Quote from: CookieMonster on April 24, 2021, 11:26:22 AM

Quote from: This Guy on April 24, 2021, 03:01:32 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 23, 2021, 11:38:15 PM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on April 23, 2021, 11:27:22 PM


They chose to give up on the world books and go for the gearhead stuff instead. Much like Traveller 5e. That's what comes of listening to your online forum fan base instead of actual gamers.

I disagree. There was a lot of push for an introductory version of Traveller when rumblings of T5 began. 13Mann was working on Liftoff, a starter version of Traveller before the project got cancelled for reasons unknown.

Traveller5 is gearhead-ish, but it also is made for people who have been playing Traveller for decades. Traveller5 is definitely not made for a gamer looking for a new game to by introduced to and try out.

Haven't looked at T5 in a couple ages or so, did they ever fix the errata from the first printing. Drove me off more than the rules

If i remember correctly with release of T 5.1 they splittet the book in three smaller ones and put the errata in it.

Awesome, that's going back on the to buy list then, thanks

Quote from: CookieMonster on April 24, 2021, 11:26:22 AM

Quote from: This Guy on April 24, 2021, 03:01:32 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 23, 2021, 11:38:15 PM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on April 23, 2021, 11:27:22 PM


They chose to give up on the world books and go for the gearhead stuff instead. Much like Traveller 5e. That's what comes of listening to your online forum fan base instead of actual gamers.

I disagree. There was a lot of push for an introductory version of Traveller when rumblings of T5 began. 13Mann was working on Liftoff, a starter version of Traveller before the project got cancelled for reasons unknown.

Traveller5 is gearhead-ish, but it also is made for people who have been playing Traveller for decades. Traveller5 is definitely not made for a gamer looking for a new game to by introduced to and try out.

Haven't looked at T5 in a couple ages or so, did they ever fix the errata from the first printing. Drove me off more than the rules

If i remember correctly with release of T 5.1 they splittet the book in three smaller ones and put the errata in it.

Yes. It is still a pretty hefty set of rules, though. Great for mining ideas, but I wouldn't want to get some to play it.

Quote from: Aglondir on April 23, 2021, 02:12:27 AM
I'm not going to link to the thread at TBP nor will I quote it. It's the one where Phil Masters (of Steve Jackson Games) got a ban for explaining what the disadvantage "slave mentality" means in Gurps.

In that thread, he basically says there will not be a 5th edition for Gurps, unless the RPG market drastically changes, and the popularity for Gurps increases. It's not really a surprise, but hearing it from Phil makes it real.

What I find hard to believe is why they won't Kickstart it. The diehard fans alone would fund it, assuming it did not have an astronomical funding goal. Throw in a bunch of 4th Edition PDFs as stretch goals and it would skyrocket. The Dungeon Fantasy KS made $176,450 over a $100,000 goal, which isn't a spectacular success but it's a success nonetheless.

As a start, they could simply make a new Gurps Lite, which is something we've wanted since the beginning. Something that could appeal to D&D players who are looking for more realism or grittiness. There's definitely a market there, as evidenced by OSR games that try to do exactly that.

  I love GURPS, but I have to ask, what was the reason given for Masters getting banned for explaining a disadvantage in GURPS?  Was it using the word 'slave'?  I will also say, I think if there is a place GURPS could push up the interest I think a release of lite rules, and gearing a series of adventures towards various genres is a fantastic idea.  I love the world books, but if they are not going to do that, genre themed adventures seems like a great way to give the old school fans something to buy.  I always felt their issue with drawing new fans is the art is not good, and the iconic characters are pretty terrible.   I always felt like they needed to get a setting or two, and the system would have been FANTASTIC for a fallout table top game or RIFTS, Flash Gordon, or something similar.  The rules are great for gritty or pulpy sci fi or Sword and Sorcery.  I think they really should have developed a setting around those themes years ago.  The infinite worlds idea was presented as pretty damned blah. 

Masters got banned for defending the use of the word "slave" and implying that it's a stupid thing to freak out about.

anyhow...

If the plan is to just keep the core in print, and do everything else on-line and I was doing a 4.5 edition the pages wasted on iconic characters and Infinite Worlds would be replaced with the new advantages from powers, more spells, more animals, more martial arts techniques, and more fantasy templates.  I'd probably try to find a good hyper realistic artist to do very evocative but grounded illustrations.

I'd want to make the core stand alone as much as possible.

Now, I know that screws with page references and the cross referencing is one of the reasons there will never be a 5th edition.  But screw it, if ever thing else is pdf we should be able to update all that with a decently smart search and replace function.

I'll always want a GURPS starter with 1/32 action figures in the box and a big modular, build your own science fiction vehicle kit.  But I'd want a space opera starter rather than a fantasy one.

Quote from: Hakdov on April 23, 2021, 10:28:20 PM
I'd rather they reprint 3rd edition than make a new one.  I hated 4e Gurps in just about every way.  Way, way more complicated than I wanted and the artwork was an abortion.

I am firmly in this camp myself, but every time I bring it up someone will educate me about how much better 4th is...the 3rd hardback is the perfect set of rules for a gritty fantasy game, and can also be used for most modern stuff like spy or military games without much effort. I preferred the "advantages in world books" design before they released the compendiums because the whole point was to have stuff that directly pertained to that setting. I can understand moving some of them into the main book with the revised edition (Contacts for instance), but a lot of that stuff really has no place in a BASIC set if you ask me. Doesn't bother me that much, though, when compared to the atrocity that is 4th. That is some bloated bullshit.

Quote from: Brad on April 25, 2021, 10:54:38 AM

Quote from: Hakdov on April 23, 2021, 10:28:20 PM
I'd rather they reprint 3rd edition than make a new one.  I hated 4e Gurps in just about every way.  Way, way more complicated than I wanted and the artwork was an abortion.

I am firmly in this camp myself, but every time I bring it up someone will educate me about how much better 4th is...

4th is so much better.

Oh well now that that's out of the way, my ideal GURPS isn't set up like 4e but I do like the idea of a really complete rulebook, as long as Vehicles is Core Set volume 3.  Mechanically I'm mostly happy with fourth, Personally, I'd change ranged combat, I find people really hate it an I'd list skills as stat - 2 etc rather than "easy, average, hard" then the chart would be just two columns and if anyone finds that impenetrable, I swear I'll punch them in the face.

If you want a one book point of entry, something like 3rd edition is the way to go.   I think you need to cover fantasy in the core, at least enough to get people to try it.  That's the one weakness I see in GURPS lite 4e is that you can't play a basic fantasy game with it.

Ideally, Lite would be the core.  Bulk up the page count a bit with art and a little more discussion on how to use all this stuff.  But every book should be usable with nothing more than lite.

The biggest problem fourth edition faces is that it's far too much for new players to get into.  I don't mind the idea of an ultimate reference work but ideally it would be a database where you could select elements to generate and print out a book to give your players.

Quote from: David Johansen on April 25, 2021, 12:07:05 PM
The biggest problem fourth edition faces is that it's far too much for new players to get into.  I don't mind the idea of an ultimate reference work but ideally it would be a database where you could select elements to generate and print out a book to give your players.

This is the perfect solution for a GM to create exactly the rules they want to present to new players.
The main problem is players both being overwhelmed with options at character creation and relying on options that the GM  won't be using.

Quote from: DocJones on April 25, 2021, 01:49:25 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on April 25, 2021, 12:07:05 PM
The biggest problem fourth edition faces is that it's far too much for new players to get into.  I don't mind the idea of an ultimate reference work but ideally it would be a database where you could select elements to generate and print out a book to give your players.

This is the perfect solution for a GM to create exactly the rules they want to present to new players.
The main problem is players both being overwhelmed with options at character creation and relying on options that the GM  won't be using.

So you're always relying on experienced GMs, because it's harder to get a good grasp of the system. Full games, maybe make the Core book the Fantasy one (seems to be the most popular genre), then make another full game with a different bent, Sci-Fi? And then publish "world" books with the extrabits and clear instructions on what to remove from the core book to make it work with the new setting.

Now you can have an influx on new blood into your market demographic.

But what do I know, I'm just some idiot in the interwebs.

I am very not a fan of gurps or SJG. But 3e is for me the best of the editions I've seen so far. There is just something about 4e that feels... lacking?

The main problem with gurps is one thats been discussed here there and everywhere.
Its a big tree that seriously needs to be pruned to fit the campaign. Or a very big toolbox that you need to know which tools to use and which to leave in the box.

And for that you need an experienced DM or at least one good at assembling something from parts, or with a firm idea of what they want and the ability to say "no" to things that dont fit. Otherwise its like any toolbox game and you can end up lost in the sea of options. BESM is another that can suffer from that.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 02:22:25 PM

Quote from: DocJones on April 25, 2021, 01:49:25 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on April 25, 2021, 12:07:05 PM
The biggest problem fourth edition faces is that it's far too much for new players to get into.  I don't mind the idea of an ultimate reference work but ideally it would be a database where you could select elements to generate and print out a book to give your players.

This is the perfect solution for a GM to create exactly the rules they want to present to new players.
The main problem is players both being overwhelmed with options at character creation and relying on options that the GM  won't be using.

So you're always relying on experienced GMs, because it's harder to get a good grasp of the system. Full games, maybe make the Core book the Fantasy one (seems to be the most popular genre), then make another full game with a different bent, Sci-Fi? And then publish "world" books with the extrabits and clear instructions on what to remove from the core book to make it work with the new setting.

Now you can have an influx on new blood into your market demographic.

But what do I know, I'm just some idiot in the interwebs.

You're kind of describing the "Powered by GURPS" branding during 3e. It was a bunch of stand-alone books, each incorporating a version of GURPS Lite tweaked to fit that setting. Discworld, Transhuman Space, Hellboy, etc. They were complete games, playable without any additional books, but compatible with the rest of the line.

I always thought it was a decent approach, and they should focus more on GURPS Lite. But they went full gearhead for 4e, catering to the hardcore end of the fanbase who obsessed over gun stats and vehicles. From that standpoint, 4e is clearly superior. It cleans up a few technical problems, and brings everything together into two tomes. But from an on-ramp for new players standpoint, it's clearly inferior.

My 3e came with the Lite rules which really made the whole thing alot easier to get a handle on.

Quote from: Pat on April 25, 2021, 03:04:41 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 02:22:25 PM

Quote from: DocJones on April 25, 2021, 01:49:25 PM

Quote from: David Johansen on April 25, 2021, 12:07:05 PM
The biggest problem fourth edition faces is that it's far too much for new players to get into.  I don't mind the idea of an ultimate reference work but ideally it would be a database where you could select elements to generate and print out a book to give your players.

This is the perfect solution for a GM to create exactly the rules they want to present to new players.
The main problem is players both being overwhelmed with options at character creation and relying on options that the GM  won't be using.

So you're always relying on experienced GMs, because it's harder to get a good grasp of the system. Full games, maybe make the Core book the Fantasy one (seems to be the most popular genre), then make another full game with a different bent, Sci-Fi? And then publish "world" books with the extrabits and clear instructions on what to remove from the core book to make it work with the new setting.

Now you can have an influx on new blood into your market demographic.

But what do I know, I'm just some idiot in the interwebs.

You're kind of describing the "Powered by GURPS" branding during 3e. It was a bunch of stand-alone books, each incorporating a version of GURPS Lite tweaked to fit that setting. Discworld, Transhuman Space, Hellboy, etc. They were complete games, playable without any additional books, but compatible with the rest of the line.

I always thought it was a decent approach, and they should focus more on GURPS Lite. But they went full gearhead for 4e, catering to the hardcore end of the fanbase who obsessed over gun stats and vehicles. From that standpoint, 4e is clearly superior. It cleans up a few technical problems, and brings everything together into two tomes. But from an on-ramp for new players standpoint, it's clearly inferior.

Well, now I need some spare money to buy at least one of those to give it a read/try.

But GURPS Lite uses less attributes and has other changes no?

Why not use the full core to build those? After getting in because of one you might buy others, or the plain core + world books, provided there's clear instructions on how to use those together.

And HERO has the same problem, they USED to publish full games, then they turned away from that and only do the damn bullet sttoping bricks.

Why is it that SWN, White Star, and other OSR based games sell? Those are full games, you don't need to also buy S&W and know how to combine things. Easier to grook and easier to GM plus new players can latter become new GMs.

No, GURPS lite is full on GURPS, it's actually a really dense book.  But no GURPS has STrength, DeXterity, InQuelligence, and HealTh.  With Fatigue equaling Health, Hitpoints equal to Strength, and Perception and Willpower being equal to Intelligence with all of them being purchasable independently.  Speed is a calculated stat.  Yes first to third edition do it a bit differently but the core four stats remain the same.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 03:17:50 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 25, 2021, 03:04:41 PM
You're kind of describing the "Powered by GURPS" branding during 3e. It was a bunch of stand-alone books, each incorporating a version of GURPS Lite tweaked to fit that setting. Discworld, Transhuman Space, Hellboy, etc. They were complete games, playable without any additional books, but compatible with the rest of the line.

Well, now I need some spare money to buy at least one of those to give it a read/try.

You might be able to save yourself some money. While none of the Powered by GURPS books are free, the GURPS Lite versions customized for at least two of those books are are available as free PDFs:

GURPS Lite for WW2 (3e) http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/ww2/img/ww2lite.pdf
GURPS Lite for Transhuman Space (3e) http://www.sjgames.com/transhuman/img/lite.pdf

Compare to the generic version of GURPS Lite 3e:
http://www.warehouse23.com/products/SJG30-6094
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/3e/gurpslite.pdf

GURPS Lite uses the same 4 attributes as the full version of GURPS. It's trimmed down, not a variant.

Quote from: Pat on April 25, 2021, 06:42:26 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 25, 2021, 03:17:50 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 25, 2021, 03:04:41 PM
You're kind of describing the "Powered by GURPS" branding during 3e. It was a bunch of stand-alone books, each incorporating a version of GURPS Lite tweaked to fit that setting. Discworld, Transhuman Space, Hellboy, etc. They were complete games, playable without any additional books, but compatible with the rest of the line.

Well, now I need some spare money to buy at least one of those to give it a read/try.

You might be able to save yourself some money. While none of the Powered by GURPS books are free, the GURPS Lite versions customized for at least two of those books are are available as free PDFs:

GURPS Lite for WW2 (3e) http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/ww2/img/ww2lite.pdf
GURPS Lite for Transhuman Space (3e) http://www.sjgames.com/transhuman/img/lite.pdf

Compare to the generic version of GURPS Lite 3e:
http://www.warehouse23.com/products/SJG30-6094
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/3e/gurpslite.pdf

GURPS Lite uses the same 4 attributes as the full version of GURPS. It's trimmed down, not a variant.

Well thanks, downloading.