I'm not going to link to the thread at TBP nor will I quote it. It's the one where Phil Masters (of Steve Jackson Games) got a ban for explaining what the disadvantage "slave mentality" means in Gurps.

In that thread, he basically says there will not be a 5th edition for Gurps, unless the RPG market drastically changes, and the popularity for Gurps increases. It's not really a surprise, but hearing it from Phil makes it real.

What I find hard to believe is why they won't Kickstart it. The diehard fans alone would fund it, assuming it did not have an astronomical funding goal. Throw in a bunch of 4th Edition PDFs as stretch goals and it would skyrocket. The Dungeon Fantasy KS made $176,450 over a $100,000 goal, which isn't a spectacular success but it's a success nonetheless.

As a start, they could simply make a new Gurps Lite, which is something we've wanted since the beginning. Something that could appeal to D&D players who are looking for more realism or grittiness. There's definitely a market there, as evidenced by OSR games that try to do exactly that.

Quote from: Aglondir on April 23, 2021, 02:12:27 AM
I'm not going to link to the thread at TBP nor will I quote it. It's the one where Phil Masters (of Steve Jackson Games) got a ban for explaining what the disadvantage "slave mentality" means in Gurps.

In that thread, he basically says there will not be a 5th edition for Gurps, unless the RPG market drastically changes, and the popularity for Gurps increases. It's not really a surprise, but hearing it from Phil makes it real.

What I find hard to believe is why they won't Kickstart it. The diehard fans alone would fund it, assuming it did not have an astronomical funding goal. Throw in a bunch of 4th Edition PDFs as stretch goals and it would skyrocket. The Dungeon Fantasy KS made $176,450 over a $100,000 goal, which isn't a spectacular success but it's a success nonetheless.

As a start, they could simply make a new Gurps Lite, which is something we've wanted since the beginning. Something that could appeal to D&D players who are looking for more realism or grittiness. There's definitely a market there, as evidenced by OSR games that try to do exactly that.

Imho, what they need is to take the engine and publish focused games, start with whatever they think it does best, and make a full game, in a single book, They already have lots of source books, but they won't get new players if they have to learn a brick with all it's fiddly bits and own also several other bricks and understand how to put them together to play X.

It's the same issue Hero System has, they stoped making full games and instead publish two massive bricks plus source books. I'm not buying all that shit, and then I would need to understand it enough to put it together.

Why would they need a 5th edition? To simplify things? I doubt it. Full games IMHO.

I like Phil a lot—and SJ has a brilliant mind for mechanics and building games. I backed TFT, picking up the legendary edition (or whatever it was called) and gifted a second one to my brother. It took around a year to get it, and after, they immediately launched another KS for add on items to further support the system.

I found the way they were bringing it to market annoying, and I don't want to fill out my SJGs Christmas list each year. I get it..if you can do math and understand the business at all, you can almost guarantee to not lose money with KS. However, they have resources and are an established company. They could have been producing that shit and putting it in their stores.

That said, I hope there is a GURPS 5e. We need talented people to continue to make games. I would also support the idea of full games over a 5e.

No GURPS 5e has pretty much been the official line for over a decade.  And, you know?  I'm good with that, 4e isn't perfect but 5e won't be either.  I'm sick of the supplement mill.  No new edition is great news.  What chafes me is that support has been dialed back to micro supplements.  Worse still, no world books, has been policy for a long time now.  Oh well little mechanical tidbits can be nice.  There's a lovely space ship crew pdf that's really handy.  Dribs and drabs of vehicles scattered across a thousand pdfs.  Sure you have to sort through the tables of contents for dozens of issues of Pyramid to find some of them.  But I guess focused supplements don't sell as well. They've got the numbers, they know you know?

Well, as long as Munchkin is their primary Cashcow. I also got the feeling that gurps is the unloved stepchild of SJG.

I looked at their latest stakeholder's report, and they talk about the huge growth in D&D, but don't talk about any growth of GURPS. Which should be no surprise, because they've chosen to cater to a niche and shrinking corner of the market.

Also noticed that SJG made less money last year than than year before. And when I looked back through their stakeholder's reports, and that's been true every year since 2013. Over that period, they've declined from $8.8 to $4 million. Though to be fair, that was the peak of a huge spike in revenue -- 2009 was just $3 million. They're well past peak Munchkin, but it's still inflating their revenues.

http://www.sjgames.com/general/stakeholders/

Quote from: Pat on April 23, 2021, 10:56:23 AM
I looked at their latest stakeholder's report, and they talk about the huge growth in D&D, but don't talk about any growth of GURPS. Which should be no surprise, because they've chosen to cater to a niche and shrinking corner of the market.

Also noticed that SJG made less money last year than than year before. And when I looked back through their stakeholder's reports, and that's been true every year since 2013. Over that period, they've declined from $8.8 to $4 million. Though to be fair, that was the peak of a huge spike in revenue -- 2009 was just $3 million. They're well past peak Munchkin, but it's still inflating their revenues.

http://www.sjgames.com/general/stakeholders/

Then maybe the time is nigh for SJG to eather Buckle up and do something, or vanish over the next Years.

Quote from: CookieMonster on April 23, 2021, 11:03:40 AM
Then maybe the time is nigh for SJG to eather Buckle up and do something, or vanish over the next Years.

Looks like they were in the $2.5–3 million category for much of the aughts, and with the growth of board games since, as well as a few successful Kickstarters under their belt, I wouldn't be surprised if they could maintain that level or higher without Munchkin.

Quote from: Pat on April 23, 2021, 11:17:45 AM

Quote from: CookieMonster on April 23, 2021, 11:03:40 AM
Then maybe the time is nigh for SJG to eather Buckle up and do something, or vanish over the next Years.

Looks like they were in the $2.5–3 million category for much of the aughts, and with the growth of board games since, as well as a few successful Kickstarters under their belt, I wouldn't be surprised if they could maintain that level or higher without Munchkin.

Yeah you are propably right, we will see what the Future brings for them.

Quote from: Pat on April 23, 2021, 10:56:23 AM
I looked at their latest stakeholder's report, and they talk about the huge growth in D&D, but don't talk about any growth of GURPS. Which should be no surprise, because they've chosen to cater to a niche and shrinking corner of the market.

   OTOH, is anyone seeing any spillover growth from D&D's huge success? Conventional wisdom was that a growing D&D feeds into the rest of the industry as well, but with the new emphasis on 'lifestyle branding', I'm not so sure that's true any more.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 23, 2021, 11:37:57 AM

   OTOH, is anyone seeing any spillover growth from D&D's huge success? Conventional wisdom was that a growing D&D feeds into the rest of the industry as well, but with the new emphasis on 'lifestyle branding', I'm not so sure that's true any more.

I think there is pent up demand for spillover into another game due to modest dissatisfaction with 5E.  Does a game or small set of games answer that dissatisfaction well enough to get people to act?  No real clue, but I doubt it.  Perhaps the right game could carve out space.  I could see a GURPS Lite/Focused Complete Game combo being that game, but a lot of other things would need to go right for it to happen.  The "non-current edition D&D" space is more diffuse than ever before.  So even if movement was starting from 5E, I don't know that it would register enough to notice.

There are also people that grow dissatisfied with current edition D&D and drop out of gaming altogether.  Always has been.  I suspect that's where most of the potential spillover goes right now.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 23, 2021, 11:37:57 AM

Quote from: Pat on April 23, 2021, 10:56:23 AM
I looked at their latest stakeholder's report, and they talk about the huge growth in D&D, but don't talk about any growth of GURPS. Which should be no surprise, because they've chosen to cater to a niche and shrinking corner of the market.

   OTOH, is anyone seeing any spillover growth from D&D's huge success? Conventional wisdom was that a growing D&D feeds into the rest of the industry as well, but with the new emphasis on 'lifestyle branding', I'm not so sure that's true any more.

idk about the branding but aren't as many companies able to publish and present themselves as D&D alternatives in the same space. Spillover starts casual so won't know to look on itch.io or drivethru or whereverthefuck to get started. Real accessibility issue at present.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 23, 2021, 11:37:57 AM
OTOH, is anyone seeing any spillover growth from D&D's huge success? Conventional wisdom was that a growing D&D feeds into the rest of the industry as well, but with the new emphasis on 'lifestyle branding', I'm not so sure that's true any more.

Nah its the networking effect.  I tried to start up a game of Fate Dresden Files but because it wasn't D&D Fantasy Medieval gaming almost the whole group dropped out.  If no one wants to play Earthdawn, Shadowrun, Rifts, Soulbound, Star Wars (FFG or d6), or even 2e then those games aren't going to have any market share.

It's the DMG problem.  No one buys them.  Because there's 1 DM to like 1-10+ players.  Funny enough Adventurer's League made that ratio worse.

Also lol at GURPS being slimmed down.  Maybe I'm missing something because last I played was 3e (is that the one with the black cover around the turn of the century?) but when we played Fantasy Medieval it felt more streamlined than D&D 2e.  Complexity is just because of the modularity.

Quote from: KingCheops on April 23, 2021, 12:35:30 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 23, 2021, 11:37:57 AM
OTOH, is anyone seeing any spillover growth from D&D's huge success? Conventional wisdom was that a growing D&D feeds into the rest of the industry as well, but with the new emphasis on 'lifestyle branding', I'm not so sure that's true any more.

Nah its the networking effect.  I tried to start up a game of Fate Dresden Files but because it wasn't D&D Fantasy Medieval gaming almost the whole group dropped out.  If no one wants to play Earthdawn, Shadowrun, Rifts, Soulbound, Star Wars (FFG or d6), or even 2e then those games aren't going to have any market share.

It's the DMG problem.  No one buys them.  Because there's 1 DM to like 1-10+ players.  Funny enough Adventurer's League made that ratio worse.

Also lol at GURPS being slimmed down.  Maybe I'm missing something because last I played was 3e (is that the one with the black cover around the turn of the century?) but when we played Fantasy Medieval it felt more streamlined than D&D 2e.  Complexity is just because of the modularity.

Yep that was the third edition you played.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 23, 2021, 11:37:57 AM

Quote from: Pat on April 23, 2021, 10:56:23 AM
I looked at their latest stakeholder's report, and they talk about the huge growth in D&D, but don't talk about any growth of GURPS. Which should be no surprise, because they've chosen to cater to a niche and shrinking corner of the market.

   OTOH, is anyone seeing any spillover growth from D&D's huge success? Conventional wisdom was that a growing D&D feeds into the rest of the industry as well, but with the new emphasis on 'lifestyle branding', I'm not so sure that's true any more.

All I have seen from the success of current D&D only benefits current D&D. There is no spillover to others in the industry.