Some people say that the Old School Revival has already done everything it needed to do. That could be true.
But it's also true that the Old School Renaissance is more important, and more successful than ever, as the biggest indie design movement of all time.
#ttrpg #dnd #OSR

Count down to the usual suspects intent on diluting the term until it means nothing.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 24, 2024, 02:38:41 AMCount down to the usual suspects intent on diluting the term until it means nothing.

Well thats what they do. The OSR has produced so many cool products that have not been tainted by woke bullshit and the woke asshats cannot stand that. They must infect every aspect of culture, and there can be no bastions of sanity left to compare to their mindless drivel.

I partially agree and disagree with the video, I'm most certainly in agreement that OSR as a design school strengths laid in  it's limitations.

Limitations tend to place selection bias on creativity, the creators worst enemy is a tabula rasa, the blank sheet comes with it choice paralysis, picking OD&D, B/X or AD&D as a north star is pretty ingenious.

At the same time I think we should be wary of being too married to that notion, hence we get this psudo-Gyaxian cult of trying to find what Ur-D&D is, like you mentioned dice pools, I don't see why you couldn't make a dice-pool version of B/X with skills?

same character attribute and class-niche protection  but instead of rolling a d20 for attacking and skills you roll d6s, maybe I'm stupid but I can't discern a clear reason why a certain mechanic does or does not exclude an OSR game? there is no hard line you can draw in the sand that doesn't either includes games that clearly don't belong or exclude games that do. (except maybe point buy)

Hence I'm not interested in any attempt at which to define the OSR on mechanical terms cause that's totally fruitless, the OSR has a spirit about it, not a law.

Quote from: Socratic-DM on May 24, 2024, 07:42:23 PMI partially agree and disagree with the video, I'm most certainly in agreement that OSR as a design school strengths laid in  it's limitations.

Limitations tend to place selection bias on creativity, the creators worst enemy is a tabula rasa, the blank sheet comes with it choice paralysis, picking OD&D, B/X or AD&D as a north star is pretty ingenious.

At the same time I think we should be wary of being too married to that notion, hence we get this psudo-Gyaxian cult of trying to find what Ur-D&D is, like you mentioned dice pools, I don't see why you couldn't make a dice-pool version of B/X with skills?

same character attribute and class-niche protection  but instead of rolling a d20 for attacking and skills you roll d6s, maybe I'm stupid but I can't discern a clear reason why a certain mechanic does or does not exclude an OSR game? there is no hard line you can draw in the sand that doesn't either includes games that clearly don't belong or exclude games that do. (except maybe point buy)

Hence I'm not interested in any attempt at which to define the OSR on mechanical terms cause that's totally fruitless, the OSR has a spirit about it, not a law.

So, OSR means different things to different people, but I like to use it as a label of (rough) compatibility with TSR.

It means you can use TSR modules with little conversion.

In this sense, DCC does a few things different, but has a strong OSR aesthetic. It has the "spirit", as you say.

Anyway, could you have dice-pool B/X? It would be hard, because AC wouldn't be easy to convert, for example.

But it is possible - ESPECIALLY for skill, since B/X has a dozen different systems for things like climbing (percentage versus ability check) and hiding (the halfling class has TWO different systems - 90% and 2-in-6).

IIRC lamentations of the flame princess is experimenting with dice pool saving throws.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on May 24, 2024, 09:15:40 PM

Quote from: Socratic-DM on May 24, 2024, 07:42:23 PMI partially agree and disagree with the video, I'm most certainly in agreement that OSR as a design school strengths laid in  it's limitations.

Limitations tend to place selection bias on creativity, the creators worst enemy is a tabula rasa, the blank sheet comes with it choice paralysis, picking OD&D, B/X or AD&D as a north star is pretty ingenious.

At the same time I think we should be wary of being too married to that notion, hence we get this psudo-Gyaxian cult of trying to find what Ur-D&D is, like you mentioned dice pools, I don't see why you couldn't make a dice-pool version of B/X with skills?

same character attribute and class-niche protection  but instead of rolling a d20 for attacking and skills you roll d6s, maybe I'm stupid but I can't discern a clear reason why a certain mechanic does or does not exclude an OSR game? there is no hard line you can draw in the sand that doesn't either includes games that clearly don't belong or exclude games that do. (except maybe point buy)

Hence I'm not interested in any attempt at which to define the OSR on mechanical terms cause that's totally fruitless, the OSR has a spirit about it, not a law.

So, OSR means different things to different people, but I like to use it as a label of (rough) compatibility with TSR.

It means you can use TSR modules with little conversion.

In this sense, DCC does a few things different, but has a strong OSR aesthetic. It has the "spirit", as you say.

Anyway, could you have dice-pool B/X? It would be hard, because AC wouldn't be easy to convert, for example.

But it is possible - ESPECIALLY for skill, since B/X has a dozen different systems for things like climbing (percentage versus ability check) and hiding (the halfling class has TWO different systems - 90% and 2-in-6).

IIRC lamentations of the flame princess is experimenting with dice pool saving throws.

If it clues you in, while perhaps a full on dice pool system for an OSR game would be kinda of hard (though I think possible) I'm designing a Modern-setting OSR where the "magic-powers" are a risked dice pool mechanic, and it's worked pretty well with my two playtest groups, so it can work at least as a sub-mechanic.

Though I am open to shifting to something else, though I haven't found a better fly-wheel risk/reward setup yet.

I've always thought OSR was just "Is it directly compatible with TSR era D&D/AD&D"? And a way to publish material for said games.

But it's been hijacked by grifters and really pretentious people. Still enough good stuff, but far too much gets overlooked by the flood of trendy/kitschy/well marketed crap.

I've always been partial towards the Old School Renaissance interpretation, though that's likely because I got here pretty late.

My categorization of it always hinged around building off the existing D&D framework in a way you can create new games, but with a well designed chassis at base already, and so that your games are still broadly compatible with what a lot of other people are doing already, which is a win for everybody.

I'm always interested in seeing where people consider the lines are, like how Pundit said that point buy is flatly incompatible with OSR. While I definetly prefer rolling for stats, and think that that's more in line with OSR sensibilites, I think that a game that uses point buy could still be compatible with other OSR games and might still be therefore considered OSR itself. Why the hard line against pointbuy?

Quote from: Zenoguy3 on May 25, 2024, 02:05:48 AMWhy the hard line against pointbuy?

The reason is entirely arbitrary. Pundit has a preferred way to play and thinks any deviation from that is garbage.

I mean, it's not like many of the old TSR pregens in modules were actually randomly rolled.

It's not like there weren't groups everywhere doing "put 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13 in whatever order you like and start with max hp" as a generation method (heck, I encountered that one far more often than rolling for chargen back in the day).

So, yeah, it's various personalities making a claim that their way was the OneTrueWay and everything else isn't actually the "true" OSR.

Some other personality will tell you something completely different and because it was something that just sorta happened instead of an organized effort there is no OneTrueLeader to sort it all out; just a bunch of competing interests trying to lay claim to an ephemeral crown.

There's reasons I don't OSR; one of the modern ones is far too many OneTrueWayists whose "true ways" look nothing like what I actually saw played in the mid-to-late-80s.

I can't speak for the OP but I don't think point buy (or skills, or feats, or combat maneuvers) is in any way incompatible to the OSR.

When I say "compatibility with TSR" I do not mean theoretically, I'm actually running classic TSR modules and I don't want to do much conversion during the game. I also use old school monster manuals and encounter tables. This all despite of not running any TSR game (I use my own retroclone, Dark Fantasy Basic).

Of course, there are few "hard lines", since TSR contains many variations: roll high, roll low, 1d20, 2d6, 1d100, additional abilities (comeliness), race as class or separated, sci-fi aspects and entire games, NWP, WP, etc.

But the more conversion you need the farther you are.

Here is a curious example from Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/osr/comments/1d06tya/can_anyone_weigh_in_on_whether_our_game_is_osr_or/

Quote from: Eric Diaz on May 25, 2024, 09:59:54 AMI can't speak for the OP but I don't think point buy (or skills, or feats, or combat maneuvers) is in any way incompatible to the OSR.

When I say "compatibility with TSR" I do not mean theoretically, I'm actually running classic TSR modules and I don't want to do much conversion during the game. I also use old school monster manuals and encounter tables. This all despite of not running any TSR game (I use my own retroclone, Dark Fantasy Basic).

Of course, there are few "hard lines", since TSR contains many variations: roll high, roll low, 1d20, 2d6, 1d100, additional abilities (comeliness), race as class or separated, sci-fi aspects and entire games, NWP, WP, etc.

But the more conversion you need the farther you are.

Here is a curious example from Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/osr/comments/1d06tya/can_anyone_weigh_in_on_whether_our_game_is_osr_or/

Old school is comprised of more than just older TSR games. A tweaked clone of Traveler qualifies as old school IMHO.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on May 25, 2024, 10:31:21 AM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on May 25, 2024, 09:59:54 AMI can't speak for the OP but I don't think point buy (or skills, or feats, or combat maneuvers) is in any way incompatible to the OSR.

When I say "compatibility with TSR" I do not mean theoretically, I'm actually running classic TSR modules and I don't want to do much conversion during the game. I also use old school monster manuals and encounter tables. This all despite of not running any TSR game (I use my own retroclone, Dark Fantasy Basic).

Of course, there are few "hard lines", since TSR contains many variations: roll high, roll low, 1d20, 2d6, 1d100, additional abilities (comeliness), race as class or separated, sci-fi aspects and entire games, NWP, WP, etc.

But the more conversion you need the farther you are.

Here is a curious example from Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/osr/comments/1d06tya/can_anyone_weigh_in_on_whether_our_game_is_osr_or/

Old school is comprised of more than just older TSR games. A tweaked clone of Traveler qualifies as old school IMHO.

Traveler is "old school" but not OSR IMO. I think even the term "OSR" might have been inspired by "TSR" (the old logos certainly have).

If games inspired by Traveler, Runequest, Villains and Vigilantes are OSR, the label loses is usefulness.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on May 25, 2024, 10:31:21 AMOld school is comprised of more than just older TSR games. A tweaked clone of Traveler qualifies as old school IMHO.

And thus the truth of it all; the OSR is a nearly useless marketing term. It means everything and nothing depending on who you ask. For some it means TSR only, others include Traveler and other games from the 70s and sometimes the early 80s. DriveThruRPG lists Zwiehander as OSR.

People can't even agree on what the "R" means. Pundit is now trying to claim it as two separate types, but there's way more than just Revival and Renaissance; I've heard everything from Rules to Revolution also used as the R.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on May 25, 2024, 10:46:15 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on May 25, 2024, 10:31:21 AM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on May 25, 2024, 09:59:54 AMI can't speak for the OP but I don't think point buy (or skills, or feats, or combat maneuvers) is in any way incompatible to the OSR.

When I say "compatibility with TSR" I do not mean theoretically, I'm actually running classic TSR modules and I don't want to do much conversion during the game. I also use old school monster manuals and encounter tables. This all despite of not running any TSR game (I use my own retroclone, Dark Fantasy Basic).

Of course, there are few "hard lines", since TSR contains many variations: roll high, roll low, 1d20, 2d6, 1d100, additional abilities (comeliness), race as class or separated, sci-fi aspects and entire games, NWP, WP, etc.

But the more conversion you need the farther you are.

Here is a curious example from Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/osr/comments/1d06tya/can_anyone_weigh_in_on_whether_our_game_is_osr_or/

Old school is comprised of more than just older TSR games. A tweaked clone of Traveler qualifies as old school IMHO.

Traveler is "old school" but not OSR IMO. I think even the term "OSR" might have been inspired by "TSR" (the old logos certainly have).

If games inspired by Traveler, Runequest, Villains and Vigilantes are OSR, the label loses is usefulness.

Which is (IMHO) the point of including everything under the Sun:

The label looses it's meaning and therefore
it looses it's marketing power.

IMHO not even ALL TSR games or their retroclones ARE OSR, unless you use the D&D mechanics and import the setting.

"When everything is OSR, nothing will be"

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 25, 2024, 10:48:07 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on May 25, 2024, 10:31:21 AMOld school is comprised of more than just older TSR games. A tweaked clone of Traveler qualifies as old school IMHO.

And thus the truth of it all; the OSR is a nearly useless marketing term. It means everything and nothing depending on who you ask. For some it means TSR only, others include Traveler and other games from the 70s and sometimes the early 80s. DriveThruRPG lists Zwiehander as OSR.

People can't even agree on what the "R" means. Pundit is now trying to claim it as two separate types, but there's way more than just Revival and Renaissance; I've heard everything from Rules to Revolution also used as the R.

'Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action'