I'm not so sure that's true any more.

I agree – I think that the percentage of "spill-over" is much less than a decade or two ago.

WOTC has finally figured out with 5e how to market things and make the OGL/SRD work for them.

They have been aided by the fact that all of D&D's former non-d20 mainstay competitors have mismanaged themselves into dwindling fan bases.

Quote from: Bunch on April 23, 2021, 10:07:55 PM
I'd disagree. The various VTT software solutions have benefited greatly from 5e and they almost all support lesser known rpgs.  That may be the best way to grow small title rpgs as it gives you an easy way to find/introduce new players.

If you are tryng to grab market share with a new RPG, making your stuff VTT supported is almost a must. Lots of casual games get played on VTT as opposed to game-stores these days. And not just due to Kung-Flu reasons.

Quote from: Reckall on April 24, 2021, 07:04:33 AM
...
I met a guy that was involved in turning GURPS into an RPG for Interplay. It was off the record so I will not make any names.

Basically, he told me that the whole agreement fell apart because "It was just impossible to work with SJ." ...

Given the success of the franchise, I always wondered how much money SJ lost by being an ass.

Quell surprise...

Quote from: KingCheops on April 23, 2021, 12:35:30 PM
Also lol at GURPS being slimmed down.  ....

Even GURPS "lite" could be streamlined.

In the 4e lite there are several places where they have you dividing by decimal places for things like movement, Range, throwing range, wounding modifiers...

All that decimal shit needs to go. New players and especially GM's see that crap and the book goes right back on the store shelf, or they do not click "add to cart" after seeing that crap in a preview.

Gurps needs a fundamental rethink about what kind of system it wants to be.

And I'll be the heretic and say it: moving to 2d10 instead of 3d6 would be better for the system.

Quote from: Aglondir on April 25, 2021, 11:12:53 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on April 25, 2021, 04:35:48 PM
No, GURPS lite is full on GURPS, it's actually a really dense book.

Correct. It's basically Gurps Less, the same rules as the core just less of them. But the real problem with Gurps Lite is there are no spells in it, even though "magic" is referenced several times. ...

A "Dungeon Fantasy Lite" could capture some 5E players if it was done right. What does SJG have to lose at this point? 4E came out almost 17 years ago. There are probably fans who would do the work for free.

Provided the production values and Art are equal to what we see for 5e and other games it could be worth a chance.

DF and TFT were not it: 1989 called and wanted their production values back. They may play perfectly fine but they look dated and that is not a good look for catching the eye of new players/GM's.

That being said, SJG may just not see the investment giving them any meaningful return. Because it would be a big risk of resources.

It is not just enough to release a good game – it will need to be supported; I.e. Modules, Adventure Paths, the periodic "Tome of everything equivalent", oh and a setting that doesn't suck to go with it all. A minimum of four quality releases a year, every year.

The cost of real competition is high.

I can totally understand SJG- taking a look how much resources such a project would take, and just saying: "Fuck it, we're out."


And, to be honest, even if they had money to burn; I think that they just don't have it in them to take a step back, re-evaluate the system from the top down, and then take the plunge with a focused game.

Quote from: Brad on April 26, 2021, 09:17:24 AM

Quote from: Sable Wyvern on April 26, 2021, 03:30:05 AM
However, next time I run something that I'd consider GURPS for, I will most likely give EABA a spin instead.

I am a hardcore EABA advocate; it truly is an exceptionally well designed game. However, like GURPS has a fantasy-bent at its roots, EABA clearly has a modern/scifi base. EABA does military, mystery, scifi, HPL-esque gaming better than GURPS, but I'd still prefer GURPS for a gritty fantasy game, or even a sci-fantasy pulpy gaming, depending on what elements you want to include. Conan, GURPS is probably better, something like Yor, I'd use EABA.

I wouldn't use either for fantasy.

In the event I do make use of EABA, it will definitely be sci-fi, modern or near future. Possibly A|State. Or something where I can utilise the logarithmic time scale to run some epic battles against ridiculous odds.

Quote from: Jaeger on April 26, 2021, 05:19:05 PM

Quote from: Aglondir on April 23, 2021, 02:12:27 AM
...
In that thread, he basically says there will not be a 5th edition for Gurps, unless the RPG market drastically changes, and the popularity for Gurps increases. It's not really a surprise, but hearing it from Phil makes it real.

What I find hard to believe is why they won't Kickstart it. The diehard fans alone would fund it...

The RPG market did drastically change. It was called the OGL.

They made no move to stay relevant, and now they are where they are.

Continual catering to their diehard fans and ignoring the market at large is a big part of why they have fallen out of the conversation for go-to Rpg systems.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 23, 2021, 11:37:57 AM
   OTOH, is anyone seeing any spillover growth from D&D's huge success? Conventional wisdom was that a growing D&D feeds into the rest of the industry as well, but with the new emphasis on 'lifestyle branding', I'm not so sure that's true any more.

I agree – I think that the percentage of "spill-over" is much less than a decade or two ago.

WOTC has finally figured out with 5e how to market things and make the OGL/SRD work for them.

They have been aided by the fact that all of D&D's former non-d20 mainstay competitors have mismanaged themselves into dwindling fan bases.

Quote from: Bunch on April 23, 2021, 10:07:55 PM
I'd disagree. The various VTT software solutions have benefited greatly from 5e and they almost all support lesser known rpgs.  That may be the best way to grow small title rpgs as it gives you an easy way to find/introduce new players.

If you are tryng to grab market share with a new RPG, making your stuff VTT supported is almost a must. Lots of casual games get played on VTT as opposed to game-stores these days. And not just due to Kung-Flu reasons.

Quote from: Reckall on April 24, 2021, 07:04:33 AM
...
I met a guy that was involved in turning GURPS into an RPG for Interplay. It was off the record so I will not make any names.

Basically, he told me that the whole agreement fell apart because "It was just impossible to work with SJ." ...

Given the success of the franchise, I always wondered how much money SJ lost by being an ass.

Quell surprise...

Quote from: KingCheops on April 23, 2021, 12:35:30 PM
Also lol at GURPS being slimmed down.  ....

Even GURPS "lite" could be streamlined.

In the 4e lite there are several places where they have you dividing by decimal places for things like movement, Range, throwing range, wounding modifiers...

All that decimal shit needs to go. New players and especially GM's see that crap and the book goes right back on the store shelf, or they do not click "add to cart" after seeing that crap in a preview.

Gurps needs a fundamental rethink about what kind of system it wants to be.

And I'll be the heretic and say it: moving to 2d10 instead of 3d6 would be better for the system.

Quote from: Aglondir on April 25, 2021, 11:12:53 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on April 25, 2021, 04:35:48 PM
No, GURPS lite is full on GURPS, it's actually a really dense book.

Correct. It's basically Gurps Less, the same rules as the core just less of them. But the real problem with Gurps Lite is there are no spells in it, even though "magic" is referenced several times. ...

A "Dungeon Fantasy Lite" could capture some 5E players if it was done right. What does SJG have to lose at this point? 4E came out almost 17 years ago. There are probably fans who would do the work for free.

Provided the production values and Art are equal to what we see for 5e and other games it could be worth a chance.

DF and TFT were not it: 1989 called and wanted their production values back. They may play perfectly fine but they look dated and that is not a good look for catching the eye of new players/GM's.

That being said, SJG may just not see the investment giving them any meaningful return. Because it would be a big risk of resources.

It is not just enough to release a good game – it will need to be supported; I.e. Modules, Adventure Paths, the periodic "Tome of everything equivalent", oh and a setting that doesn't suck to go with it all. A minimum of four quality releases a year, every year.

The cost of real competition is high.

I can totally understand SJG- taking a look how much resources such a project would take, and just saying: "Fuck it, we're out."


And, to be honest, even if they had money to burn; I think that they just don't have it in them to take a step back, re-evaluate the system from the top down, and then take the plunge with a focused game.

Greetings!

I have always liked GURPS books. I have put my money on it, and been a loyal customer, having collected a dozen or two dozen books. Rome, Greece, Fantasy, Bestiary, Magic I, Magic II (I think), China, Japan, Russia, Aztecs, Arabia, Vikings, Celts, Medieval, probably some more for sure.

GURPS has always been a 2nd Tier game system though, and as Jaeger detailed, the last 20 years has seen GURPS decline even further, into virtual obscurity. In regular game stores, their products are no where to be found. Back in Southern California, in a few of the older, legacy game stores, D&D would get all the premium shelf space, spinners, front-loaded displays--while GURPS books would be found in a box or two in the back room, almost hidden, along with a dozen other ancient obscure, failed, also-ran game systems from decades ago, or even more recent games that have none the less proven to be failures and quickly sank beneath the waves after a brief period of life.

That is where GURPS is at.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

No, GURPS is on Amazon print on demand.  SJG has largely abandoned retail GURPS.  I'm not going to disagree with a decision based on sales data I don't have.  The way they're handling GURPS is the way they find it makes them the most money.

Powered by GURPS stuff like Vorkosigian and Discworld haven't been huge successes.  Dungeon Fantasy was declared a failure due to cost overruns and late delivery but then they had to reprint it.  SJG is cautious and I can't say I can blame them.  Disappointed, sure but I've backed away from the pissed off an disgusted level I reached a few times.

I've been putting my simple 3d6 stuff together after shooting my mouth off in a GURPS thread on tbp.  It's a bit of a pain because I want this piece from this version and that piece from that version, but I want it to be internally compatible which means digging through everything and integrating it.  Still, I've got to admit that between this and the tbp WIR Banestorm thread, I'm beginning to think there might be sufficient interest to put it together.  It's just, I can't please everyone and GURPS is a lot of different things to different people.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 27, 2021, 12:25:38 AM
No, GURPS is on Amazon print on demand.  SJG has largely abandoned retail GURPS.  I'm not going to disagree with a decision based on sales data I don't have.  The way they're handling GURPS is the way they find it makes them the most money.

Powered by GURPS stuff like Vorkosigian and Discworld haven't been huge successes.  Dungeon Fantasy was declared a failure due to cost overruns and late delivery but then they had to reprint it.  SJG is cautious and I can't say I can blame them.  Disappointed, sure but I've backed away from the pissed off an disgusted level I reached a few times.

I've been putting my simple 3d6 stuff together after shooting my mouth off in a GURPS thread on tbp.  It's a bit of a pain because I want this piece from this version and that piece from that version, but I want it to be internally compatible which means digging through everything and integrating it.  Still, I've got to admit that between this and the tbp WIR Banestorm thread, I'm beginning to think there might be sufficient interest to put it together.  It's just, I can't please everyone and GURPS is a lot of different things to different people.

My unwanted advice:

Don't try to please everyone, make what you think/feel is what you want/need. My bet is it will be close enough to make it worth your time/effort.

Well, my Galaxies In Shadow and The Arcane Confabulation rpgs are what I want and need but I've found most other people aren't big on the math there.  And, they aren't anything like GURPS.

One of the brilliant things about GURPS is how small the core game really is.  You've got Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, and Health.  They start at ten and cost ten points per additional point or point down.  (yes 3 & 4e both do this a bit differently).  Perception, Willpower, Fatigue, and Hit Points all start at ten and have a specific cost per point but for this simple and stripped down version they're all 5 points.  Move starts at 5 but is also 5 points per point.  I'd strip something else off of Dexterity just to make it balance.  I separated them out from the stats to make the prices uniform.  Basing them off a stat keeps the core block small but so does assuming they're a ten if you don't write them down. 

Skills are based on a stat (sometimes it'd be nice to average DX & IQ or have some kind of bonus) and have a difficulty of 0,-1, or -2.  At 0 points there is an additional -4. The cost is 1 point for 0, 2 points for +1, 4 points  for +3, 4 points for each +1 thereafter.  If we lumped the skills into groups of five we could divide all the point costs by 5.  I'm not going to do much with the skill list here but I'd trim the core list considerably.  I'm not sold on the 5 point blocks as it distorts the cost relationship with attributes a bit but it would be an easy way to do a 100% compatible retro clone except you'd need to re-name everything just to be on the safe side.

Advantages are: Charisma (5 points per +1 to reaction rolls), Combat Reflexes (15 points, no mental stun from surprise, +1 active defenses), Damage Reistance (5 points per point), Enhanced Move (20 points per x2), Enhanced Strength (50 points for x 2 but doesn't affect most success rolls),  Magical Aptitude (which I'm tempted to turn into a base 10 stat, but for now 5 points for 0, 15 for 1, 25 for two), Status (5 points per level), Wealth (10 points per x 2).

Disadvantages (and here I'd be quite tempted to keep the allocation low):  Mental (5 points per -1 to self control), Physical (5 points per -1 to skill group or 1/2 move), or Social  (5 points per -1 to reaction rolls).

Success on 3d6 equal to or under rating.  3 is automatic critical success.  4 is automatic success.  6 or less is a critical success if 10 less than skill.  17 is automatic failure.  18 is automatic critical failure.  Some circumstances including stress increases the critical failure range.  Yes, I think I'd make a stress mechanic core.  Contests are resolved by margin of success (I don't know, I'd like something cleaner but as we're presenting GURPS as GURPS we'll go with it.)

Reaction Rolls on 3d6 with a circumstances penalty like hostile intruder in home -10.  lower is negative, 10 is neutral higher is positive, a successful social skill roll provides a bonus under specific circumstances (I don't like the current rating ensures reaction rule).  Fast Talk for example "whoa, hey!  You're not Lenny!  What are you doing in Lenny's house?  What, this isn't Lenny's house?  But the key worked and everything, I'm really sorry man!  What was that address?"

Combat is played in order of Move.  Surprise is determined with a Perception check and shaken off with a Willpower check.  Ranged attacks are at -4 for every factor of 10 meters (yeah I went there) past 10 meters but you can break it down with a chart.  Aiming gives you the weapon's accuracy bonus.  Scopes give an accuracy bonus.  All Out Attack is two attacks, +4 to hit, or +2 damage for everything including missile weapons but allows no defense rolls.  Automatic fire is done at +1 per x 2 rounds and gets 1 hit per recoil margin of success.

A combatant gets a defense roll against any attack they're aware of.  Parries are at 1/2 skill +3.  Blocks are at 1/2 skill + Shield Bonus.  Dodges are at Move +3 - Encumbrance.

Muscle powered weapon damage is at 1d per 5 points of Strength with a chart that goes: 1d, 1d + 1 1d +2, 2d-1, 2d and so forth. This is a bit higher than the current rules because I feel it would help the game scale down better.  Thrust damage is -1 point per die but this will be integrated into the weapon charts. (I think most people would find weapons with stats by strength requirement to be easier than the current variable with calculations method, which is a bit of a chore as is).  Damage resistance is subtracted from damage.  Some weapons have an armor divisor or a damage multiplier like this: (2)2d-1(1.5).

If an attack does more than half the target's Strength before armor, they are knocked down.  If an attack does more than half their Hit Points after armor they are stunned and -4 to defend until they can make a Health roll.  If they are at less than half Hit Points they must make a Willpower roll to go faster than half move.  If they are at 0 Hit Points or less they must make a Health Roll each round to remain conscious.  If they are fully negative and at each full multiple they must roll Health to avoid dying.

Really, that's about it.

I guess if we were doing fantasy I'd add that spells are skills.  The cost to cast goes down by 1 at 15 and 20.  At 21+ you can cast at a glance.  Regular spells are -1 per hex.  Missile spells are Accuracy 1, 1/2Damage 50, and Max 150 you can add 1d per round up to 3 + your skill discount.  Area spells multiply their cost by the radius.  Blocking Spells are defense rolls.  Enchantments are 1 day per point. ( I think enchanted items should do more than let you cast a spell you don't know, I suggest they should have 1 charge per enchantment put into them)  Duration would generally be a minute but the maintain cost would be 1/2 casting cost and you'd get your skill discount on it so keeping a spell like Flight up indefinantly would be more practical. Structurally spell costs should mirror advantage and skill costs with a general +1 to a skills costing 1 point and attributes costing 2.  The standard casting time is 1 second and I don't aim to mess with it much though maybe 1 second per point of energy would be the way to go.  Yes this would make things like Drain Life more useful in combat.  Enchantment costs would be a pretty standard x 100 but that would be for one use.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 27, 2021, 12:25:38 AM
No, GURPS is on Amazon print on demand.  SJG has largely abandoned retail GURPS.  I'm not going to disagree with a decision based on sales data I don't have.  The way they're handling GURPS is the way they find it makes them the most money.

So Gurps is done then.

World of Darkness went to a POD model a few years after they got bought out by a video game company. "Handling their IP the way they find it makes them the most money."

And it went downhill from there.

The perennial #2 RPG in the hobby for over a decade now barely registers as a fart in 5e's wake.

Although evidently you can find people who play V5.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 27, 2021, 12:25:38 AM
Powered by GURPS stuff like Vorkosigian and Discworld haven't been huge successes. ....

They made what about who?

The fact that those were done at all shows how distant SJG had become from the mainstream RPG hobby.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 27, 2021, 12:25:38 AM
I've been putting my simple 3d6 stuff together after shooting my mouth off in a GURPS thread on tbp.  ...Still, I've got to admit that between this and the tbp WIR Banestorm thread, I'm beginning to think there might be sufficient interest to put it together.  It's just, I can't please everyone and GURPS is a lot of different things to different people.

FWIW I feel GeekyBugle is right.

Whatever you do: Don't try to please everyone.

Take a risk, try to deliver something different to catch peoples interest.

Best of luck.

Quote from: Jaeger on April 26, 2021, 05:19:05 PM
Even GURPS "lite" could be streamlined.

In the 4e lite there are several places where they have you dividing by decimal places for things like movement, Range, throwing range, wounding modifiers...

All that decimal shit needs to go. New players and especially GM's see that crap and the book goes right back on the store shelf, or they do not click "add to cart" after seeing that crap in a preview.

Gurps needs a fundamental rethink about what kind of system it wants to be.

And I'll be the heretic and say it: moving to 2d10 instead of 3d6 would be better for the system.

I'll climb right up on the bonfire with you.  If someone built a streamlined GURPS based on 2d10 for resolution, I'd buy it and run it simply because they made the effort.  If it was halfway decent, I'd probably run it a lot.  A lot of edge cases go away or at least become trivial with that change.

https://anydice.com/program/c055

So why use 2D10 over 3D6? Serious question...in my opinion, one of the perks of GURPS is that you can get dice for it pretty much anywhere. Is it just because of the smoother curve?

Well, there's this one: http://www.uncouthsavage.com/uploads/1/3/3/2/133279619/3d6fmt.pdf

Would 1d20 roll under be close enough?

http://www.uncouthsavage.com/uploads/1/3/3/2/133279619/fivestat.pdf

I actually started filing the serial numbers off the summary I posted.  Awareness for Perception, Physique for Strength and so forth, but just like every time I've done so, it quickly drifted away as a dozen things became attributes.  I think the value of GURPS is partially in the shared language for describing things it presents.  That's where calling everything something else really doesn't work out or serve any purpose.

Here's a little project I stayed up too late putting together last night.

http://www.uncouthsavage.com/uploads/1/3/3/2/133279619/gurpscard.pdf

In hindsight I should have done it on a playing card instead of a business card.  I could have gone with 9point type and SJG prints a lot of playing cards.  It works as a "GURPS isn't that hard" promotional type thing.