TheRPGSite

So this past week an OSR Blogger named Gus L threw picked up his toys and declared he was leaving forever, closing down his blog (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?39032-Dungeon-of-Signs-signing-off). The reason, he claimed, was that there was a pernicious Alt-Right influence in the OSR these days and that it had 'ruined' the OSR for ordinary gamers like him.

(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/76779582/how-do-you-do-fellow-gamers.jpg)



He also added some bullshit about the evils of capitalism and how now the OSR was all about making filthy dollars and so it was bad now or something like that, but that's less relevant to what I want to address today.

This has led G+, still the main social media home of the OSR into a tizzy of self-recrimination and witch hunts and declarations of how we need to be inclusive and everyone declaring how bad the Alt-Right Nazis of the OSR are (as opposed to Twitter, the main home of D&D cool kids, where nary a post on the subject was found).  This frantic moral questioning has of course included people loudly declaring "There can't be any evil Gatekeepers in the OSR!" while at the same time saying "So to prevent that we need to let some of us censor and throw out Evil Harassers from the OSR"!  See what they do there?

And of course, some assholes talking a lot about the OSR "Community"; using that now-standard tactic of redefining a design school/hobby as a "Community" because "Community" is a vague term that doesn't require standards to be in it but allows for people claiming to speak for everyone to protect 'community values' and to throw out people who may be players of the game or designers within the school but who they feel break 'community guidelines'. This is how they take control.

I'm still waiting to hear of what 'minorities' have been harassed for OSR games they wrote. I can't think of any myself. No one on G+ that I have seen, including the ones making wild claims, have seem to have been able to bring up even one example.

I CAN think of a few OSR designers who are not (as far as I know) minorities (unless you count me being Latino as a "minority"), who have been harassed or faced censorship by the people who seem the most concerned about declaring this a "community" so that they can take control of said invented "community" and decide who's allowed or not allowed to write or play in it.


So here's what I have to say about this:


Number 1:
I don't know of ANY authors in the OSR who are actually "alt-right".

The people who have written OSR stuff that have gotten the most attacks that I can recall are:

 -Grim Jim (UK Lefist Atheist)
-Venger Satanis (voted for Hillary and still claims she was a good candidate)
-James Raggi (fucked if I know what his politics are, but I'm pretty sure he's not on Richard Spencer's mailing list, and suspect he doesn't even like Trump)
-Zak Smith (douchebag who constantly tries to court the SJW crowd but they want nothing to do with him because he made porn)
-Alexander Macris (Cultural Libertarian)

and myself, a pro-choice pro-LGBT non-Christian Cultural Libertarian with a quaint fondness for Classical Liberal Enlightenment values.


 Note that these people have almost nothing in common. They don't politically agree. So why do they all get attacked, why are they all people who the Totalitarian Left of the hobby has tried to censor or blacklist? Why are some people calling them all "omg alt-right nazis"? Why is Gus L so terrified of us all that he's leaving?

 The one thing they have in common is that everyone on that list (other than Zak) have been absolute in their Defense of Free Speech.  

 THAT is what the SJW Totalitarian Left object to here. That's why they want to pretend that there's nazis in the OSR. And it's also the reason why Gus L is leaving.


 Number 2:
Gus L was one of the main actors in trying to push Ideology into the OSR, on the "SJW" (totalitarian left identity-politics) side of things. He was active in supporting the blacklisting or shunning or censorship of the people on my list above. He was active in social media with trying to define the OSR as a hobby, so that HE (and his fellow 'better people'/ ideological fellow-travelers) could control that 'community' and throw out all his ideological enemies.

His is not the story of a nice guy who just wanted to write about dungeons feeling as though he's been driven out of the hobby by "omg alt-right nazis".
It is the story of a little prick who wanted to control the hobby throwing a tantrum and running away because we wouldn't let him.


 RPGPundit

 Currently Smoking: Lorenzetti Volcano + Blue Boar

OSR is all about capitalism. That's why they write supplements for games out of print for 20 years. It's where the hot money is!

Or was Gus upset about publishers like Troll Lords and Frog God who publish the same book for 5e and OSR?

Or that Goodman knows how to run a business...like a business?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1041060This has led G+, still the main social media home of the OSR into a tizzy of self-recrimination and witch hunts and declarations of how we need to be inclusive and everyone declaring how bad the Alt-Right Nazis of the OSR are (as opposed to Twitter, the main home of D&D cool kids, where nary a post on the subject was found).  This frantic moral questioning has of course included people loudly declaring "There can't be any evil Gatekeepers in the OSR!" while at the same time saying "So to prevent that we need to let some of us censor and throw out Evil Harassers from the OSR"!  See what they do there?

Links!!

Let's see what the the clowns are vomiting this week!

The OSR peeps are diverse politically, but support for free expression and DIY are pretty universal.

It would actually be useful if Gus explained WTF he meant by his screed. Maybe he was just talking about you!!

I think the sjws count most libertarian types as alt right, so that includes Pundit and Macris. I would be surprised if they counted avowed lefties as alt right but you never know with these creatures.

I can think of one case actually - the murderous racialist Varg Vikernes creator of Myfarog rpg is connected to the actual alt right.

Oh no! Someone made a few bucks off their hobby. Our journey to the Fourth Reich is complete... again.

The problem is that alt-right doesn't really have any meaning anymore. Originally it was for Breitbart.com Roger Stone and Milo sort of conservatism, but then got latched onto by Richard Spencer and neo-Nazi types, at which it spread to include to anyone who didn't vehemently denounce Trump with every waking breath, as it's a way to imply that person is racist/a Nazi.

It's like "neo-conservative". Originally it had a very specific meaning, but grew to mean anyone that was either Jewish or hawkish (or both) and was considered a way to attack someone without seeming to be an Anti-Semite.

I noticed that the vast majority of the games mentioned on the thread I started about keeping the hobby cheap were OSR games.

I may not be an author of games but I am a player of OSR games and I would like to say that I am an anarcho-syndicalist Catholic Corbyn supporter who wants Assange freed and thinks that Putin is a better leader than Theresa May.

If there were any Alt-Right gatekeepers of the  OSR as suggested, that would surely be enough to get me banned.

*waits for the red ink* :p

Dude.  You have a forum on your gaming site which you use to push your right wing political views.

It's absolute hypocrisy for you to claim other people are bringing politics into gaming when you're posting political screeds under the name "the RPGpundit.  Whatever their faults may be, you share them.

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1041071I noticed that the vast majority of the games mentioned on the thread I started about keeping the hobby cheap were OSR games.

I may not be an author of games but I am a player of OSR games and I would like to say that I am an anarcho-syndicalist Catholic Corbyn supporter who wants Assange freed and thinks that Putin is a better leader than Theresa May.

If there were any Alt-Right gatekeepers of the  OSR as suggested, that would surely be enough to get me banned.

*waits for the red ink* :p

No, in the eyes of the control Left what you just said makes you Alt Right! As for the Alt Right, even the ones who support the Nazis fighting Russian separatists in Ukraine would agree that Putin is better than May. :)

Quote from: S'mon;1041075No, in the eyes of the control Left what you just said makes you Alt Right! As for the Alt Right, even the ones who support the Nazis fighting Russian separatists in Ukraine would agree that Putin is better than May. :)

LOL Hilarious!

After the recent Mordy Elves discussions, I am sure I am open to the accusation of homophobe, and supporting Assange would make me a misogynist and Corbyn an Anti-Semite. As for Putin, that would make me a Trumpite.

So I guess that would make me a Nazi.

And I never knew...:eek:

Quote from: S'mon;1041067I think the sjws count most libertarian types as alt right,

Everyone without a "Still With Her" bumper sticker is Alt-Right!!

"Everyone who disagrees with me is a nazi", has been the battle cry of the SJW for awhile now.

I am probably a reactionary, but I don't discriminate when it comes to hobby-gaming... lol.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1041068Oh no! Someone made a few bucks off their hobby. Our journey to the Fourth Reich is complete... again.

It's been like that for years. One is supposed to be run a profitable business without making a buck. When that contradiction is pointed out to the person spouting such nonsense they would turn around in a huff and angrily walk away. Now one is a Nazi our a right-wing nutjob according to some.

The Ctrl-Left has been a failed experiment for decades.

So is it bad form if I bring up the fact that Nazis were socialists?

Quote from: Brad;1041087So is it bad form if I bring up the fact that Nazis were socialists?

Go for it. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims) :rolleyes: Mexico is a long way from Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties_of_the_Soviet_Union) so you have little to fear.

Quote from: TJS;1041074Dude.  You have a forum on your gaming site which you use to push your right wing political views.

It's absolute hypocrisy for you to claim other people are bringing politics into gaming when you're posting political screeds under the name "the RPGpundit.  Whatever their faults may be, you share them.

There is a difference between pushing a view and or saying that certain views aren't welcome. It's the difference between missionaries and inquisitors (or commissars in this case).

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1041086The Ctrl-Left has been a failed experiment for decades.

Have they failed, though? They seem to have taken control of university campuses and sections of the media, and are slowly creeping into mainstream political discourse too.

Quote from: Brad;1041087So is it bad form if I bring up the fact that Nazis were socialists?

North Korea is also a Democratic Republic and the States are "United". :D

Quote from: Kiero;1041099Have they failed, though? They seem to have taken control of university campuses and sections of the media, and are slowly creeping into mainstream political discourse too.

Call it failing then... because it ALWAYS fails. The only question is how much damage it does before it does.

In the US it's getting pushback from both the people who elected Trump and the up and coming generation that is more conservative than we've seen in decades. The latest polling and registration trends suggest the touted "Blue Wave" will be a ripple at best and could even be a Tidy Bowl flush instead. If the US continues the reverse course it'll get a couple of decades of prosperity before the control-left can reorganize and try again (they'll always try again).

By contrast Venezuala and the EU are probably going to collapse completely into failed states before the elites lose their socialist death grip on them. If they're lucky they'll end up with a military junta led by a local rebel leader. The alternative is a succession of Globalist/UN backed puppets who will keep the exploitation going until it turns into another North Korea (ie. kept from total collapse only to the extent it benefits the outside power) or, for the EU, a Caliphate and genocide of the native populations.

Socialism always fails because it's underlying principles don't align with reality and reality always wins in the long run. The same will hold true in the RPG hobby. The Control-Left will only hold power in the companies they do to the extent someone other than paying customers are willing to subsidize that control. So long as the market remains free the hobby will likely follow the US model (ie. pushback and recovery) and the big dogs will either follow the course or stop being the big dogs.

Quote from: TJS;1041074Dude.  You have a forum on your gaming site which you use to push your right wing political views.

It's absolute hypocrisy for you to claim other people are bringing politics into gaming when you're posting political screeds under the name "the RPGpundit.  Whatever their faults may be, you share them.

What truly right-wing views does he have? He's just really bad at expressing things in a way that doesn't make him sound like a dickhead (I honestly thought he was the nerdy brother of Gavin McInnes when I first heard him and that guy is an utter moron). If I knew him personally, I'd call him on his shit all the time and I'd expect the same. But that's the difference between this forum and other ones: you can actually call people on their shit on here.

(Yo Pundit, keep doing your video rants on YouTube, you do you!)

Quote from: Sailing Scavenger;1041094There is a difference between pushing a view and or saying that certain views aren't welcome. It's the difference between missionaries and inquisitors (or commissars in this case).

No, Pundit is just being Pundit. This should be in his sub-forum.

Quote from: Brad;1041087So is it bad form if I bring up the fact that Nazis were socialists?

Having "socialists" in your party's name doesn't make you socialist. Oxymoron much? Try your contemporary Libertarian: they're happy to be asocial, entitled twats but the second they meet another like them, they suddenly cry foul and want someone in blue to cart them off.

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1041116Having "socialists" in your party's name doesn't make you socialist. Oxymoron much? Try your contemporary Libertarian: they're happy to be asocial, entitled twats but the second they meet another like them, they suddenly cry foul and want someone in blue to cart them off.

Libertarians are great. They think taxes are a crime, but for some reason expect maintained roads and clean drinking water. We have those types here, who complain about the existence of city workers, and then complain that two feet of snow isn't instantly removed from the roads.

Once again Pundit is dead on. The OSR never had these issues before the killjoy brigade hit town, brining everyone down, slinging mud and totally portraying something as something it is not nor was ever meant to be. If a hillbilly like me can run a diverse group of players weekly in public anybody can. Is everyone at my table white? No. Straight? No. Male? No. Leftist? I'm certainly not. Do any of the differences mean anything to the game? NO. All are welcome and all should be not only welcomed but encouraged to play. THAT is the OSR.

Quote from: bat;1041119Once again Pundit is dead on. The OSR never had these issues before the killjoy brigade hit town, brining everyone down, slinging mud and totally portraying something as something it is not nor was ever meant to be. If a hillbilly like me can run a diverse group of players weekly in public anybody can. Is everyone at my table white? No. Straight? No. Male? No. Leftist? I'm certainly not. Do any of the differences mean anything to the game? NO. All are welcome and all should be not only welcomed but encouraged to play. THAT is the OSR.

My very first DM was Native. I also played RIFTs and Gamma World with his brother, an Indian who wore an Indian's baseball cap. I've played with nearly every demographic.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1041086The Ctrl-Left has been a failed experiment for decades.

How is that 'failed'?  They're in charge in the West.  Something that last for decades is not a failure, wish it was, but it's not.

Well, the only good that can come out of this is if 'OSR' eats itself and it all comes back to being D&D again, which it always was, but people needed to feel 'Speshul' for espousing their house rules and claiming their way is the only way to do it 'right', and thus Edition Warring took on a NEW form.  Personally, if they can make money doing though, who am I to argue with them.  I just wish they would be honest and say what it really is, D&D their way.

DTW.

The early reference I have seen about the left controlled media goes back to the 60s, over 50 years. Apparently the left have taken over the education system, but Conservatives still willingly send their kids there for some reason.

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1041116What truly right-wing views does he have?

Truth be told, there is nothing "left" in the traditional sense about theses SJW jackasses either. Despite what they claim.

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1041116No, Pundit is just being Pundit. This should be in his sub-forum.

His site I guess. Although I do feel that debunking some of these myths about what is really Left wing would get me a warning for being off-topic. I may be wrong. We'll see.

Anyway, talking RPGs is more important that correcting MSM fueled misconceptions.

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1041116Having "socialists" in your party's name doesn't make you socialist. Oxymoron much? Try your contemporary Libertarian: they're happy to be asocial, entitled twats but the second they meet another like them, they suddenly cry foul and want someone in blue to cart them off.

Correct. Nazis put socialists, anarchists and communists in concentration camps along with jews, gays and the disabled.

c.f. putting Democratic Peoples Republic in your nation's name.

These arguments are intellectually lazy, pointless, and among the most destructive things happening in public forums. Basically everything said in the OP amounts to either an ad hominem argument, an absurd straw man constructed by cherry picking from among the wild eyed rants that are sprinkled across the internet, or self-pitying catastrophizing. The 'anti-rightist' version would be to pull a crazed quotation from an Alex Jones show transcript, declare that everyone who has voted for a republican politician in the last 40 years agrees with it, and then collapse on your feinting couch, mumbling about the end of the Enlightenment age. It would be ridiculous if it weren't for the fact that this style of debate is increasingly common, and encourages people to either thoughtlessly chime in or thoughtlessly react. As far as I can tell, the only people engaged in this sort of debate who know what they are doing are the guys working at the Russian troll farms who put out a significant fraction of the memes people like to use as kindling.

So, a harsh take. But that's what you get when you start a forum discussion about this sort of nonsense.

Quote from: jeff37923;1041078"Everyone who disagrees with me is a nazi", has been the battle cry of the SJW for awhile now.

Quote from: Brad;1041087So is it bad form if I bring up the fact that Nazis were socialists?

Exactly!

You stand up for free speech and all the snowflakes piss themselves because you had the audacity to care about your freedom. It's the old adage "people scream the loudest at their mirrors".  You Nazis want to publish that thing I don't like? Sensor them! For the good of the party!! *gasp* wait... (that sounds bad...)

Exactly.

Quote from: Krimson;1041120My very first DM was Native. I also played RIFTs and Gamma World with his brother, an Indian who wore an Indian's baseball cap. I've played with nearly every demographic.

Who'd have known that Natives are individual people with individual tastes?  Shocker.  I've known some guys who loved wearing Blackhawks/Braves/Redskins/Indians type gear because they see it as something of a celebration of Native cultures (never mind they were all Coast Salish so very different culture from the likely inspirations of the above mentioned).  I've also known some who are the opposite.

Quote from: KingCheops;1041150Who'd have known that Natives are individual people with individual tastes?  Shocker.  I've known some guys who loved wearing Blackhawks/Braves/Redskins/Indians type gear because they see it as something of a celebration of Native cultures (never mind they were all Coast Salish so very different culture from the likely inspirations of the above mentioned).  I've also known some who are the opposite.

If I were to hang out with him, I'd get one of those Caucasians shirts and we could walk around watching heads asplode.

Quote from: Brad;1041087So is it bad form if I bring up the fact that Nazis were socialists?

Which is about as true as DPRK being either "democratic" or a "people's republic". Despite both of those being part of its name;).

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1041089Go for it. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims) :rolleyes: Mexico is a long way from Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties_of_the_Soviet_Union) so you have little to fear.

Quote from: Krimson;1041101North Korea is also a Democratic Republic and the States are "United". :D

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1041116Having "socialists" in your party's name doesn't make you socialist. Oxymoron much? Try your contemporary Libertarian: they're happy to be asocial, entitled twats but the second they meet another like them, they suddenly cry foul and want someone in blue to cart them off.

Quote from: AsenRG;1041187Which is about as true as DPRK being either "democratic" or a "people's republic". Despite both of those being part of its name;).

(https://i.imgur.com/jiYTAZE.gif)

Quote from: Krimson;1041118Libertarians are great. They think taxes are a crime, but for some reason expect maintained roads and clean drinking water. We have those types here, who complain about the existence of city workers, and then complain that two feet of snow isn't instantly removed from the roads.

Libertarian is outsider enough that there isn't a solidly known definition. But... a bunch of anarchists claim to be Libertarian because it makes them sound less crazy. (And not associated with late 19th & early 20th century terrorism.)

It isn't easy to talk rationally to libertarians about their goals because there are no examples, past or present, of meaningfully large, modern societies that could be called libertarian, so all you really get to do is argue about what features of non-libertarian societies they hate the most.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1041217It isn't easy to talk rationally to libertarians about their goals because there are no examples, past or present, of meaningfully large, modern societies that could be called libertarian, so all you really get to do is argue about what features of non-libertarian societies they hate the most.

The closest in recent times was probably Hong Kong before China took it back. (While they've left it alone far more than expected - they've slowly been meddling more & more.)

But that's still better than Communists - who have dozens of recent examples - all of which failed horribly - they just keep talking about the implementation being wrong.

Quote from: S'mon;1041067I think the sjws count most libertarian types as alt right, so that includes Pundit and Macris. I would be surprised if they counted avowed lefties as alt right but you never know with these creatures.

I can think of one case actually - the murderous racialist Varg Vikernes creator of Myfarog rpg is connected to the actual alt right.

He's a piece of shit neo-nazi, and so you could certainly call him 'alt-right', but (gladly)  he hasn't made anything that counts as OSR.

Quote from: JeremyR;1041070The problem is that alt-right doesn't really have any meaning anymore. Originally it was for Breitbart.com Roger Stone and Milo sort of conservatism, but then got latched onto by Richard Spencer and neo-Nazi types, at which it spread to include to anyone who didn't vehemently denounce Trump with every waking breath, as it's a way to imply that person is racist/a Nazi.

It's like "neo-conservative". Originally it had a very specific meaning, but grew to mean anyone that was either Jewish or hawkish (or both) and was considered a way to attack someone without seeming to be an Anti-Semite.

Neo-con still means something very specific, though these days they're pretty much interchangeable with the never-trump movement. No one used them as a secret code for 'Jew' except anti-Semites.

No one on the Right describes themselves as "alt-right" anymore except the racialist Ethno-nationalists. So in a sense the definition has become very clear.

Quote from: TJS;1041074Dude.  You have a forum on your gaming site which you use to push your right wing political views.

It's absolute hypocrisy for you to claim other people are bringing politics into gaming when you're posting political screeds under the name "the RPGpundit.  Whatever their faults may be, you share them.

I'm not pretending that I'm apolitical. I'm not posting secret rants on Reddit and then declaring I'm quitting my blog forever because of other people's bad politics.

Quote from: Chris24601;1041106Call it failing then... because it ALWAYS fails. The only question is how much damage it does before it does.

In the US it's getting pushback from both the people who elected Trump and the up and coming generation that is more conservative than we've seen in decades. The latest polling and registration trends suggest the touted "Blue Wave" will be a ripple at best and could even be a Tidy Bowl flush instead. If the US continues the reverse course it'll get a couple of decades of prosperity before the control-left can reorganize and try again (they'll always try again).

By contrast Venezuala and the EU are probably going to collapse completely into failed states before the elites lose their socialist death grip on them. If they're lucky they'll end up with a military junta led by a local rebel leader. The alternative is a succession of Globalist/UN backed puppets who will keep the exploitation going until it turns into another North Korea (ie. kept from total collapse only to the extent it benefits the outside power) or, for the EU, a Caliphate and genocide of the native populations.

Socialism always fails because it's underlying principles don't align with reality and reality always wins in the long run. The same will hold true in the RPG hobby. The Control-Left will only hold power in the companies they do to the extent someone other than paying customers are willing to subsidize that control. So long as the market remains free the hobby will likely follow the US model (ie. pushback and recovery) and the big dogs will either follow the course or stop being the big dogs.

Let's keep this discussion focused only on the RPG hobby, please.

Quote from: Krimson;1041118Libertarians are great. They think taxes are a crime, but for some reason expect maintained roads and clean drinking water. We have those types here, who complain about the existence of city workers, and then complain that two feet of snow isn't instantly removed from the roads.

Let's try to keep this to the gaming hobby, please.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1041207Libertarian is outsider enough that there isn't a solidly known definition. But... a bunch of anarchists claim to be Libertarian because it makes them sound less crazy. (And not associated with late 19th & early 20th century terrorism.)

Please stick to talking only within the subject of the RPG hobby.

I'm certain that those that constantly take offence, to the degree illustrated by the blogger in question, have actual measurable "different brain function" (if someone would bother to measure it). There is something wrong with them, and they can only be quarantined, not reasoned with. The test is that they reject any attempts at dialogue. They will recoil like someone who stuck their hand on the hot-plate, and are incapable of anything else.

Why do so many seem pissed at Zak these days?

Lack of a common enemy has finally made them realize I don't like trolls _even when they're on Team OSR_ .

Zak, tell us about what you're working on!

What is Demon City?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1041121I just wish they would be honest and say what it really is, D&D their way.

Many OSR members are really clear about that. It's been a major point for me, long before the OSR. My OD&D isn't RAW and exists as an amalgam of TSR stuff and houserules, and when S&W:WB came out, it was surprisingly close to what I'd been running for years.

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1041128TAlthough I do feel that debunking some of these myths about what is really Left wing would get me a warning for being off-topic.

Please start a thread about that in Pundy's forum!

Quote from: Larsdangly;1041141As far as I can tell, the only people engaged in this sort of debate who know what they are doing are the guys working at the Russian troll farms who put out a significant fraction of the memes people like to use as kindling.

The Russians!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Quote from: trechriron;1041148You stand up for free speech and all the snowflakes piss themselves because you had the audacity to care about your freedom.

Free speech must be defended from moral authoritarians, whether they come from the Right or the Left.

It's why ALL of us (regardless of ideology) must band together to stand up for free speech.

We don't ever need to agree on anything....except for our right to disagree.

Part of me watches these antics and hopes that some of the OSR design thieves get caught in the crossfire.

As for the current fingerpointing spree. I just have to ask... So? Does it matter? This is just one in an ongoing string of SJWs turning on eachother and everyone else and still trying to control the various communities they have infested like a disease. And tomorrow it will be some new, but oddly same old, outrage, with a fresh coat of hate and bigotry, as they run out of victems to burn at the stake or old ones to reskin as the new new newest evil of evils.

If RPG companies target players that call everyone Nazis as buyers, I won't buy their games. I'm not interested in what ANTIFA plays.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1041254Please start a thread about that in Pundy's forum!

I think I'll keep my politics to my politics forums and enjoy discussing RPGs here. Besides, how long do you think a thread like that would last?

Quote from: Spinachcat;1041254Free speech must be defended from moral authoritarians, whether they come from the Right or the Left.

It's why ALL of us (regardless of ideology) must band together to stand up for free speech.

I wholeheartedly agree. But unless all of us commit to that, we will continue to have censorship of one form or another.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1041276If RPG companies target players that call everyone Nazis as buyers, I won't buy their games. I'm not interested in what ANTIFA plays.

I don't care about the politics of the people who write games and I don't want to see it included in the game either.

I am only interested in the quality of the design of the game or module and its value for money.

Admins and Pundit,

Shouldn't this thread be in a different section?

Seems way too political for the RPG section of the forum.

- Ed C.

That train is never late.:rolleyes:LOL

Quote from: Koltar;1041284Admins and Pundit,

Shouldn't this thread be in a different section?

Seems way too political for the RPG section of the forum.

- Ed C.

Oh don't worry. The thread will be locked soon enough. :D It's a predictable pattern.

So do these SJW types in the OSR not use Lovecraft or Howard as inspiration for their games?  Or are most OSR games at enough degrees of separation that these no longer count as inspirations?  Considering the content or these stories I'm surprised anyone into the thought control type leftism would be interested in "old school" gaming.

Quote from: KingCheops;1041307So do these SJW types in the OSR not use Lovecraft or Howard as inspiration for their games?  Or are most OSR games at enough degrees of separation that these no longer count as inspirations?  Considering the content or these stories I'm surprised anyone into the thought control type leftism would be interested in "old school" gaming.

Michael Moorcock still exists. :)

Quote from: Brad;1041087So is it bad form if I bring up the fact that Nazis were socialists?

It's much more complex than that. The original party was socialist is many ways (worker's rights, etc.). That's how it got its name, after all. However, once Hitler took control of the party in the early 1920s it moved away from this position while still giving lip service to it (as it got votes). When Hitler became chancellor in 1933 some in the party (mainly the Strasserists) tried to push for the socialist reforms they thought the party was for and Hitler stepped on them. The socialists in the Nazi party found themselves removed from what few positions of power in the party they had and in the case of some of the leaders of the socialist faction in the party, removed from the living during the Night of Long Knives in 1934. So while the Nazi party that ran for power during the 20s and early 30s tried to appear somewhat socialist to attract votes, the Nazi party that governed Germany from 1933 to 1945 about as socialist as it was democratic -- in that it gave lip service to both while actually being neither.

Seems to me that if anyone's looking for (sloppy but abundant) signs that the OSR were full of political right-wing-wacko-seeming (to non-right-wing people), some of the recent threads on this forum might seem to strongly suggest that (without even venturing into the political sub-forums).

So we have a gamer complaining that the gaming hobby is being overrun by his political enemies and they are destroying the hobby?

Seems to me that Pundit is just mad that Gus is stealing his shtick.

Everyone in this thread needs to calm the fuck down.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1041254Zak, tell us about what you're working on!

What is Demon City?

A fine question, Cat:

Demon City is a horror RPG. It uses tarot cards instead of dice and is a completely new system based on OSR / DIY D&D principles. Having high scores and the big guns matters a little, having advantages and better tactics matters a lot.

I've been working on it for over a year, it's almost done and a lot of it comes from ideas I had working with bigger companies that were too Out There for them.

Murder, corruption, death, whiskey, hate, night, darkness, noise, summoning, possession, car chases, claws, disorder, firearms, glass shattering, bathtubs filled with blood, devoured corpses, tentacles, neon, broken men, fear.

It is going to look like this:

http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2018/05/love.html?zx=be2d9adf06119c14

and this:

http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2018/02/demon-city-preview-with-sexy-sexy.html

(some of the spreads may contain old rules)

Fights work like this:

http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2018/05/demon-city-combat-using-tarot-cards.html

The experience mechanic is developed out of Jeff Rients' Carousing rules. Yknow how detectives are always at the bar between (or during) cases? Well I built the experience and level-up system around that (early draft):

http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2017/03/downtime-in-demon-city.html

All the Demon City posts are here:

http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/search/label/Demon%20City

Support the Patreon to help get it finished here:

https://www.patreon.com/DemonCity

I'm starting to have a hard time separating politics from gaming, when talking about developers.  It's more than a little irritating at this point.  And it's saddening.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1041254Zak, tell us about what you're working on!

What is Demon City?

New horror RPG with all new rules but based on old-school principles. Tarot cards instead of dice. Almost done. 400 Pages--mostly ideas and bonus tables and stuff. More details here:

http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2017/03/demon-city.html

Donate to the Patreon if you're into it.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1041329Everyone in this thread needs to calm the fuck down.

Psssh. This is milquetoast so far.

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1041282I think I'll keep my politics to my politics forums and enjoy discussing RPGs here. Besides, how long do you think a thread like that would last?

Who knows? It's always interesting hearing people's thoughts and definitions.

Quote from: Omega;1041260Part of me watches these antics and hopes that some of the OSR design thieves get caught in the crossfire.

What do you mean "OSR design thieves"?

Personally, I'd rather be an OSR design assassin/magic-user. AD&D half-elves 4tehwin!

Quote from: KingCheops;1041307So do these SJW types in the OSR not use Lovecraft or Howard as inspiration for their games?  Or are most OSR games at enough degrees of separation that these no longer count as inspirations?  Considering the content or these stories I'm surprised anyone into the thought control type leftism would be interested in "old school" gaming.

Very good question.

However, the SJWs have this strange "It's okay to like problematic things" if they agree among themselves. Of course, I am sure that "rule" will go out the window as they continue to constrict their community with further purity tests.

The next "thought purge" could very well be against any fans of HPL and REH.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1041340I'm starting to have a hard time separating politics from gaming, when talking about developers.  It's more than a little irritating at this point.  And it's saddening.

Just remember that Online Bullshit =/= Offline Gaming.

The worthless fucks might want to control the hobby, but they can't do shit at your table. They even may eventually control all of "the big titles" in the hobby and every hardcover will drip with their idiocy. But so what? There is a non-stop gusher of games being produced via PDF/POD and Kickstarter and they will never control that.

At absolute worst in the future, you will play previously published RPGs (there are hundreds) and new stuff from small publishers (there are thousands) and the human garbage can't ever do shit about that.

Quote from: Zak S;1041341New horror RPG with all new rules but based on old-school principles. Tarot cards instead of dice. Almost done.

Very cool. Crimson Cutlass (an old pirate RPG mostly sold by the authors in SoCal) used the Tarot (+D8s) and it worked great. Do you have any videos of gameplay?

Also, why Patreon instead of Kickstarter? Or does that happen next?

Quote from: RandallS;1041311It's much more complex than that. The original party was socialist is many ways (worker's rights, etc.). That's how it got its name, after all. However, once Hitler took control of the party in the early 1920s it moved away from this position while still giving lip service to it (as it got votes). When Hitler became chancellor in 1933 some in the party (mainly the Strasserists) tried to push for the socialist reforms they thought the party was for and Hitler stepped on them. The socialists in the Nazi party found themselves removed from what few positions of power in the party they had and in the case of some of the leaders of the socialist faction in the party, removed from the living during the Night of Long Knives in 1934. So while the Nazi party that ran for power during the 20s and early 30s tried to appear somewhat socialist to attract votes, the Nazi party that governed Germany from 1933 to 1945 about as socialist as it was democratic -- in that it gave lip service to both while actually being neither.

Stop posting stuff that isn't directly related to the RPG hobby. This is a WARNING.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1041366Very cool. Crimson Cutlass (an old pirate RPG mostly sold by the authors in SoCal) used the Tarot (+D8s) and it worked great. Do you have any videos of gameplay?

Yes, will eventually be uploaded, but here's a very short one:

http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2018/05/demon-city-combat-using-tarot-cards.html

The idea is only your highest card matters.

The different specific cards have a number of side effects attached to the experience mechanic.
 

QuoteAlso, why Patreon instead of Kickstarter? Or does that happen next?

Patreon is basically just people being nice (which has worked out very well for a year). Kickstarter requires delivering things. Publisher (Mike Evans who did Hubris) is currently working out the print plan.

It will look like this:

http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2018/05/love.html

and this:

http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2018/02/demon-city-preview-with-sexy-sexy.html

Quote from: Mistwell;1041236Why do so many seem pissed at Zak these days?

Quote from: Zak S;1041251Lack of a common enemy has finally made them realize I don't like trolls _even when they're on Team OSR_ .

That and you turned out to be exactly the kind of cunt people suspected you were when you got caught impersonating someone else.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1041392That and you turned out to be exactly the kind of cunt people suspected you were when you got caught impersonating someone else.

This is the last place I'd hear someone repeat an RPGnet conspiracy theory.

QuoteAlso, tell me about how tarot cards work in Demon City!

...but thanks for your question about Demon City!

As we've already said, before each adventure, after the Host has decided what the ultimate creature or creatures will be lurking behind the events in the day's adventure, the Host creates the Horror's Deck. The Horror's Deck should be used by the Host in every session until the Horror that formed that particular deck is defeated. Then a new one is created for the next session.

The Horror's Deck should include:

-A few (typically 1-4) cards specifically associated with the major horrors that will ultimately feature in the course of the adventure--even if the Horror itself may not appear in this session. For example, if the adventure includes a werewolf, the deck would likely include The Moon (18) and possibly Strength (8). The associations of cards with specific horrors is detailed in the Horrors section.

-A few cards associated with specific places or NPCs that are important in the adventure. For example, if a rich woman features prominently in the adventure, the Queen of Pentacles would appear in The Horror's Deck, if an abandoned factory was an important location, an 8 of Cups might be in the deck. The connections of cards with specific ideas, kinds of people and kinds of places are noted on the endpapers of this book.

-Enough other cards that the deck contains at least one card worth every number one through ten. So: One card worth One (any of the four Aces--Wands, Cups, Swords, or Pentacles, or the Magician--the card marked 1 at the top), a single card worth two (two of Wands, Cups, etc or the High Priestess, the card marked 2 at the top), a single card worth 3 (3 of Wands, Cups, etc or The Empress--the card marked 3) etc all the way up through ten--so, ten cards allowing a random throw of 1-10, plus some extras. These other cards should be chosen with an eye to making them as consonant with the ideas you want to include in the adventure as possible--if indulgence, passion and drunkenness feature heavily, feature the suit of Cups prominently, if violence and pain, then feature Swords, if money and power are important, use Pentacles, if magic or creativity--Wands. Again, these meanings are detailed in the Host's section. Note "court" cards--Pages, Knights, Queens and Kings--are worth 10.

-The Horror's Deck won't inclde the current Significator Cards of any PC present.


The Players' Deck:

... is made from most of the cards left over after making The Horror's Deck. As noted above, it should include The Fool unless the Host has decided to put it in the Horror's Deck, as well as 3 number cards of each value 1-10. The only other cards in the Players' Deck should be Significator Cards--discussed in a second.

-Even if any of the PC's Significator Cards are worth 1-10, the Players' Deck must still include 3 of each value in addition to these cards.

When used in resolving action, The Horror's Deck has a few kinks:

-The Horror's Deck will often be unbalanced--a deck including the Wheel of Fortune and the Knight of Swords has at least two tens in it. This is fine--sometimes horrors have an advantage, that's why they're horrors.

-The deck may also include cards worth more than 10. These powerful cards are worth face value and count as Critical Successes unless someone throws a higher card.

These cards represents something especally horrific and immediate happening. A blunt and immediate "sting" showing the power of the menace at hand.

Significator Cards:

-When a major challenge is defeated, shuffle the Horror's Deck and fan it out face down and have each player choose a card. This is their PC's Significator Card (see below).

-It is possible to meaningfully defeat a hostile NPC without combat (for example, discovering evidence of their guilt and making it public) or meaningfully defeat a foe that isn't a creature as such (like, say, a complex trap). In both cases, if the achievement is significant, the group should be eligible for a Significator at this point.

-If any of the PCs have a Significator when the deck is fanned out, they lose the old one and it is replaced with the new one. The Players' Deck must be remade.

-The player notes the new Significator Card on their character sheet and the new Significator Card will be placed in the Players' Deck next time they play.

-Each Significator has three functions...

+First, as noted above, drawing your PC's own current Significator counts as a Critical Success if that card also would normally win the contest it's being drawn for.

+Second, a specific PC reward associated with each card is listed on the endpapers. Once they gain a given Significator, players do not have to wait to draw this card during a throw to use the reward--they can use the reward at any time when the situation described in the reward ("Gain a throw vs Calm loss at the sight of violence or death") could happen, or, if a specific situation is not described, at any other time it would physically be possible for that thing to occur, including Downtime (see below). Once used this way, however, it's gone. The connection between PC and Significator Card is no more, the card is crossed off the character sheet, and it's removed from the Players' Deck. "Burning" a Significator takes away a PCs chance of Critical Success until the next major menace is defeated, but is often worth it since it allows a PC to seize control of a situation in the moment. And the card will be changed out after the next menace is overcome anyway.

+Third, the Significator is, in occult terms, an actal tarot card that actually was chosen randomly on behalf of the PC. Outside of any mechanical restrictions, The Significators traditional divinatory meanings can guide the player in how they're going to play their PC, and can guide the Host in what kind of situations they might derive for them. The traditional meanings are easy to find online.

-When it's time to switching cards, an unusued held card is gone--a PC cannot use the reward from the old card immediately just to hog both benefits.

-The Significator Cards represent chance favoring a PC, not supernatural intervention--the card cannot make something otherwise physically impossible in the game world possible.

-The Host should note down who got what Significator.


Other Uses Of the Tarot Deck:

The Host can use the cards in many other ways:

-Some foes will have specific attacks or effects that activate when a given card or combination is thrown, noted in the Horrors section.

-Cards can be used to generate random NPCs and locations during the adventure, like any other random table. Using cards from the Horror's Deck ensures a range of results in line with the ideas the Host wants to emphasize in that adventure--like a carefully built Random Encounter Table in a dungeon game that echoes the themes of that dungeon.

-The Host can create specific events that will be triggered when a given card or combination appears in a given situation.

-Supernatural abilities allowing precognition or divination can allow a character to read the Horror's Deck to gain insight into what is to come--depending on the precise method used, this will allow a general reading (what the cards broadly can imply) or a specific one (what the cards signify in this particular adventure) or both.

Quote from: Zak S;1041413This is the last place I'd hear someone repeat an RPGnet conspiracy theory.

When I first heard about RPGPundit (I had encountered him previously during the DWAITAS playtest, but had no idea who he was), it was because of things people accused him of saying. I wanted to see this bad stuff, so I read everything he posted on G+ as well as his blog, which eventually why I ended up here. Though he does venture into Cloud Cuckooland from time to time, I can honestly say that I never found anything bigoted against a particular group. If I had, I would not be here.

As for the OSR being usurped by the Alt-Right, some names would be nice. I mean, the number of OSR content creators out there is small enough to fit on an 8-1/2" x 11" sheet of paper. If there is a list of suspects, I would go through it and find out if there is any truth to the allegations. I can read really really fast, especially when reading nonfiction where pacing your mental voice for the sake of tone isn't really needed. Very handy for news articles. If someone is accused of something, and there is truth to it, I will find it. Especially when I have a Google algorithm that wants to help while it struggles to figure out what kind of ads to send me. But honestly, I'm not really interested in doing that. You don't get wasted time back, and I'd rather be reading about history or science with that time, or writing games I will never run or publish in my coil notebook because I like experimenting with dice probabilities and have a fondness for bell curves.

Certainly there are many in the OSR who are Conservative, but Conservative =/= Nazi. Sometimes I vote for them. It depends on the person. I like to meet the candidates and talk to them myself. I also happen to live in the most Conservative neighbourhood in the country. Jason Kenney's MLA office is in the building where I have worked for the last 10 years (as of this month). Stephen Harper's MP office was in the same building. You can't get more Conservative than Calgary Heritage/Calgary Lougheed. My mom is Conservative, and very very well educated, having worked 35 years for Service Canada. If a left winger gave her a hard time, I'd politely tell them to fuck off. By oldest friend is Conservative. I bought him the core 5e books because he has fallen on hard times, whereas I get paid quite nicely. People are people, and having a face to face discussion with someone is nothing at all like the internet, where everyone wants to dehumanize the people they don't like. So as for the OSR, just because you disagree with a person's political opinion, does not mean that person is now some sort of monster. I mean sure, they could be some sort of monster, but that was probably not brought about by politics unless the person is particularly weak minded or gullible. And I am willing to bet a good chunk of the population would fail a Turing Test, which is actually a neat little argument to support the potential existence of Strong AI.  :D

Bottom line. I think the Alt-Right OSR is fabricated bullshit.

Quote from: Krimson;1041419Bottom line. I think the Alt-Right OSR is fabricated bullshit.

Yes, it is.

To the SJWs, anything that is not full-bore SJW is Alt-Right. Since the OSR refuses to cater to the SJWs in toto and ad infinitum, the SJWs therefore declare that the OSR is Alt-Right. Disagree with them? They declare that you are Alt-Right.*

All of which is, as you correctly identified, fabricated bullshit.

*And the SJW purity spiral that is currently underway (even in RPGs, as per the SPF case) means that even this morning's SJW in good standing is this afternoon's target to be purged.

You can call bullshit on  the OSR being Alt-Right (correctly) but I bet my membership here I couldn't demonstrate that the SJW have nothing to do with traditional left wing politics without getting a warning.

Such is the way of the interwebs.

Some trains are never ever late.

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1041469You can call bullshit on  the OSR being Alt-Right (correctly) but I bet my membership here I couldn't demonstrate that the SJW have nothing to do with traditional left wing politics without getting a warning.

  Well, what are you calling 'traditional left wing politics'? They're definitely not inclined to classical liberalism, and while sympathetic to socialism and buying into certain elements of Marxist thought (primarily the dialectic, although transferred from 'capital-labor' to 'privileged-subaltern' or the like--note that my familiarity with Marx is very limited), they are not at all concerned with the lower class except as it intersects with other marginalized groups.

   I would be inclined to call them the offspring of the 60s radicals and counterculture, though.

Quote from: Koltar;1041284Admins and Pundit,

Shouldn't this thread be in a different section?

Seems way too political for the RPG section of the forum.

- Ed C.

The ongoing blowup is part of the problem of the SJW mindset, agendas and screeds spilling over into the gaming, and other media, community more and more.

And theres been a few points where you just cant remove the political from the RPG because someone just had to stick something in there and then crow about how "inclusive" they are. Or someone else making some crackheaded claims about some book being "racist" or whatever. Just look at a few of the recent threads here or in Pundits section where at one point or another some village idiot claims that forcing inclusivity and all that on players and DMs is just and right and good for the gaming community.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1041340I'm starting to have a hard time separating politics from gaming, when talking about developers.  It's more than a little irritating at this point.  And it's saddening.

Same in board gaming and art. And I know a-lot of artists and some of the stuff going on in the background is more than irritating and saddening. Moreso because pandering to these agendas is gradually, and sometimes not so gradually, killing various designers and/or their games or product. Or at the very least driving off customers.

Politics diffuses into gaming for the same reason politics diffuses into music:  they are creative media people use to interact and express themselves. This is more noticeable now than ~10 years ago because we are in cultural moment not unlike the mid 60's or early 80's, when there is an unusually high level of conflict and debate. You don't have to game with people who are left of your politics, just like you didn't have to listen to The Clash in the early 80's. But they are still there and are still going to say what they want to say.

And I've seen more than a few threads on RPGnet roughly titled, "Who can I support?" because literally nothing in the industry meets their "moral" standard and recommendations given on that thread are generally ultra rules light games that one person can write, draw, and publish because anything complicated enough to require multiple people exponentially increases the chance that one of those people has an opinion you don't and is therefore "Alt-right"

Quote from: Larsdangly;1041478you didn't have to listen to The Clash in the early 80's.

I think if the extreme left wing ideology stuff was available as a module, nobody would be complaining. The problem is when it infects everything to the core and sees even moderate deviation as 'literally Hitler.' You can see it in the Disneyfication of the 5th edition, particularly in the artwork. It's the artists I feel sorry for. And to be fair, I'm not against making core books more appropriate for younger audiences. But I'd rather they did it by moving the troublesome cases (like the succubus say) to their own more adult rated modules rather than covering them up in the basic set.

On the plus side, all this real world Orwellian nightmare stuff is great for inspiring some truly horrible societies for me to throw my poor players into.

Quote from: mightybrain;1041498You can see it in the Disneyfication of the 5th edition, particularly in the artwork.

No one plays D&D like Gaston! (https://imgur.com/gallery/mGYnX)

Quote from: Krimson;1041506No one plays D&D like Gaston! (https://imgur.com/gallery/mGYnX)

No one....
Rolls like Gaston,
Plans their builds like Gaston,
Gets the best magic gear in the game like Gaston!

Quote from: mightybrain;1041498I think if the extreme left wing ideology stuff was available as a module, nobody would be complaining. The problem is when it infects everything to the core and sees even moderate deviation as 'literally Hitler.' You can see it in the Disneyfication of the 5th edition, particularly in the artwork. It's the artists I feel sorry for. And to be fair, I'm not against making core books more appropriate for younger audiences. But I'd rather they did it by moving the troublesome cases (like the succubus say) to their own more adult rated modules rather than covering them up in the basic set.

On the plus side, all this real world Orwellian nightmare stuff is great for inspiring some truly horrible societies for me to throw my poor players into.

What's the problem with 5E's art? I'm not picking up on much in the way of a political subtext.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1041514What's the problem with 5E's art? I'm not picking up on much in the way of a political subtext.

The halflings. The halflings are tragic.

Quote from: Krimson;1041506No one plays D&D like Gaston! (https://imgur.com/gallery/mGYnX)

I love the bored expression of the guy fist fighting the werewolf.  "Silver?  I don't need no stinking silver!"

Quote from: Lurtch;1041515The halflings. The halflings are tragic.

Indeed.  I'm not sure what they are, but biologically viable, they are not!  The rest of the art is pretty good, mind you.

You guys are confusing the ell out of me. How are you seeing weirdly drawn hobbits as some sort of political attack launched by the hard left? Either this thread has unravelled into a random discussion of whatever, or there is some sort of very 'meta' reading of fantasy game artwork that I'm not seeing.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1041546You guys are confusing the ell out of me. How are you seeing weirdly drawn hobbits as some sort of political attack launched by the hard left? Either this thread has unravelled into a random discussion of whatever, or there is some sort of very 'meta' reading of fantasy game artwork that I'm not seeing.

If it is a leftist attack, then I am not impressed. Not one bit.

1 post driveby derailed the topic. I don't think anybody is claiming that the bad hobbit art in 5th is some kind of SJW attack.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;10415551 post driveby derailed the topic. I don't think anybody is claiming that the bad hobbit art in 5th is some kind of SJW attack.

Ya gotta give 'im props.  That was one hell of a well-placed shot.  Got us off topic in blow. :D

Quote from: Ratman_tf;10415551 post driveby derailed the topic. I don't think anybody is claiming that the bad hobbit art in 5th is some kind of SJW attack.

Off topic perhaps, but we're talking about gaming again, aren't we?

I think Lurtch's post was glib. Larsdangly was wrestling a straw man.

Quote from: Krimson;1041419... Though he does venture into Cloud Cuckooland from time to time, I can honestly say that I never found anything bigoted against a particular group. If I had, I would not be here.

(I won't bring up immigrants to Europe then.)

Quote from: Krimson;1041419You don't get wasted time back, and I'd rather be reading about history or science with that time, or writing games I will never run or publish in my coil notebook because I like experimenting with dice probabilities and have a fondness for bell curves.

Totally agree.

Quote from: Krimson;1041419Certainly there are many in the OSR who are Conservative, but Conservative =/= Nazi. ...  So as for the OSR, just because you disagree with a person's political opinion, does not mean that person is now some sort of monster.

Of course.

Quote from: Krimson;1041419Bottom line. I think the Alt-Right OSR is fabricated bullshit.

Yes.

Quote from: Omega;1041475The ongoing blowup is part of the problem of the SJW mindset, agendas and screeds spilling over into the gaming, and other media, community more and more.

And theres been a few points where you just cant remove the political from the RPG because someone just had to stick something in there and then crow about how "inclusive" they are. Or someone else making some crackheaded claims about some book being "racist" or whatever. Just look at a few of the recent threads here or in Pundits section where at one point or another some village idiot claims that forcing inclusivity and all that on players and DMs is just and right and good for the gaming community.

Calling out examples where gaming is getting messed up is relevant and interesting.

Many of the reactions here about "SJWs" and leftists though have seemed to me at least as nutty as they claim the people they're complaining about are, and in about the same ways. Recent threads here have been thick with posts aggressively ranting about these terrible SJW people who label people who disagree with them in highly exaggerated and inaccurate ways, and mess with gamers...

Seems to me the points about actual stupid game designs and behavior tend to make an actual relevant point, and the anti-SJW rants actually undermine that point and create a strong impression that there are a bunch of annoying Don Quixote-like anti-SJW crusaders trampling straw SJWs on an OSR site... gee, I wonder why someone might incorrectly think the OSR has an anti-SJW aspect?

Quote from: Larsdangly;1041217It isn't easy to talk rationally to libertarians about their goals because there are no examples, past or present, of meaningfully large, modern societies that could be called libertarian, so all you really get to do is argue about what features of non-libertarian societies they hate the most.

You must not know many actual libertarians. Moving toward goals of looseness, voluntarism and less coercion can be discussed quite easily. That there are no examples does not mean that there could not be.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1041473Well, what are you calling 'traditional left wing politics'? They're definitely not inclined to classical liberalism, and while sympathetic to socialism and buying into certain elements of Marxist thought (primarily the dialectic, although transferred from 'capital-labor' to 'privileged-subaltern' or the like--note that my familiarity with Marx is very limited), they are not at all concerned with the lower class except as it intersects with other marginalized groups.

   I would be inclined to call them the offspring of the 60s radicals and counterculture, though.

Offspring? Well, at least this member of the counterculture was always careful to avoid that.

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1041469You can call bullshit on  the OSR being Alt-Right (correctly) but I bet my membership here I couldn't demonstrate that the SJW have nothing to do with traditional left wing politics without getting a warning.

Pundit doesn't want politics in this thread SO please open a thread in Pundency and talk about this.

That's the proper forum for that discussions and you won't get any warning. BTW, I think its an important discussion for everyone to discuss.

Quote from: Skarg;1041576gee, I wonder why someone might incorrectly think the OSR has an anti-SJW aspect?

Anyone who values freedom, true equality and true inclusivity benefits from an anti-SJW aspect.

At its best, the OSR welcomes ALL and encourages ALL to do their own thing in their own way.

I am a liberal Democrat and I love the OSR a lot.

The claims of the OSR being "Alt-Right" are largely fabricated.

If a registered Democratic liberal and Cowboy like me can love the OSR and see no political agendas dominating it, then I don't see why people are so worked up about it.

I'm not going to accuse anyone of being Alt-Right, but when people on this board seem to get angry at any inclusion, or mention, of LGBT in D&D as some kind of attack on them, it sure as hell doesn't make it feel like this place is as "inclusive" as they all claim to be.

The fact that people think any mention of someone like me, or like my friend group, or like my son, being mentioned as existing is "SJW bullshit" kind of makes it feel pretty oppressive.

I think that "progressives" can go too far sometimes, but I also think that this forum goes the opposite way so far as to try to find boogiemen to defend their hobby from, and that can create a certain impression.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041658I'm not going to accuse anyone of being Alt-Right, but when people on this board seem to get angry at any inclusion, or mention, of LGBT in D&D as some kind of attack on them, it sure as hell doesn't make it feel like this place is as "inclusive" as they all claim to be.

The fact that people think any mention of someone like me, or like my friend group, or like my son, being mentioned as existing is "SJW bullshit" kind of makes it feel pretty oppressive.

I think that "progressives" can go too far sometimes, but I also think that this forum goes the opposite way so far as to try to find boogiemen to defend their hobby from, and that can create a certain impression.

AFAIK we had the one poster express that opinion. Maybe two, I don't recall exactly.
Speaking only for myself, I only care that people are decent. I have no interest in quotas for inclusivities sake.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041658I'm not going to accuse anyone of being Alt-Right, but when people on this board seem to get angry at any inclusion, or mention, of LGBT in D&D as some kind of attack on them, it sure as hell doesn't make it feel like this place is as "inclusive" as they all claim to be.

It may not be a case of Alt-Right so much as an over-inflated sense of self importance. They are not being personally attacked. The just consciously choose to play the victim card in order to get attention.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041658I'm not going to accuse anyone of being Alt-Right, but when people on this board seem to get angry at any inclusion, or mention, of LGBT in D&D as some kind of attack on them, it sure as hell doesn't make it feel like this place is as "inclusive" as they all claim to be.

The fact that people think any mention of someone like me, or like my friend group, or like my son, being mentioned as existing is "SJW bullshit" kind of makes it feel pretty oppressive.

I think that "progressives" can go too far sometimes, but I also think that this forum goes the opposite way so far as to try to find boogiemen to defend their hobby from, and that can create a certain impression.

I think your just so use to those kind of people not being allowed to talk that any mention of those ideas makes it seem like the whole forum supports them and shares their opinion, when really the forum supports their right to talk so we can make fun of them.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1041741I think your just so use to those kind of people not being allowed to talk that any mention of those ideas makes it seem like the whole forum supports them and shares their opinion, when really the forum supports their right to talk so we can make fun of them.

Well put. I doubt there are that many closet-case neo Nazi's who drift through these boards. But it is very rare (I can't remember an instance) for someone on these boards to shriek a left wing point of view or badger people for being right wing. What you do hear a lot of here is gripes about mean 'social justice warriors' and feminists on other sites. It is basically a place where a few vocal people come to bitch about their negative perceptions of left wing politics, as they imagine they are being manifested elsewhere. I haven't noticed much in the way of whinging aimed the other way. So, if you took 'anti-left' as synonymous for 'pro right', and you went hunting for political snark on the threads where it appears, it could feel like this is a right wing site.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1041741I think your just so use to those kind of people not being allowed to talk that any mention of those ideas makes it seem like the whole forum supports them and shares their opinion, when really the forum supports their right to talk so we can make fun of them.

But that is the thing. I see very little making fun of them. Maybe 1 post will point out that they are overreacting.

On the other hand, how often on this board do you see complaints about "SJWs" and feminists on this site?

Quote from: Larsdangly;1041514What's the problem with 5E's art? I'm not picking up on much in the way of a political subtext.

Compare the 5th edition succubus (and incubus) illustration to any other edition of the game. She has been de-fanged, both literally and figuratively. They are still described as the most lascivious creatures in D&D, yet here they are illustrated here so blandly that I doubt many of us would worry if our daughter wanted to go in fancy dress like that. (She would be no less covered up than if she went as Disney princess Ariel, or Jasmine, or Pocahontas.) See also the typically naked dryad, lamia, and satyr who all got the modesty poncho treatment.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1041746Well put. I doubt there are that many closet-case neo Nazi's who drift through these boards. But it is very rare (I can't remember an instance) for someone on these boards to shriek a left wing point of view or badger people for being right wing. What you do hear a lot of here is gripes about mean 'social justice warriors' and feminists on other sites. It is basically a place where a few vocal people come to bitch about their negative perceptions of left wing politics, as they imagine they are being manifested elsewhere. I haven't noticed much in the way of whinging aimed the other way. So, if you took 'anti-left' as synonymous for 'pro right', and you went hunting for political snark on the threads where it appears, it could feel like this is a right wing site.

Let me know when the right start writing politicized articles about D&D  (https://www.google.com/search?ei=8ecSW6_NOsOg0wLy_q7wDw&q=dungeons+and+dragons+sexist&oq=dungeons+and+dragons+sexist&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0.11702.12996.0.13271.6.6.0.0.0.0.112.588.4j2.6.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.6.587...35i39k1j0i20i264k1j0i22i30k1.0.qiGqAq3NIvw) and I'll bitch about them as well.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041658I'm not going to accuse anyone of being Alt-Right, but when people on this board seem to get angry at any inclusion, or mention, of LGBT in D&D as some kind of attack on them, it sure as hell doesn't make it feel like this place is as "inclusive" as they all claim to be.

The fact that people think any mention of someone like me, or like my friend group, or like my son, being mentioned as existing is "SJW bullshit" kind of makes it feel pretty oppressive.

I think that "progressives" can go too far sometimes, but I also think that this forum goes the opposite way so far as to try to find boogiemen to defend their hobby from, and that can create a certain impression.

I'll agree, this place is definitely easy to paint with a Right-Wing brush.  However, that's only partly due to the antics of a couple people here, and the over the top aggressive nature by which the Pundit chooses to deliver even simple points of logic, let alone the craziness he gets into when he gets fired up.  

By and large, here you have people railing against the faux social justice, ie. "Protectorate Racism" of Seattle white people.  If these people weren't also in the habit of [strike]silencing and censoring[/strike] de-platforming people they don't agree with, to the point of wanting to run them out of the industry altogether, then their increasing influence within the industry wouldn't be seen as something to argue against.

Do we have some crazy Right-Wingers here? Yeah.
Do we have some crazy Left-Wingers here? Yeah. (although they tend to leave because ironically, they can't stand to co-exist)
Do we have some dyed-in-the-wool homophobes who think homosexuality is degenerate, a sin, what have you? Sure.
Do we have trolls who like to play "poke the lefty" to see their heads explode? Yep.
We also have the opposites of all of those.
We got people who voted for Trump, Hillary, Stein, Johnson and Bernie on write-ins.
We've got Cis, Trans, Gay, Straight, Bi, and at least one honest-to-god Otherkin.
We've got white-bred Seattle and sweet home Alabama.
We've got Atheists, ex-seminarians, Catholic theologians, and a practicing magician.

The only real thing that unites people here is their love of tabletop gaming and the belief that even if we disagree with someone with the fury of a thousand suns, they have a right to post what we don't like and vice-versa.

Free speech provides the right to criticize as well.  If someone says something that others object to, free speech allows others to point that out.

I'm of the opinion that if the only defense of saying something is that it is literally not illegal to say, then they are probably saying something pretty shitty.

Also, my point was not that the whole forum is crazy right wingers, but that you can't be surprised that people think that a group is whackadoo when incredibly vocal parts of the group regularly say whackadoo bullshit.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041658I'm not going to accuse anyone of being Alt-Right, but when people on this board seem to get angry at any inclusion, or mention, of LGBT in D&D as some kind of attack on them, it sure as hell doesn't make it feel like this place is as "inclusive" as they all claim to be.

The fact that people think any mention of someone like me, or like my friend group, or like my son, being mentioned as existing is "SJW bullshit" kind of makes it feel pretty oppressive.

I think that "progressives" can go too far sometimes, but I also think that this forum goes the opposite way so far as to try to find boogiemen to defend their hobby from, and that can create a certain impression.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041757I'm of the opinion that if the only defense of saying something is that it is literally not illegal to say, then they are probably saying something pretty shitty.

I think being a passive-aggressive twat is a shitty way to post.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1041759I think being a passive-aggressive twat is a shitty way to post.

That shit isn't passive aggressive. That is straight up aggressive. There are a very vocal group of assholes stuck in the fucking stone-age. I'm stating it straight out. If you are one of the people who get up in arms about LGBT characters appearing in adventures, or mention of a possible fluid gender identity for characters, then you are also part of that group of assholes.

It would be passive aggressive to insinuate it, but I'm not insinuating it. I'm saying if that shit pisses you off and you go whine on forums about it, you are a bigot and a douchebag.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041761That shit isn't passive aggressive. That is straight up aggressive. There are a very vocal group of assholes stuck in the fucking stone-age. I'm stating it straight out. If you are one of the people who get up in arms about LGBT characters appearing in adventures, or mention of a possible fluid gender identity for characters, then you are also part of that group of assholes.

It would be passive aggressive to insinuate it, but I'm not insinuating it. I'm saying if that shit pisses you off and you go whine on forums about it, you are a bigot and a douchebag.

Wanting to ban speech is very Stalin-esque of you...

Quote from: CRKrueger;1041753...and a practicing magician.

Does he do parties?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1041763Wanting to ban speech is very Stalin-esque of you...

Where did I say I wanted to ban any speech? I said two things: One you can't be surprised that someone thinks a group is filled with crazy people when there are very vocal crazy people in it and two if you whine on forums about LGBT representation existing in games you are a piece of shit.

Pieces of shit can say whatever they want, but that doesn't stop them from being pieces of shit, and it doesn't stop me from calling them a piece of shit.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1041756Free speech provides the right to criticize as well.  If someone says something that others object to, free speech allows others to point that out.

Absolutely!!

The whole point of a free speech forum is for everyone to openly disagree without fear of banning.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041748But that is the thing. I see very little making fun of them. Maybe 1 post will point out that they are overreacting.

You are 100,000% welcome to join any thread and make fun of anyone or anything. GO FOR IT!!

AND BRING YOUR FRIENDS!!!

Use your freedom of speech...while you still have any because the people you support will come at you too. You may think you're an upstanding doubleplusgoodthinker, but as the lunacy continues to spiral, you might find yourself dancing to keep up with the orthodoxy, and then you may even say something declared impure.

Of course, you'll blow this off, but its not written for you. I'm writing to the lurkers. You lurkers should note how many people being declared guilty of thought crime were actually people considered themselves "liberal" just a decade ago (or less).

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041748On the other hand, how often on this board do you see complaints about "SJWs" and feminists on this site?

Unfortunately, modern feminism =/= gender equality. You'd be hard pressed to find any posters who are against equal legal rights for women.

As for SJWs, the issue is their stance against free expression and their demand to politicize and demonize. They aren't liberals. They're Marxists. Real liberals support free speech, even the worst speech by the worst people. That's why the ACLU defended the rights of NeoNazis to march through a Jewish neighborhood. The ACLU didn't support the Nazis, but they know you can't have free speech without defense of the rights of the most worthless scumbags to make their vile idiot noise.  
 
And that's why I invite all SJWs to come and post freely.

Quote from: Skarg;1041576Many of the reactions here about "SJWs" and leftists though have seemed to me at least as nutty as they claim the people they're complaining about are, and in about the same ways.

Ya THINK?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041767Where did I say I wanted to ban any speech? I said two things: One you can't be surprised that someone thinks a group is filled with crazy people when there are very vocal crazy people in it and two if you whine on forums about LGBT representation existing in games you are a piece of shit.

I'll gladly take the title "piece of shit" from you on that. Personally, I don't care if there are LGBT characters in RPGs. I do mind the idea of "representation", because it dehumanizes people into a monolithic group identity.
Fuck that.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1041776I'll gladly take the title "piece of shit" from you on that. Personally, I don't care if there are LGBT characters in RPGs. I do mind the idea of "representation", because it dehumanizes people into a monolithic group identity.
Fuck that.

Representation is literally just them existing in the worlds and shown to exist in adventures/lore.

You are literally saying "I don't care if there is LGBT representation in RPGs but fuck LGBT representation in RPGs."

Quote from: Skarg;1041576Many of the reactions here about "SJWs" and leftists though have seemed to me at least as nutty as they claim the people they're complaining about are, and in about the same ways. Recent threads here have been thick with posts aggressively ranting about these terrible SJW people who label people who disagree with them in highly exaggerated and inaccurate ways, and mess with gamers...

Recent? I had been away from this board for like 3 years and I'm not surprised to see it hasn't changed.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041777Representation is literally just them existing in the worlds and shown to exist in adventures/lore.

You are literally saying "I don't care if there is LGBT representation in RPGs but fuck LGBT representation in RPGs."

No, I literally did not say that. You added the word representation in an attempt to put words in my mouth, and I do not appreciate it.

I am speaking of the modern activist version of "representation", which is predicated on identity politics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_politics).

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1041787No, I literally did not say that. You added the word representation in an attempt to put words in my mouth, and I do not appreciate it.

I am speaking of the modern activist version of "representation", which is predicated on identity politics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_politics).

That's what they do.  They try and move goal posts and accuse you of a thought crime to shut down the conversation.  It's just bullying.

The real 'bigots' are the ones who think that there are more races than the Human race.  And frankly why do they need to get into our Elf-Games.  If you want LGBTQLMNOP+++*%6 in your games, sure!  Go for it.  But that's your game.  Mine will be different.

Representation is LITERALLY THEM EXISTING IN THE WORK. That is all it means.

If you want to invent some boogieman about how horrible it is people think its nice to see people that share their gender/sexuality/ethnicity represented in media so that you can throw a hissy fit, go ahead, but you are being a moron.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041790Representation is LITERALLY THEM EXISTING IN THE WORK. That is all it means.

If you want to invent some boogieman about how horrible it is people think its nice to see people that share their gender/sexuality/ethnicity represented in media so that you can throw a hissy fit, go ahead, but you are being a moron.

Why is this such a big thing for you?  You're flipping out over make-believe.  This isn't grade school, anymore.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1041789That's what they do.  They try and move goal posts and accuse you of a thought crime to shut down the conversation.  It's just bullying.

The real 'bigots' are the ones who think that there are more races than the Human race.  And frankly why do they need to get into our Elf-Games.  If you want LGBTQLMNOP+++*%6 in your games, sure!  Go for it.  But that's your game.  Mine will be different.

I'm going to guess you are one of those types that says shit like "I'm colorblind!" and think it is a good thing, huh?

It must be hard to have someone actually question your beliefs and call you out on them. Must be why you think of anyone who does that as a bully.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1041791Why is this such a big thing for you?  You're flipping out over make-believe.  This isn't grade school, anymore.

Don't mistake all caps as yelling when I'm using it for emphasis. I'm just pointing out the stupidity of what he is saying. And if it isn't grade school why are you whining about bullies like a 10 year old?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041761That shit isn't passive aggressive. That is straight up aggressive. There are a very vocal group of assholes stuck in the fucking stone-age. I'm stating it straight out. If you are one of the people who get up in arms about LGBT characters appearing in adventures, or mention of a possible fluid gender identity for characters, then you are also part of that group of assholes.

It would be passive aggressive to insinuate it, but I'm not insinuating it. I'm saying if that shit pisses you off and you go whine on forums about it, you are a bigot and a douchebag.

If you were "aggressive" you wouldn't have started your vomit spew with "I'm not going to accuse anyone of being Alt-Right, but...."

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1041776I'll gladly take the title "piece of shit" from you on that. Personally, I don't care if there are LGBT characters in RPGs. I do mind the idea of "representation", because it dehumanizes people into a monolithic group identity.
Fuck that.

Come on, Emperor Norton just wants his tickets to the Oppression Olympics to have value.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1041795If you were "aggressive" you wouldn't have started your vomit spew with "I'm not going to accuse anyone of being Alt-Right, but...."

Because I wasn't accusing them of being alt-right. I was accusing a certain vocal section of the forum of being bigots. And I actually acknowledge that there is a difference, so as I was saying "I'm not going to accuse someone of being Alt-Right" because that is literally not what I'm doing.

While alt-right assholes are in fact bigots, and I could see how some people confuse all bigots as alt-right assholes, not all bigots are alt-right.

As far as I know, the bigots on this forum are in fact, just bigots, and not alt-right.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041790Representation is LITERALLY THEM EXISTING IN THE WORK. That is all it means.

False.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/representation
2.1 matches your statement. The others do not. That is not all that representation means. I hate to get pedantic, but here we are.

QuoteIf you want to invent some boogieman about how horrible it is people think its nice to see people that share their gender/sexuality/ethnicity represented in media so that you can throw a hissy fit, go ahead, but you are being a moron.

http://mediasmarts.ca/digital-media-literacy/media-issues/diversity-media/queer-representation/queer-representation-film-television
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/we-need-to-talk-about-lgbt-representation-apparently_us_5a3d4dede4b06cd2bd03da68
http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1111368/FULLTEXT01.pdf
https://psmag.com/social-justice/why-television-needs-more-lgbt-characters
https://www.thedailybeast.com/hey-tv-producers-let-lgbtq-characters-live-and-love-equally

It's not just showing them, but showing them in a specific way, for a specific activist cause.

And you don't have to get all pissy about it.

Oh, my apologies, let me reword: Representation is about them existing in the work, and being portrayed with the same level of nuance as any other character and not as a stereotype, or a throwaway character

Seriously, from the perspective of someone that has to deal with all the bullshit, and is friends with tons of people who have to deal with all this bullshit, and has numerous family members who have to deal with all this bullshit, its honestly all we want: Characters that are like us that are treated at the same level of depth as any other character.

Are there people who take it too far? The ones who think that LGBT characters should never ever be villains because that portrays us in a bad light*, or whatever. Of course there is.

Every group has ridiculous extremists, but when you start treating the extremists like they are the norm, such as stating that what people generally mean by representation is about anything more than wanting well rounded characters representing a variety of subsections of people, you really start pushing yourself into the other extreme.

*of course, I also agree that if almost every bisexual male in media is portrayed as a sexually deviant villain, there is a problem, but on an individual level it isn't, it is the macro level

(Also on a side a note, I find it hilarious how much people think I'm some crusading SJW. The reason I ever started coming here was because I disagreed with a lot of the extremist bullshit on TBP as well.)

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041800Oh, my apologies, let me reword: Representation is about them existing in the work, and being portrayed with the same level of nuance as any other character and not as a stereotype, or a throwaway character

Seriously, from the perspective of someone that has to deal with all the bullshit, and is friends with tons of people who have to deal with all this bullshit, and has numerous family members who have to deal with all this bullshit, its honestly all we want: Characters that are like us that are treated at the same level of depth as any other character.

Are there people who take it too far? The ones who think that LGBT characters should never ever be villains because that portrays us in a bad light*, or whatever. Of course there is.

Every group has ridiculous extremists, but when you start treating the extremists like they are the norm, such as stating that what people generally mean by representation is about anything more than wanting well rounded characters representing a variety of subsections of people, you really start pushing yourself into the other extreme.

*of course, I also agree that if almost every bisexual male in media is portrayed as a sexually deviant villain, there is a problem, but on an individual level it isn't, it is the macro level

(Also on a side a note, I find it hilarious how much people think I'm some crusading SJW. The reason I ever started coming here was because I disagreed with a lot of the extremist bullshit on TBP as well.)

This guy gets it.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041800Oh, my apologies, let me reword: Representation is about them existing in the work, and being portrayed with the same level of nuance as any other character and not as a stereotype, or a throwaway character

The issue is that for the most part, NPC's are rarely nuanced.  Unless, they're of importance and very likely female, and even then, we often barely get a paragraph unless it's integral to the plot.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041777Representation is literally just them existing in the worlds and shown to exist in adventures/lore.

You are literally saying "I don't care if there is LGBT representation in RPGs but fuck LGBT representation in RPGs."

No, this is what you think is being said but it only exists inside of your own head.

And this is what your so-called "douchebags and bigots" are fighting against.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041790Representation is LITERALLY THEM EXISTING IN THE WORK. That is all it means.

If you want to invent some boogieman about how horrible it is people think its nice to see people that share their gender/sexuality/ethnicity represented in media so that you can throw a hissy fit, go ahead, but you are being a moron.

I'll tell you the same thing I told Motorskills.

If you can explain how gender/sexuality/ethnicity applies to a robot, or non-sexual alien, or artificial intelligence, or a creature that reproduces through mold infestation then I will agree with your position.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1041809The issue is that for the most part, NPC's are rarely nuanced.  Unless, they're of importance and very likely female, and even then, we often barely get a paragraph unless it's integral to the plot.

with the same level of nuance as any other character

same level of nuance

It is almost like I was saying that I would like them to be covered at the same level as other characters.

Some people on this site also decided to complain because some elves were stated to be able to change gender as a blessing of their gender fluid god. Something that took up like, a small sidebar in an entire book. This isn't some hypothetical where people are getting annoyed because someone decided to make a whole adventure about a pet NPC rather than the players. This was a situation where non-traditional gender was mentioned and supported in the lore in a small way.

So tell me, since I stated upthread what my ideal would be, what exactly do you think the ideal should be?

Because you are doing a whole hell of a lot of arguing against "Hey, occasionally having people in adventures and lore who aren't straight is nice" pretty harshly.

Quote from: jeff37923;1041812I'll tell you the same thing I told Motorskills.

If you can explain how gender/sexuality/ethnicity applies to a robot, or non-sexual alien, or artificial intelligence, or a creature that reproduces through mold infestation then I will agree with your position.

Is your entire setting inhabited by ONLY the things you list here Then yeah, gender/sexuality/ethnicity wouldn't generally apply (unless they were mimicking it from another species for some backstory reason).

The question though is: What does that have to do with discussing the portrayal of gender/sexuality/ethnicity in games that are mostly comprised of beings of humanlike biology?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041757I'm of the opinion that if the only defense of saying something is that it is literally not illegal to say, then they are probably saying something pretty shitty.

It should come as no surprise that many, many people see free speech as a licence to be an asshole 24/7. They exist on the internet because unless they live in an echo chamber, there's probably not going to be a lot of people in the real world that put up with their shit.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041814Is your entire setting inhabited by ONLY the things you list here Then yeah, gender/sexuality/ethnicity wouldn't generally apply (unless they were mimicking it from another species for some backstory reason).

The question though is: What does that have to do with discussing the portrayal of gender/sexuality/ethnicity in games that are mostly comprised of beings of humanlike biology?

Beings of humanlike biology then should match the demographics of their cultures.

Is it a male dominated warrior culture like feudal Japan? Then being gay is not only accepted, but in some female subcultures celebrated.

Is it a colony venture that does not have the technology for artificial procreation? Homosexuality may very well be against cultural norms or even illegal.

Is it an orc tribe that follows its strongest member? That orc chief may be gay and engage in rapes of tribal members that challenge his dominance for leadership.

If the biology is the same, then culture dominates. There are thousands of examples of this in history.

The questions should be, "What does the gender/sexuality/ethnicity of the NPC have to do with the game being played? Is the gender/sexuality/ethnicity of the NPC relevant to the adventure?"

If the gender/sexuality/ethnicity of the NPC does not matter then leave it out, because to include it screams of tokenism or worse its use as comic relief. GMs are smart enough to include it when and if they deem it necessary to the adventure or game.

You seem to be arguing against things that I have no problem with.

Culture will of course have influence on it, but even in cultures where being gay is illegal or looked down on heavily, it isn't like gay people don't exist. (Also, I would say that I wouldn't want to run a high level of oppression unless the players bought into it, as it can be incredibly unfun to some people (even though I'm fond of playing tortured characters, not everyone is))

And you seem to be thinking I think that they should be tokened in.

I'm referring to people on this forum who get upset when a book covers that a god is genderfluid and that they bestow the ability to change gender to some of their chosen, and they have to come online to tell people how much they hate it. Come on man. I'm not campaigning for quotas or any of that bullshit, I'm saying its nice that there is some acknowledgement of people like my friends and me.

And honestly, the interpersonal relationships of NPCs are pretty important to adventures if it is anything other than a hack and slash. So if the blacksmith apprentice is the lover of the farmhand, that can be useful information to know.

By far my favorite handling of any of this was in Numenera. In the setting portions, it lays out some towns, and some of the important NPCs for each of them. And just as it mentions the blacksmith and his wife, it might also mention another couple who are both men, or both women, who do various important things in the community. It isn't treated as some big important thing. They just are. It is treated just the same as mentioning the King and Queen of a kingdom would be mentioned.

And yet still, I remember some people on here not liking that.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041819You seem to be arguing against things that I have no problem with.

And you seem to be thinking I think that they should be tokened in.

I apologize then, I've already had this argument ad nauseum with Motorskills and it has left a bad taste in my mouth. I do not think that you believe that minority characters should be tokens - I hope that you do not believe that I think that minority characters should be tokens.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041819I'm referring to people on this forum who get upset when a book covers that a god is genderfluid and that they bestow the ability to change gender to some of their chosen, and they have to come online to tell people how much they hate it. Come on man. I'm not campaigning for quotas or any of that bullshit, I'm saying its nice that there is some acknowledgement of people like my friends and me.

OK, I grok that.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041819And honestly, the interpersonal relationships of NPCs are pretty important to adventures if it is anything other than a hack and slash. So if the blacksmith apprentice is the lover of the farmhand, that can be useful information to know.

By far my favorite handling of any of this was in Numenera. In the setting portions, it lays out some towns, and some of the important NPCs for each of them. And just as it mentions the blacksmith and his wife, it might also mention another couple who are both men, or both women, who do various important things in the community. It isn't treated as some big important thing. They just are.

See, I disagree with this. If the sexuality of the NPC is important, than it must be important for the adventure being run. If the NPCs sexual preferences are unlikely to come into play, then they are about as relevant to the game as a NPCs favorite color or favorite food. GMs can include that information on their own, in their own games as they please. Now, before you think that this only applies to GBLTs, it also applies to heterosexual NPCs as well - because if romance and sex do not happen often in my games then the sexual preferences or genders of NPCs do not matter because they are not used. FREX a man and a woman may be married and raising children to continue a dynasty, but the man is gay and the woman is a lesbian who find hetero sex to be an abhorrent necessity while the creation of dynastic power is attractive enough to overcome their distaste - now that makes for an interesting NPC group to work with where their sexual preferences matter.

You know, I think I tend to prefer Sci-fi and Fantasy stories that don't have any humans let alone people of my sexuality or gender.

I like things that are out there and different from me.

Eh, it depends on how much detail the adventure is going into in general. Mentioning tangential things about the way that the NPCs relate to each other just doesn't seem to me to be something that should upset anyone.

Just like one of the old D&D modules upthread that someone mentioned where it mentioned that one of the male enemies was the lover of one of the female enemies of the party. Technically you don't need to know that information to run the adventure, but it shouldn't offend anyone if it was a gay couple instead.

Well, someone got their parties in a wad and went full retard...yeesh.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041824Technically you don't need to know that information to run the adventure, but it shouldn't offend anyone if it was a gay couple instead.

Why is it offending you when they are hetro instead?

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1041830Why is it offending you when they are hetro instead?

It isn't? I was mentioning a situation in which information not necessary to the adventure was still included. It was to point out that adventures have always included little tidbits of info that aren't core to running it.

But I imagine you already knew that.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041831It isn't? I was mentioning a situation in which information not necessary to the adventure was still included. It was to point out that adventures have always included little tidbits of info that aren't core to running it.

But I imagine you already knew that.

Dude, it is pissing you off. Why?

:rolleyes:

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041819And you seem to be thinking I think that they should be tokened in.

I'm referring to people on this forum who get upset when a book covers that a god is genderfluid and that they bestow the ability to change gender to some of their chosen, and they have to come online to tell people how much they hate it. Come on man. I'm not campaigning for quotas or any of that bullshit, I'm saying its nice that there is some acknowledgement of people like my friends and me.

I'm sure there are some people, including on this forum, where ANY mention of a gay/bi/trans character would be cause them to reject it.

But in the case of the Magic Genderfluid Elves Chosen By God, I'm pretty sure that a lot of the dislike of this is that it is blatant virtue-signal pandering on the part of Wizards.

Get back to me when they have a gay or genderfluid character who isn't a wonderful pixie; when they have a gay or genderfluid characters who's a villain, or just an asshole, or ugly, or just boringly normal. Until then, this is just another iteration of the white-left trope of the magic negro/super-spiritual native/etc. It's the left's version of Archie Comics For Jesus.

Honestly, I think a lot of people forget that being lgbt is people's lives and not just politics.

I texted my son, who is trans, when I saw the line about Corellon's chosen being able to switch gender because I knew he would think it was cool. He was super excited to play a character based on the idea in my game.

You know, maybe people include these things because it makes real, live, people happy to see stuff that treats them like they aren't an aberration (Wizards should really apologize to all those Beholders they keep calling an aberration :P).

But you know, I'm sure instead, it fits much more into the agenda of this site to assume that people are doing it for dark, nefarious reasons.

(Also, you know, genderfluidity kind of makes sense for elves, and his been part of the lore of Corellon Larethian forever)

EDIT: Also, also, I pointed out exactly what you were talking about, completely boring gay characters, existing in Numenera. There are several people in the villages that are just mentioned as having same sex spouses in the context of "this is the town baker, this is the town smith, they are married".

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041851Honestly, I think a lot of people forget that being lgbt is people's lives and not just politics.

I remember when Dream Pod 9 put a gay couple in one of the Heavy Gear sourcebooks. I was like "Huh, neat."

Nowadays, we are constantly reminded that it's about the politics. That's why it's become such a contentious topic.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1041850But in the case of the Magic Genderfluid Elves Chosen By God, I'm pretty sure that a lot of the dislike of this is that it is blatant virtue-signal pandering on the part of Wizards.

And it was pathetic fucking weak sauce and a lost opportunity to add coolness!

All the morons at WotC needed to do was define "Blessing of Correllon" to be an Elf-only feat where Elves could use Alter Self after each long rest. Boom. Done. Coolness without any politics and FAR BETTER fits Correllon's wildly creative shapechanging nature. And it would cost a feat and be the player's choice, not some weird DM shaming exercise.

Wanna just switch your dick for tits? Great!

Wanna become a totally different humanoid? Great!

Wanna have a PC who changes bodies like others change clothing? Great!

Correllon's Blessing could have granted a form of transhumanism to elves, instead of the weak ass bullshit of virtue signalling.

AND it would be insanely easy to add to OSR games where Elves are a class.

For those not familiar, in OD&D, B/X, and retros like Labyrinth Lord, Elves are fighter/magic-user blends. Thus, all elves can begin with Alter Self as a known spell in their repertoire.

Boom. Done. Now the OSR has transhuman elves without any politics.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1041860All the morons at WotC needed to do was define "Blessing of Correllon" to be an Elf-only feat

Agreed.

I wrote this on another thread, but I will repeat it because I believe it supports your point entirely.

------Let's say a player would like the DM to allow his elf PC have the ability to change from male to female once per day. And let's say that the DM until recently has been running a campaign in which this ability was unheard of (not unlikely considering how new this book is). The DM is concerned that since this ability is relatively rare, it could be used as a means of disguise. He rules that, no, this blessing would grant the PC an unfair advantage. The player, at this point, protests: now while in-game reasons are the DM's call, the player brings in out-of-game reasons of "inclusiveness".

The DM can say "but this is my perogative as the DM" but his/her credentials as DM are now not the focus of the debate: i.e. it is not whether the DM gets to choose, but why he/she has chosen not to. His/her gaming reasons (unfair free abilities) v.s "inclusiveness" and game balance v.s. "fun-for-everyone"is a no-brainer, right?

So the DM, not wishing to be known as a bigot IRL, capitulates and the player gets the free ability. Of course, players being players, this ability is quickly used as a means of disguise and the DM decides to counter it in-game. He/She rules that the miracle is now prettty common and that it is well known that elves change sex all the time and people are on the lookout for it. The game goes on but now elves are all gender-fluid whether or not the DM intended that at his/her campaigns's creation. "Well maybe that is a good thing" and "We have all learned something" is the consensus.

Later, a player decides to play an elf. He/She is not interested in the sex-changing ability because he/she has a Legolas/Tauriel concept in mind. The DM tells the player that recently the elves are now equipped with this power as standard, but the player is free to opt-out. The new player chooses to play an elf with a fixed gender but within the campaign this is now regarded with "why can't you?" questions. Out-of-game the player is asked the same but with the implication that he/she is rejecting the new "inclusiveness". Capitulating, the player asks the DM to have the miraclous ability and the DM says okay. However the player avoids changing because he/she originally did not envisage the Legolas/Tauriel type as being gender-fluid. Once asked a few times out-of-game why he/she didn't change sex regularly, the player retires the character to play a dwarf.

OTOH, having the ability to change sex as a Feat like any other would avoid this.

DMs would have game balance issues met and players not wishing to play gender-fluid elves can simply say, "cos I wanted Feat XYZ instead".

Simple, really. And yet not written that way.-----

You know what else would be really simple.  

Putting a small side-bar in a published product to provide an option.

I swear, some of you guys are like the people complaining they see smut everywhere when it's just their own dirty minds.  Whether or not the motives behind this are political, you guys are sure hell bent on making it political.

I mean seriously: if this was actually political as you all claim, you'd think there'd be at least some people on more progressive forums like rpgnet crowing over it ....but crickets.  The only reason I know about it is because of the bruhaha it's made here.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041851Honestly, I think a lot of people forget that being lgbt is people's lives and not just politics.

That's always a good thing to remember, I agree.

Quote from: Emperor NortonI texted my son, who is trans, when I saw the line about Corellon's chosen being able to switch gender because I knew he would think it was cool. He was super excited to play a character based on the idea in my game.

I get that, and I'm honestly pleased for you and your son.

Quote from: Emperor NortonYou know, maybe people include these things because it makes real, live, people happy to see stuff that treats them like they aren't an aberration (Wizards should really apologize to all those Beholders they keep calling an aberration :P).

At the root of this, people want to feel they're normal people.

Quote from: Emperor NortonBut you know, I'm sure instead, it fits much more into the agenda of this site to assume that people are doing it for dark, nefarious reasons.

I'm willing to bet that the majority of people that are from a gay, bi and lesbian sexual orientation just want to be decently treated, in RPGs as in other medium. The majority of transexual people would like that too, I don't doubt it.

It's just too bad that this legitimate need has been hijacked by a very vocal and shrill minority of self-proclaimed crusaders for social rights - the so-called SJWs, who could be defined as gender-identity afflicted cultural marxists.

A large part of this minority is not thinking clearly and is in the Crusade for the sick but ho-so-sweet pain of feeling like a victim acknowledged by society at large.

Some, the leaders certainly, are in it for the power the crusade confers them. They are power tripping, mob-ilizing (the mob of) public opinion to socially execute those they don't like.

There are also many bystanders who daren't speak for fear of having the mob unleashed on them, or who feel sympathetic to the Cause because they are deceived by the word "justice" advocated by the SJWs. Many of those bystanders, I think, are also frozen by the guilt of being "privileged" (whatever the f... that means).

To make things clear, I'm not criticizing the SJWs for wanting to advance their Cause (although I think their idea of a just society is ill-advised) : I'm opposed in principle to their methods of advocacy -that is shaming, lying, arguing in bad faith, counterfeiting and mobbing in social media, slandering , and generally trying to silence their opposition by any means necessary.

However uncouth, or downright rude, the tone of voice may be in this forum, I find it a breath of fresh (if raucous) air after trying to have a reasoned discourse in other RPG forums (namely RPG.net, ENworld and the Paizo forums).

One tires of being called a racist or a bigot simply for disagreeing with one's opponent.

Quote from: Emperor Norton(Also, you know, genderfluidity kind of makes sense for elves, and his been part of the lore of Corellon Larethian forever)

Agreed. Anyway, Elves have always been kinda fruity to me :D.   <----- this here is a joke. Maybe it's in bad taste, but it damn feels good to joke. Maybe it's offensive, but it's sometimes okay to be a little offensive (as Milo Yianopoulos somewhat put it : "If you're old enough to take a dick, you're also old enough to take a joke"). And no, I'm not alt-right. I'm kind of a past leftie with a sense of humour.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1041862AND it would be insanely easy to add to OSR games where Elves are a class.
Boom. Done. Now the OSR has transhuman elves without any politics.

Didn't you mean "transsexual", rather than "transhuman" ?

Though I suppose a case could be made for Elves to be "trans-human" :p.

But transhumanism evokes another notion for me (i.e the deluded notion that humans can be made better than human by the judicious [ha !] use of technology).
Sorry for this pedantic aside :).

Quote from: TJS;1041874You know what else would be really simple.  

Putting a small side-bar in a published product to provide an option.

You'd think so, but that's not what happened. So...

Quote from: TJS;1041874I mean seriously: if this was actually political as you all claim, you'd think there'd be at least some people on more progressive forums like rpgnet crowing over it ....but crickets.  

You never clicked on a single link to articles doing just that?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041851Honestly, I think a lot of people forget that being lgbt is people's lives and not just politics.

I texted my son, who is trans, when I saw the line about Corellon's chosen being able to switch gender because I knew he would think it was cool. He was super excited to play a character based on the idea in my game.

You know, maybe people include these things because it makes real, live, people happy to see stuff that treats them like they aren't an aberration (Wizards should really apologize to all those Beholders they keep calling an aberration :P).

But you know, I'm sure instead, it fits much more into the agenda of this site to assume that people are doing it for dark, nefarious reasons.

(Also, you know, genderfluidity kind of makes sense for elves, and his been part of the lore of Corellon Larethian forever)

EDIT: Also, also, I pointed out exactly what you were talking about, completely boring gay characters, existing in Numenera. There are several people in the villages that are just mentioned as having same sex spouses in the context of "this is the town baker, this is the town smith, they are married".

Not having read Numenera, I can't really comment on that personally. But regardless, my point is that it's not really 'equality' until lgbt elements are treated as not anything special at all.
I think I did that in Arrows of Indra and Lords of Olympus.

I just watched the video where Jeremy Crawford of WotC talks about the Dark Elves.

Sorry if this seems off-subject, but somehow I think it's relevant to the discussion.

In the interview of Jeremy Crawford, we heard that the Drows, those creatures of unspeakable evil, condemn those Elves blessed by Corellon to being able to change their sex.

So, for the god of Elves, being transsexual is a blessing :rolleyes:. And the twisted Drow reject that blessing. Ho, the villainy !

I'm laughing my ass off just thinking about it. What a SJW wet dream it is :D!

Not that I feel incensed by it. Every game creator should indulge in a little feel-good wankery in his games once in a while.

Just naming it as I see it.

It makes me wonder if I will include this gender-fluidity of Elves  in my games ?

All this talk of inclusion in RPGs makes me want to play an horribly intolerant campaign of flaming heterosexuality. What are RPGs good for, if not for indulging our brighter or darker impulses :p ?

Quote from: Lychee of the Exchequer;1041881It makes me wonder if I will include this gender-fluidity of Elves  in my games ?

If you don't, you can expect accusations of bigotry. Which is why it should have been written as a Feat and/or for a specific campaign setting .

I vaguely remember there being several queer characters in Castle Amber. Or maybe that was just my DM's interpretation. But I don't remember anyone at the table complaining about politics in the game at the time. Maybe because it was about making the characters more interesting rather than making them more politically correct. Because while these characters were definitely not straight they weren't politically correct either.

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1041882If you don't, you can expect accusations of bigotry. Which is why it should have been written as a Feat and/or for a specific campaign setting .

My players aren't USians, and don't care about the SJws agenda, so I'm fine.

My wife's American and a fairly left leaning one at that, but even she rolled her eyes at the Mord's Elves.

OTOH, I betcha that if you went on the Big Purple and posted something to the effect of "I don't use the gender-fluid elves rules because..." you would get a lot of accusations of bigotry.

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1041882If you don't, you can expect accusations of bigotry. Which is why it should have been written as a Feat and/or for a specific campaign setting .

I don't run 5e so it doesn't effect me at all.

I have trouble caring about this issue, both the praising and the concern seems like nonsense. Why are you playing with people who would call you bigoted based on a setting choice? Get better friends.
I also don't know any trans people who want to play trans characters rather than one that just is their desired gender.

What are the chances that future games to be judged on whether they have similar gender-fluid races or whether they fail to be "inclusive"?

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1041887What are the chances that future games to be judged on whether they have similar gender-fluid races or whether they fail to be "inclusive"?

In the near future, pretty damned high. Further out, ideally a non-issue.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1041886I also don't know any trans people who want to play trans characters rather than one that just is their desired gender.

Do you know many trans people in that case (i.e they definitely want their character to be male or female) ?

It's a genuine question, not trying to be inflammatory here.

Quote from: Lychee of the Exchequer;1041891Do you know many trans people in that case (i.e they definitely want their character to be male or female) ?

It's a genuine question, not trying to be inflammatory here.

2 to 3 ish, not everyone sticks with it, hence the range.

You can also pick up a bit from those that post online. I haven't heard of any one who medically pursue that life that also glorifies in being trans. One Artist, whose comic I read, brought it up once and then never mentioned it again. Many of the fans on that site don't even know she used to be a man.
What I get from their experiences is that most consider being trans an affliction, not something to glorify or revel in that status, let alone something you would roleplay as in an RPG for escapism.

A big difference with the T in LGBT, is that if they could push a button and be a normal person of the gender they desire or a button that removes that desire, close to 100% would push it and never deal with trans issues again. Meanwhile many of the LGB would be very hesitant to rewrite their psychology to be "normal". For many people in the T category, it will take more than social acceptance to not hate being trans. Actual medical advancements are needed before that process is easy enough to not be a horrible burden on the individual.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1041522Indeed.  I'm not sure what they are, but biologically viable, they are not!  The rest of the art is pretty good, mind you.

Oh so very. One theory was that WOTC was going to make halflings another demon spawn/touched addition to toe long list of 5e creatures that were changed to somehow now instead be the product of some demon.

Either that or those were going to be half-goblins in the game... ahem... :eek:

Quote from: Larsdangly;1041546You guys are confusing the ell out of me. How are you seeing weirdly drawn hobbits as some sort of political attack launched by the hard left? Either this thread has unravelled into a random discussion of whatever, or there is some sort of very 'meta' reading of fantasy game artwork that I'm not seeing.

Most of us arent. We are just making fun of the fucked up looking halflings in the book.

Personally I dont see anything political with any of the art in the three core books or even the first three supplements. Still dont have the Mordenkeinen book yet so cant say on that aside from the elf thing which sounds like a storm in a teacup if its just limited to a blessing for one sect of followers and not ALL elves.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:  if there is so much demand for LGBTQ gaming products why aren't more people writing for it?  Could it be that the market isn't big enough to warrant such a thing?  Or is it a case that most LGBTQ are mature adults and recognize that they can add WTF they want to their Fantasy Elf Games?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041658I'm not going to accuse anyone of being Alt-Right, but when people on this board seem to get angry at any inclusion, or mention, of LGBT in D&D as some kind of attack on them, it sure as hell doesn't make it feel like this place is as "inclusive" as they all claim to be.

The fact that people think any mention of someone like me, or like my friend group, or like my son, being mentioned as existing is "SJW bullshit" kind of makes it feel pretty oppressive.

I think that "progressives" can go too far sometimes, but I also think that this forum goes the opposite way so far as to try to find boogiemen to defend their hobby from, and that can create a certain impression.

So far the complaints havent been about depictions in games. The problem is when someone adds us in and then blatantly virtuesignals it for the SJW points. The problem is when its there just for the points or to fill out the checklist. Not because it fits or... just because!

And thats what we have been reduced to. Items on a checklist.

The thing for me is that most of those demanding "representation" wouldn't actually be happy if they got honest proportional representation of their particular desire.

1 in 25 NPCs being LGBT (half of those Bi, less than 1 in 200 Trans) would actually be propotional representation for a modern sexually libertine society with alternatives to one's own children for elder care (3.8 to 4.1% of the US population depending on the study).

Just how many relevant NPCs (those important enough to get an individual description or even a name) are the PCs likely to interact with in a given location? An Innkeeper, a couple shopkeepers/merchants, someone from the temple, someone from law enforcement, an entertainer at the inn and/or other colorful occupant and maybe a patron interested in hiring them? So with those numbers proportional representation would be one LGBT NPC for every three communities the PCs visit (one bi-sexual every six communities, one gay every dozen, one lesbian every dozen and one Trans every 30 or so communities visited).

There are more in the community, but 90% are peasants/serfs just like 90 % of everyone else and aren't going be interacted with unless the PCs go out of their way to do so.

This further presumes that the NPCs sexuality is even relevant to the PCs interaction with them. Its not like being LGBT causes a neon sign to flash above one's head. When the only LGBT NPC in the town is the shopkeeper of the general store the PCs are only visiting to buy some more rope, whether the shopkeeper goes home to his husband at the end of the day isn't likely to even come up before the PCs are off to some new dungeon and other community in proximity to it.

In other words, if we used actual proportional representation it is entirely possible to run an entire level 1-20 campaign without the players even once realizing they encountered a LGBT NPC unless they're deliberately looking for one.

This isn't at all what those pushing for "representation" want in my experience. They don't want representation; they want focus. Popular media caving to this focus is why studies show that the majority of Americans believe 25% or more of the population is LGBT (vs. the 4% it is in reality).

Quote from: Omega;1041900So far the complaints havent been about depictions in games. The problem is when someone adds us in and then blatantly virtuesignals it for the SJW points. The problem is when its there just for the points or to fill out the checklist. Not because it fits or... just because!

And thats what we have been reduced to. Items on a checklist.

Genderfluidity as a blessing of a god that has been genderfluid since 1e isn't a situation where it fits?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041904Genderfluidity as a blessing of a god that has been genderfluid since 1e isn't a situation where it fits?

So, as a blessing, you're ascribing to the notion that genderfliudity is an improvement over being cis-gendered?

:rolleyes:

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041914:rolleyes:

Sorry bro, I am not the one doing the painting.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1041913So, as a blessing, you're ascribing to the notion that genderfliudity is an improvement over being cis-gendered?

Maybe if your name is Berg Katse.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1041913So, as a blessing, you're ascribing to the notion that genderfliudity is an improvement over being cis-gendered?

No, some elf god holds that notion and blesses accordingly. Another god might give you the Blessing of Immutable Gender, because that god holds the opposite view about the whole thing. Those gods, man, so much like ourselves it's scary.

Quote from: Gorilla_Zod;1041921No, some elf god holds that notion and blesses accordingly. Another god might give you the Blessing of Immutable Gender, because that god holds the opposite view about the whole thing. Those gods, man, so much like ourselves it's scary.

Hush, you and your "being reasonable and having a sense of proportion."

Quote from: Gorilla_Zod;1041921No, some elf god holds that notion and blesses accordingly. Another god might give you the Blessing of Immutable Gender, because that god holds the opposite view about the whole thing. Those gods, man, so much like ourselves it's scary.

This exactly.

Also Ras, if you are wondering why I'm just rolling my eyes at you, it is because you are clearly not attempting to have a conversation, you are attempting to troll.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041926This exactly.

Also Ras, if you are wondering why I'm just rolling my eyes at you, it is because you are clearly not attempting to have a conversation, you are attempting to troll.

Get used to it. Nearly all of Ras Algethi's posts can be summed up with the following meme....

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2520[/ATTACH]

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1041935[ATTACH=CONFIG]2520[/ATTACH]

And with one meme, Doc Sammy demonstrates the Thread Title.

Quote from: Gorilla_Zod;1041921No, some elf god holds that notion and blesses accordingly. Another god might give you the Blessing of Immutable Gender, because that god holds the opposite view about the whole thing. Those gods, man, so much like ourselves it's scary.

If such a god existed in D&D today, it would be evil... correct?

Quote from: jeff37923;1041939And with one meme, Doc Sammy demonstrates the Thread Title.

He is not a particularly bright one is he?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041926This exactly.

Also Ras, if you are wondering why I'm just rolling my eyes at you, it is because you are clearly not attempting to have a conversation, you are attempting to troll.

Or, you know, your position is weak as hell.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1041943If such a god existed in D&D today, it would be evil... correct?

Per Mordenkainen's Tome, it's a goddess--Lolth--that goes there, and yes, she's evil.

Ok, so out of curiosity, having the CHOICE to be whatever gender you want to be every day. The choice, meaning if you feel that you are a man, you can be a man every day. If you feel like you are a woman, you can be a woman every day. If you feel like being either, you can pick and choose per day. How would you see the choice as being anything but fitting for a god like Corellan Larethian?

I'm genuinely curious. The ability doesn't make you change at random. You only change when you choose to. To me that sounds exactly like what Corellan is, Chaotic Good. Individual freedom combined with understanding and kindness.

Quote from: Lychee of the Exchequer;1041891Do you know many trans people in that case (i.e they definitely want their character to be male or female) ?

It's a genuine question, not trying to be inflammatory here.

I've had two FtM players in my group. Both played male characters, unsurprisingly.

Then again, they identified as male, not trans.

Also, how does Lolth being any other way not fit her fluff. Lolth believes men are lesser. A woman changing to a man would be blasphemy. A man changing to a woman would be trying to become better than his station.

Like, I don't get how people think this doesn't fit the established lore of the two Gods that has existed for a long ass time.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041948Ok, so out of curiosity, having the CHOICE to be whatever gender you want to be every day. The choice, meaning if you feel that you are a man, you can be a man every day. If you feel like you are a woman, you can be a woman every day. If you feel like being either, you can pick and choose per day. How would you see the choice as being anything but fitting for a god like Corellan Larethian?

I'm genuinely curious. The ability doesn't make you change at random. You only change when you choose to. To me that sounds exactly like what Corellan is, Chaotic Good. Individual freedom combined with understanding and kindness.

I was always under the impression that Corellan was just a straight up shapeshifter.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1041949I've had two FtM players in my group. Both played male characters, unsurprisingly.

Then again, they identified as male, not trans.

I've had trans people in my games several time. One tfm player played a mtf character. He thought it was an interesting thing to play. Another played a gender neutral character who dressed differently each day, sometimes feminine, sometimes masculine.

Its all fucking anecdotes. Some do, some don't.

Hell, I'm cis and still played a trans character before. I thought it was interesting.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1041943If such a god existed in D&D today, it would be evil... correct?

Ras may be hard pressed to formulate an essay but I grudgingly concede sometimes a single statement is pretty darn good.

Quote from: jeff37923;1041939And with one meme, Doc Sammy demonstrates the Thread Title.

Yeah, the thread came full circle. Where's that "everyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi" image...

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1041943If such a god existed in D&D today, it would be evil... correct?

Heh...

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041904Genderfluidity as a blessing of a god that has been genderfluid since 1e isn't a situation where it fits?

Nice goalpost shifting there. But you fail really badly. Try again please.

I looked through the complete book of elves and theres no mention of that elven god being gender fluid or any such blessing. I dont recall it in any published AD&D books either. And no. Dragon doesnt count. But I am pretty sure there was some mention in Dragon and possibly some other book. And more to the point. no one was virtue signalling its presence back then. And sorry. No I was not saying that the latest 5e book is a problem. Please re-read where I note I do not think its a problem.

Anything else you'd like to get wrong?

Here is the thing about "BUT VIRTUE SIGNALING".

Let's say, that 100%, you are absolutely right about the reason why it is in there. That it has nothing to do with the people writing it wanting to put it in there and everything to do with flag waving.

By getting angry and bitching about it on forums, aren't you literally saying that you care more about scoring points against some political agenda than you do the people that are genuinely uplifted by it existing?

Like, you care more about being able to call out someone you think is being disingenuous (emphasis on you think, because I think people are actually doing it because they think it is the right thing to do, not because they are trying to score ponts) than you do some LGBTQ kid or teen who reads the books and feels better because they don't feel as alienated.

Quote from: Omega;1041966I looked through the complete book of elves and theres no mention of that elven god being gender fluid or any such blessing. I dont recall it in any published AD&D books either. And no. Dragon doesnt count.

Deities and Demigods 1980, page 106
"Corellon is alternately male and female, both or neither."

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041968Here is the thing about "BUT VIRTUE SIGNALING".

Let's say, that 100%, you are absolutely right about the reason why it is in there. That it has nothing to do with the people writing it wanting to put it in there and everything to do with flag waving.

By getting angry and bitching about it on forums, aren't you literally saying that you care more about scoring points against some political agenda than you do the people that are genuinely uplifted by it existing?

Like, you care more about being able to call out someone you think is being disingenuous (emphasis on you think, because I think people are actually doing it because they think it is the right thing to do, not because they are trying to score ponts) than you do some LGBTQ kid or teen who reads the books and feels better because they don't feel as alienated.

Going to be honest. I don't like ideologues using established game settings to advance their politics to three tenths of a percent of the US population. You can literally make any game you want.

So be a pioneer. Make the inclusive game you want. Make it good. Be proud of your achievement. And stop deriding the hobby whose shirt tails you cling to.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1041970Going to be honest. I don't like ideologues using established game settings to advance their politics to three tenths of a percent of the US population. You can literally make any game you want.

So be a pioneer. Make the inclusive game you want. Make it good. Be proud of your achievement. And stop deriding the hobby whose shirt tails you cling to.

Then why are people so salty when the people at WotC are making the game they want?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041971Then why are people so salty when the people at WotC are making the game they want?

I'll give you my reason.

Because it does not appear that WotC is concentrating on making a better or more fun game, it appears that they are trying to push an agenda of inclusiveness uber alles and representation above all else. It is especially galling since gamers have been far more open and accepting for decades prior to this current push and we are being called backwards because we have been this accepting without all of the fanfare. If WotC concentrated on making a better game, the rest would fall into place naturally - just like it has before.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041779Recent? I had been away from this board for like 3 years and I'm not surprised to see it hasn't changed.

I'm not surprised to hear that, but yes, there have been a few threads over the last month or two that were in this forum rather than the Pundit forum, and were/are filled to the gills with ranting anti-"SJW" tirades. If the usual frequency level of anti-"SJW" comments here were rated a level 8, those threads raised it to maybe a 40 for a while, and several people who complained got themselves banned or ragequit, etc.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1041860And it was pathetic fucking weak sauce and a lost opportunity to add coolness!

All the morons at WotC needed to do was define "Blessing of Correllon" to be an Elf-only feat where Elves could use Alter Self after each long rest. Boom. Done. Coolness without any politics and FAR BETTER fits Correllon's wildly creative shapechanging nature. And it would cost a feat and be the player's choice, not some weird DM shaming exercise.

Wanna just switch your dick for tits? Great!

Wanna become a totally different humanoid? Great!

Wanna have a PC who changes bodies like others change clothing? Great!

Correllon's Blessing could have granted a form of transhumanism to elves, instead of the weak ass bullshit of virtue signalling.

Thing is, the ability to 'alter self' is the Eberron Changeling's ability.  It's already been done.  Do better WoTC.

Alt-right / Nazi accusations are pretty common place now, I've even encountered its usage in RL from time to time.
It's almost completely lost its power to mean anything anymore IMO and if I hear/see it, I assume they're talking crap.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041968Here is the thing about "BUT VIRTUE SIGNALING".

Let's say, that 100%, you are absolutely right about the reason why it is in there. That it has nothing to do with the people writing it wanting to put it in there and everything to do with flag waving.

By getting angry and bitching about it on forums, aren't you literally saying that you care more about scoring points against some political agenda than you do the people that are genuinely uplifted by it existing?

Like, you care more about being able to call out someone you think is being disingenuous (emphasis on you think, because I think people are actually doing it because they think it is the right thing to do, not because they are trying to score ponts) than you do some LGBTQ kid or teen who reads the books and feels better because they don't feel as alienated.

Because compassion has been weaponized.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1041977Thing is, the ability to 'alter self' is the Eberron Changeling's ability.  It's already been done.  Do better WoTC.

So much this. The most annoying thing about the SJW virtue signalling is that is pushing forward such banal real world things in settings that have literal transhumanism as a basis for whole chunks of their settings. Forget "gender-fluid"... Sci-fi and fantasy have been exploring "species-fluid" and "three-plus gender species" for decades now... and done in a way that gets people to really think about the issues instead of shoving modern day politics into their face (ex. Star Trek at its best with controversial issues of the day masked in the allegory of science fiction).

Limiting things to simply non-binary gender is frankly a step backwards that is more likely to provoke people's base political instincts because that specific thing is currently being used as a club against people, particularly those with deeply held religious convictions, that automatically make them revert to "my side vs. your side" in the ways that say, an actual changeling species that can look like any humanoid creature of any gender at will and the implications that has for self-identity, will not because the more fantastical nature of it allows for it to be allegory and metaphor for those on the cusp without triggering that "us vs. them" political instinct.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1041944He is not a particularly bright one is he?

One should not throw stones in glass houses, now.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1041993One should not throw stones in glass houses, now.

Have you met my friend, kettle?

Kettle, this is pot.

Quote from: jeff37923;1041972If WotC concentrated on making a better game, the rest would fall into place naturally - just like it has before.

5e is not really fixable at this point and this is probably the best edition these guys are ever going to put out.

Adding a bunch of crunch via new supplements is unlikely to help either.

At this point they can only really try to appease current fans and ward off critics by telling people that disliking this game makes you a bad person.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1041971Then why are people so salty when the people at WotC are making the game they want?

The game wasn't made to their personal specifications, so therefore it sucks. :D

Quote from: Krimson;1042005The game wasn't made to their personal specifications, so therefore it sucks. :D

I think you are joking, but no other version of D&D was made to my personal expectations either and they were OK. Well, except for D&D 4e which sucked, but that version didn't try and push this SJW agenda either. So it isn't what you jokingly claim.

Quote from: jeff37923;1042011I think you are joking, but no other version of D&D was made to my personal expectations either and they were OK. Well, except for D&D 4e which sucked, but that version didn't try and push this SJW agenda either. So it isn't what you jokingly claim.

I'm having trouble believing that a secret cabal sat in a hidden room and laid out plans to make D&D according to some political agenda.

Quote from: Krimson;1042013I'm having trouble believing that a secret cabal sat in a hidden room and laid out plans to make D&D according to some political agenda.

  No, but it is being made by people living in Seattle and largely embracing progressive sentiments.

Quote from: Krimson;1042013I'm having trouble believing that a secret cabal sat in a hidden room and laid out plans to make D&D according to some political agenda.

They are hardly secret and not hidden at all. These people are LOUD and PROUD of furthering their agenda. That is why it is called Virtue Signalling.

Quote from: jeff37923;1042020They are hardly secret and not hidden at all. These people are LOUD and PROUD of furthering their agenda. That is why it is called Virtue Signalling.

The great thing about living in a Capitalist society is that you are free to speak the ONLY language that matters. Money. Talk with your wallet, because nothing else in the world matters.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1042018No, but it is being made by people living in Seattle and largely embracing progressive sentiments.

And who's fault was it that led to WoTC buying TSR?

Quote from: Krimson;1042021The great thing about living in a Capitalist society is that you are free to speak the ONLY language that matters. Money. Talk with your wallet, because nothing else in the world matters.

I already have. Voicing my opinion here is just the icing on the cake. :D

Quote from: Krimson;1042022And who's fault was it that led to WoTC buying TSR?

TSR.  Their lousy mismanagement of their own business was pretty much the only reason.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1042024TSR.  Their lousy mismanagement of their own business was pretty much the only reason.

There we go. The SJW takeover can be blamed squarely on people who couldn't manage money properly. Capitalism wins.

Quote from: jeff37923;1042020They are hardly secret and not hidden at all. These people are LOUD and PROUD of furthering their agenda. That is why it is called Virtue Signalling.

So what exactly is it that you guys are doing by being loud and proud about being upset about it? I mean, I guess in your mind, your loud and proud of doing the right thing, while they are being loud and proud of .... what exactly?

Like, in all honesty, they are doing what they think is right and they are happy about doing it. How dare they be proud about doing what they think is the right thing!

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042026So what exactly is it that you guys are doing by being loud and proud about being upset about it? I mean, I guess in your mind, your loud and proud of doing the right thing, while they are being loud and proud of .... what exactly?

Like, in all honesty, they are doing what they think is right and they are happy about doing it. How dare they be proud about doing what they think is the right thing!

I think the decision is driven by what will give you the largest customer base and therefore the largest cash flow. Capitalism wins.

Quote from: Krimson;1042022And who's fault was it that led to WoTC buying TSR?

Lorraine Williams?

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1042028Lorraine Williams?

Someone had to hire her.

Quote from: Krimson;1042025There we go. The SJW takeover can be blamed squarely on people who couldn't manage money properly. Capitalism wins.

A five minute google search doesn't tell me what Peter Adkison's political leanings are.  It's probably left wing but no evidence that he is SJW.  He bought TSR because the guys who owned WotC were gamers and wanted to own D&D.  Shortly afterwards he got an offer he couldn't refuse from Hasbro.  Fast forward 15 years and SJW types are starting to pull the same shit they pulled at Marvel at WotC.  The SJW takeover is due to current management at WotC and is divorced from the TSR purchase by a literal decade and a half.

Quote from: Krimson;1042029Someone had to hire her.

So Gary Gygax.

Quote from: KingCheops;1042031A five minute google search doesn't tell me what Peter Adkison's political leanings are.  It's probably left wing but no evidence that he is SJW.  He bought TSR because the guys who owned WotC were gamers and wanted to own D&D.  Shortly afterwards he got an offer he couldn't refuse from Hasbro.  Fast forward 15 years and SJW types are starting to pull the same shit they pulled at Marvel at WotC.  The SJW takeover is due to current management at WotC and is divorced from the TSR purchase by a literal decade and a half.

Decisions are made to make money. If the political side goes too far it wouldn't surprise me if Hasbro just pulled the plug on D&D and then just released branded versions of board games to keep the IP.

Quote from: Krimson;1042033Decisions are made to make money. If the political side goes too far it wouldn't surprise me if Hasbro just pulled the plug on D&D and then just released branded versions of board games to keep the IP.

Agreed.  My issue was with you saying that TSR's mismanagement and WotC's decision to buy are the genesis of the SJW problem.  It's not.

Quote from: KingCheops;1042034Agreed.  My issue was with you saying that TSR's mismanagement and WotC's decision to buy are the genesis of the SJW problem.  It's not.

It certainly set up the scene for the takeover to happen. Better money management could have meant TSR would still be TSR. Oh hey, Palladium is having money issues. Maybe someone could bail them out. :D

Quote from: Krimson;1042035It certainly set up the scene for the takeover to happen. Better money management could have meant TSR would still be TSR. Oh hey, Palladium is having money issues. Maybe someone could bail them out. :D

Jesus Fucking Christ.  Ignored.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042026So what exactly is it that you guys are doing by being loud and proud about being upset about it? I mean, I guess in your mind, your loud and proud of doing the right thing, while they are being loud and proud of .... what exactly?

Like, in all honesty, they are doing what they think is right and they are happy about doing it. How dare they be proud about doing what they think is the right thing!

God forbid someone bitch about the fact a game they love is being fucked up by a bunch of whiny SJWs...

I obviously don't buy that the OSR is over run with alt-right nit-wits. If it were I wouldn't have anything to do with it. The OSR is mostly nerdy game stuff focused on games I happen to think are worth playing.

But there is definitely a vocal minority here who get their panties in a bunch about the horrors of inclusive art work or statements on race and gender. If you are one of those people, then you absolutely are part of the alt-right nitwit fringe, and you deserve to have all those shrill left wing fingers pointed at you. Why do you give a shit if there is a picture of a woman in plate armor or a sentence somewhere about transgendered characters or whatever? How does that impact you at all? And if you don't like it for some reason, why don't you just ignore it and play all the dozens and hundreds of games out there that don't do any of those things?

Quote from: Krimson;1042013I'm having trouble believing that a secret cabal sat in a hidden room and laid out plans to make D&D according to some political agenda.

You wouldn't get virtual signal points if it was secrete now would you.

Quote from: Brad;1042038God forbid someone bitch about the fact a game they love is being fucked up by a bunch of whiny SJWs...

How exactly is having a rare blessing of Corellon Larethian grant the ability to change gender, or the existence of LGBT characters in adventures, fucking up the game?

Also, I've never met anyone whinier than people who go online to bitch about "D&D being ruined."

Quote from: Larsdangly;1042039Why do you give a shit if there is a picture of a woman in plate armor or a sentence somewhere about transgendered characters or whatever?

Maybe because some politically-motivated folks make a lot of noise denigrating gamers by making accusations that the old school is misogynistic and excluded women from the game...

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f4/cb/5e/f4cb5e447a07316280e8f6cb2f64822c.jpg)

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-U1ziAYqbNKU/U2wpd3zbddI/AAAAAAAACHo/jBQC0Eiqu0g/s1600/characters+1+resize.jpg)

(https://db4sgowjqfwig.cloudfront.net/campaigns/107682/assets/420858/BasicCoverArt.jpg)

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--x10G0Ckyw8/U4UzcX9GnvI/AAAAAAAACMs/OSeI__ublDk/s1600/Morgan+Ironwolf+resize.jpg)

Quote from: darthfozzywig;1042042(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--x10G0Ckyw8/U4UzcX9GnvI/AAAAAAAACMs/OSeI__ublDk/s1600/Morgan+Ironwolf+resize.jpg)

... Why does her armor have nipples? Where is her waist? Why is she not wearing pants?

Like, I'm not even asking these questions saying it is sexist, I'm just saying holy hell what is that.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042041How exactly is having a rare blessing of Corellon Larethian grant the ability to change gender, or the existence of LGBT characters in adventures, fucking up the game?

Also, I've never met anyone whinier than people who go online to bitch about "D&D being ruined."

I typed up a long reply, but am deleting it because I'm not gonna take the retard bait.

Quote from: Brad;1042044I typed up a long reply, but am deleting it because I'm not gonna take the retard bait.

"Trust me, I have a rational reason that makes me not sound like an asshole who doesn't want LGBT people represented in their game, I'm not going to tell you what it is, but really, I do!"

Quote from: darthfozzywig;1042042Maybe because some politically-motivated folks make a lot of noise denigrating gamers by making accusations that the old school is misogynistic and excluded women from the game...

So, your response to some foaming-at-the-mouth web piece about the alt-right is to to be upset about WOC having inclusive images and language? That would not make sense in any situation, but especially makes no sense because WOC didn't accuse you of anything. You are basically making the 'SJW's' point for them.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042045"Trust me, I have a rational reason that makes me not sound like an asshole who doesn't want LGBT people represented in their game, I'm not going to tell you what it is, but really, I do!"

You go ahead and think whatever you want; your several posts in this thread make the obvious case that you're the one with an axe to grind.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042043... Why does her armor have nipples? Where is her waist? Why is she not wearing pants?

Like, I'm not even asking these questions saying it is sexist, I'm just saying holy hell what is that.

Rob Liefeld's inspiration?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042026So what exactly is it that you guys are doing by being loud and proud about being upset about it? I mean, I guess in your mind, your loud and proud of doing the right thing, while they are being loud and proud of .... what exactly?

Like, in all honesty, they are doing what they think is right and they are happy about doing it. How dare they be proud about doing what they think is the right thing!

For me, it involves pointing out the hypocrisy of it, because when this first showed up as the infamous sidebar during the initial launch of D&D 5E it was ham-fisted and failed to acknowledge that gamers have been "woke" for years without crowing about it. Feel free to go back and find my posts here about that. Just because you Virtue Signal, doesn't mean that the particular virtue you are signalling was not already present - it just means that the Virtue Signaller thinks that they are special for reinventing the wheel.

Quote from: Krimson;1042027I think the decision is driven by what will give you the largest customer base and therefore the largest cash flow. Capitalism wins.

So the Virtue Signalling by WotC is what gives them the biggest cash flow and not continuing to try and peddle Tabletop WoW. Gotcha.

This idea that the OSR is comprised of Alt-Right sympathizers (or even members --if there is such a thing as membership) is completely absurd.

The guys in my gaming group are pretty conservative for the most part. One is somewhat right-wing (there are a couple liberals as well). They only want to play AD&D 1st and 2nd edition. None of them play OSR, MYFAROG, etc.

What "Alt-Right" authors of OSR material are even out there? Who?

Varg isn't even Alt-Right. He is just some pagan dude with strange opinions living in the woods ...

And where did this idea that Zak S was somehow rejected by members of the hobby because of his adult-film background? I've never met any lefty gamer who had strong opinions about Zak --most seem to like him. His books have won Ennie awards.

Wizards of the Coast just named Satine Phoenix the public relations director of the company yes? (or I have heard). If gamers had an issue with sex-industry work, I wouldn't have expected this.

Quote from: Krimson;1042048Rob Liefeld's inspiration?

I remember "how to draw" books starting with a nekkid character, and then drawing stuff on the character. For superheroes, this was simply adding lines to a character's body to represent a skintight super suit.
I suspect that style carried over for some of the early D&D illustrators. Jeff Dee's stuff seems particularly like that.

(http://fierydragon.com/dragonsbreath/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/07.jpg)

Quote from: Silas1066;1042051Varg isn't even Alt-Right. He is just some pagan dude with strange opinions living in the woods ...

(https://rpgcharacters.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/mad-hermit.jpg?w=529)

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1042052I remember "how to draw" books starting with a nekkid character, and then drawing stuff on the character. For superheroes, this was simply adding lines to a character's body to represent a skintight super suit.
I suspect that style carried over for some of the early D&D illustrators.

I'd like to see the template for that. :D

Quote from: jeff37923;1042050So the Virtue Signalling by WotC is what gives them the biggest cash flow and not continuing to try and peddle Tabletop WoW. Gotcha.

Actually I think it's Magic Cards.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042045"Trust me, I have a rational reason that makes me not sound like an asshole who doesn't want LGBT people represented in their game, I'm not going to tell you what it is, but really, I do!"

So, you are just trolling here. Good to know. I can stop trying to act like you are intellectually honest then.

I do find it interesting that this pushback from you on this issue coincides with the Supreme Court siding with Masterpiece Cakeshop in a 7-2 ruling. (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/06/04/supreme-court-decides-colorado-gay-wedding-cake-case-timeline-events.html)

Quote from: Larsdangly;1042039I obviously don't buy that the OSR is over run with alt-right nit-wits. If it were I wouldn't have anything to do with it. The OSR is mostly nerdy game stuff focused on games I happen to think are worth playing.

But there is definitely a vocal minority here who get their panties in a bunch about the horrors of inclusive art work or statements on race and gender. If you are one of those people, then you absolutely are part of the alt-right nitwit fringe, and you deserve to have all those shrill left wing fingers pointed at you. Why do you give a shit if there is a picture of a woman in plate armor or a sentence somewhere about transgendered characters or whatever? How does that impact you at all? And if you don't like it for some reason, why don't you just ignore it and play all the dozens and hundreds of games out there that don't do any of those things?

This guy gets it.

Quote from: jeff37923;1042049For me, it involves pointing out the hypocrisy of it, because when this first showed up as the infamous sidebar during the initial launch of D&D 5E it was ham-fisted and failed to acknowledge that gamers have been "woke" for years without crowing about it. Feel free to go back and find my posts here about that. Just because you Virtue Signal, doesn't mean that the particular virtue you are signalling was not already present - it just means that the Virtue Signaller thinks that they are special for reinventing the wheel.

I've been playing TTRPGs for a long, long time. Not as long as some people here, but since the 80s. The idea that gaming was already oh so inclusive for all these years is frankly bullshit. Some home games, sure. Every persons home game has been its own experience, and always will be. Maybe your home game has always been inclusive, and if that is the case CONGRATULATIONS THAT IS FUCKING GREAT.

But to act like the entire industry has always been super inclusive, to act like it was some special part of society that somehow managed to figure shit out before everyone else did, fucking bull, shit.

Hell, society hasn't even figured that shit out yet. I live in a country that elected a man president who literally talked about grabbing women by the pussy without consent. Your belief that roleplayers somehow have always been more enlightened is beyond absurd.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042060I've been playing TTRPGs for a long, long time. Not as long as some people here, but since the 80s. The idea that gaming was already oh so inclusive for all these years is frankly bullshit. Some home games, sure. Every persons home game has been its own experience, and always will be. Maybe your home game has always been inclusive, and if that is the case CONGRATULATIONS THAT IS FUCKING GREAT.

But to act like the entire industry has always been super inclusive, to act like it was some special part of society that somehow managed to figure shit out before everyone else did, fucking bull, shit.

Hell, society hasn't even figured that shit out yet. I live in a country that elected a man who literally talked about grabbing women by the pussy without consent. Your belief that roleplayers somehow have always been more enlightened is beyond absurd.

Somehow I think that this argument of yours is less about the TTRPG hobby or industry and more about your dislike of our current president. Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042060I've been playing TTRPGs for a long, long time. Not as long as some people here, but since the 80s. The idea that gaming was already oh so inclusive for all these years is frankly bullshit. Some home games, sure. Every persons home game has been its own experience, and always will be. Maybe your home game has always been inclusive, and if that is the case CONGRATULATIONS THAT IS FUCKING GREAT.

But to act like the entire industry has always been super inclusive, to act like it was some special part of society that somehow managed to figure shit out before everyone else did, fucking bull, shit.

Hell, society hasn't even figured that shit out yet. I live in a country that elected a man president who literally talked about grabbing women by the pussy without consent. Your belief that roleplayers somehow have always been more enlightened is beyond absurd.

It isn't the gaming industry's mission to be "super inclusive"

It is to make money, and entertain people while doing it

The idea that some RPG publisher needs to put man-boy-love into the latest rule book, or transexuals into Castle Greyhawk, simply because some people demanded it, is absurd.

Likewise, Evangelical Christians shouldn't dictate what gets put into the next Dungeon Masters Guide either.

Unless, of course, the RPG industry wants to go the way of the comic book publishers. Marvel continues to gender swap its heroes, replace iconic characters with teenagers of every conceivable minority group, etc., while watching its sales go down 80% from where they were decades ago. Being "inclusive" doesn't translate into sales.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042060I've been playing TTRPGs for a long, long time. Not as long as some people here, but since the 80s. The idea that gaming was already oh so inclusive for all these years is frankly bullshit. Some home games, sure. Every persons home game has been its own experience, and always will be. Maybe your home game has always been inclusive, and if that is the case CONGRATULATIONS THAT IS FUCKING GREAT.

But to act like the entire industry has always been super inclusive, to act like it was some special part of society that somehow managed to figure shit out before everyone else did, fucking bull, shit.

Hell, society hasn't even figured that shit out yet. I live in a country that elected a man president who literally talked about grabbing women by the pussy without consent. Your belief that roleplayers somehow have always been more enlightened is beyond absurd.

Horseshit right back. The hobby has always been inclusive, before the idea of inclusion became the progressive beat stick. And I'm pretty sure Trump wasn't the cause. Tossing him in there is a pointless distraction from you not having any evidence for your assertation.

You aren't the first male to think he's the special one who's different from all the mean, unenlightened, cavemen.

Quote from: jeff37923;1042061Somehow I think that this argument of yours is less about the TTRPG hobby or industry and more about your dislike of our current president. Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Or, or maybe, let's just go with the actual argument I was making: The RPG field is not some magically immune part of society that is completely different from the rest of the world, and I was pointing out that the rest of the world isn't that great.

But sure man. I came to this site, specifically to bitch at people because Trump is president, despite him having been president now for a year and a half, and only just mentioned him for the first time probably several dozen posts in as an example of society being kind of fucked on the inclusitivity thing, and not because I was about to start a new campaign for the first time in a long while and wanted to talk about D&D, and instead get met with the same old same old bullshit about how bad it is that someone got LGBT in their elf-games.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1042065Horseshit right back. The hobby has always been inclusive, before the idea of inclusion became the progressive beat stick. And I'm pretty sure Trump wasn't the cause. Tossing him in there is a pointless distraction from you not having any evidence for your assertation.

You aren't the first male to think he's the special one who's different from all the mean, unenlightened, cavemen.

Didn't a designer just recently get accused of harassment by multiple, separate women who had no connection to one another? But sure. No. The RPG community is so enlightened. It is clearly a utopia. If only the rest of society could learn from us. Then maybe we could get down to some really important issues, like how 4e D&D is complete trash and anyone who plays it is wrong at roleplaying.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042066Or, or maybe, let's just go with the actual argument I was making: The RPG field is not some magically immune part of society that is completely different from the rest of the world, and I was pointing out that the rest of the world isn't that great.

But sure man. I came to this site, specifically to bitch at people because Trump is president, despite him having been president now for a year and a half, and only just mentioned him for the first time probably several dozen posts in as an example of society being kind of fucked on the inclusitivity thing, and not because I was about to start a new campaign for the first time in a long while and wanted to talk about D&D, and instead get met with the same old same old bullshit about how bad it is that someone got LGBT in their elf-games.

There's literally none of that in this thread. At all.

It's almost like all the things people were complaining about in this thread have manifested themselves into your responses.

Quote from: Brad;1042069There's literally none of that in this thread. At all.

It's almost like all the things people were complaining about in this thread have manifested themselves into your responses.

I was referring to the Mordenkainen's Elves thread, or the The Insipid Racism of D&D SJWs Thread.

I brought it up in this thread because I thought it was hilarious that anyone acted like they were baffled that someone would accuse places like this of being alt-right. (which, as I said, I don't think that there are a ton of alt-right people on the forum, but I do think there is a vocal minority of people who get really upset about anything inclusive)

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042067Didn't a designer just recently get accused of harassment by multiple, separate women who had no connection to one another? But sure. No. The RPG community is so enlightened. It is clearly a utopia. If only the rest of society could learn from us. Then maybe we could get down to some really important issues, like how 4e D&D is complete trash and anyone who plays it is wrong at roleplaying.

I nowhere said that the hobby and industry are a spotless, shiny, utopia. Individual people are going to have issues.
So, did you want to provide any evidence for your statements that the hobby and industry had a problem with inclusivity? Or shall we dance some more?

Quote from: Silas1066;1042051He is just some pagan dude with strange opinions living in the woods ...
.

Why do his opinions live in the woods?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1042073Why do his opinions live in the woods?

sorry for the forgotten comma

Do I have to go back to your posts and look for split infinitives, dangling participles, and awkward syntactical constructions? Or can we post here without extensive proof-reading?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1042073Why do his opinions live in the woods?

Avoiding the Idea Revenue Service.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1042072I nowhere said that the hobby and industry are a spotless, shiny, utopia. Individual people are going to have issues.
So, did you want to provide any evidence for your statements that the hobby and industry had a problem with inclusivity? Or shall we dance some more?

Ok, why are there so few women designers. Hell, why are there so few designers who aren't white. I mean yes, it takes time for things to change, but if it was so inclusive from all the way back in the 70s, then why are there still so few NOW.

Why are there so few LGBT designers. Literally I can think of 1 (Steve Kenson).

You mean to tell me that tabletop rpgs were always super inclusive, all the way back to the 70s, but if that was so, why is it all the women, ethic, or sexual minorities involved in it never wanted to be designers? Why are they predominately designed by straight white men, with a few exceptions like Laura Hickman, Shanna Germain, Steve Kenson, Mike Pondsmith, etc.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1042046So, your response to some foaming-at-the-mouth web piece about the alt-right is to to be upset about WOC having inclusive images and language? That would not make sense in any situation, but especially makes no sense because WOC didn't accuse you of anything. You are basically making the 'SJW's' point for them.

You literally make no sense right now. But you do you!

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042078Ok, why are there so few women designers. Hell, why are there so few designers who aren't white. I mean yes, it takes time for things to change, but if it was so inclusive from all the way back in the 70s, then why are there still so few NOW.

Why are there so few LGBT designers. Literally I can think of 1 (Steve Kenson).

You mean to tell me that tabletop rpgs were always super inclusive, all the way back to the 70s, but if that was so, why is it all the women, ethic, or sexual minorities involved in it never wanted to be designers? Why are they predominately designed by straight white men, with a few exceptions like Laura Hickman, Shanna Germain, Steve Kenson, Mike Pondsmith, etc.

This is a joke post meant to satirize the entire position, right?

Quote from: Silas1066;1042076sorry for the forgotten comma

Do I have to go back to your posts and look for split infinitives, dangling participles, and awkward syntactical constructions? Or can we post here without extensive proof-reading?

To quote one of my Seminary classmates, "You just can't resist a dangling participle, can you."

It amuses me.

Quote from: Silas1066;1042051Varg isn't even Alt-Right. He is just some pagan dude with strange opinions living in the woods ...

AFAIK Varg is pally with some Alt-Right figures in Sweden such as The Golden One and the guy who does the Survive the Jive archaeo-history channel on Youtube, which I sometimes watch - neither are Nazis, but they are both Identitarian. AFAICT Varg's views are more extreme than theirs, and his past actions (chuch burnings, murder of Satanist fellow band member) certainly are! But apparently his game isn't OSR. Not that it would say anything if it was - anyone can make a game.

Actual members of the OSR publishing community like Raggi and Zak S are obviously not Alt-Right at all. Our host Pundit is pretty Alt Lite, being a Trump supporting classical Liberal who likes Milo - I guess he must be a member of the RPG Dark Web!! :eek:

BTW I just less than half an hour ago ran an OSR game, White Star for a bunch of nice young folks at least some of whom work at The Guardian, and they seemed fine with it despite its frequent use of archaic cis-gendered terms like Men. I got a lot of thanks and promises to come back next week for more old-school RPG goodness. :)

Quote from: Brad;1042081This is a joke post meant to satirize the entire position, right?

It's a serious question. If all these people were always welcomed with open arms, and never faced any discrimination in the hobby or industry, why did so few of them ever go on to design games?

People in this thread are literally saying that the entire RPG Industry has somehow magically avoided discrimination of any kind, despite sexism, racism, and homophobia existing throughout society. That is a statement so absurd that I can't even imagine how anyone would believe it.

Other than the standard SJW assumption that anyone who doesn't agree with them is therefore a bad person, they also make the assumption that there is an opposing force to whatever they believe in - therefore if you are a pro inclusive game designer, there must be those who are your rabid opposites that are applying an opposing force. Otherwise, why hasn't the entire industry moved in the SJW direction?

Quote from: jeff37923;1042057So, you are just trolling here. Good to know. I can stop trying to act like you are intellectually honest then.

Wish I had actually taken the implied advice here.

I appreciate how any question that you don't have an answer for you just accuse me of trolling. And you accuse me of intellectual dishonesty. :rolleyes:

If the hobby has always been completely 100% welcoming to everyone, why do so few people go on to want to design their own games outside of a certain subset?

Quote from: Lynn;1042086Other than the standard SJW assumption that anyone who doesn't agree with them is therefore a bad person, they also make the assumption that there is an opposing force to whatever they believe in - therefore if you are a pro inclusive game designer, there must be those who are your rabid opposites that are applying an opposing force. Otherwise, why hasn't the entire industry moved in the SJW direction?

Here is the other question though: If everyone was already so inclusive, why do pro inclusive game designers bother anyone?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042078Ok, why are there so few women designers. Hell, why are there so few designers who aren't white. I mean yes, it takes time for things to change, but if it was so inclusive from all the way back in the 70s, then why are there still so few NOW.

Why are there so few LGBT designers. Literally I can think of 1 (Steve Kenson).

You mean to tell me that tabletop rpgs were always super inclusive, all the way back to the 70s, but if that was so, why is it all the women, ethic, or sexual minorities involved in it never wanted to be designers? Why are they predominately designed by straight white men, with a few exceptions like Laura Hickman, Shanna Germain, Steve Kenson, Mike Pondsmith, etc.

Dancing it is. It seems you are using demographics as evidence. If these groups of people were not/are not included in the hobby, (except for a few cases you mention) then why? What specifically happened to exclude them?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042085It's a serious question. If all these people were always welcomed with open arms, and never faced any discrimination in the hobby or industry, why did so few of them ever go on to design games?

People in this thread are literally saying that the entire RPG Industry has somehow magically avoided discrimination of any kind, despite sexism, racism, and homophobia existing throughout society. That is a statement so absurd that I can't even imagine how anyone would believe it.

No one is literally saying that. Hyperbole will not help you make your point. Your continued attempts to mischaracterize responses are getting tiresome.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042089Here is the other question though: If everyone was already so inclusive, why do pro inclusive game designers bother anyone?

They were targeting their games at the existing market as they perceived it. There is nothing inclusive or non-inclusive about that.

As these games are games of the imagination, there are games that lend themselves to certain types of play based on their theme. But those themed game designs target their existing user base.

Inclusivity is a recent, progressive social and political concept which not only answers a question nobody was previously asking, but assumes that all others agree that it is question that needed to be asked, and not to ask it makes you a bad person. That is a disagreeable characterization.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1042092Dancing it is. It seems you are using demographics as evidence. If these groups of people were not/are not included in the hobby, (except for a few cases you mention) then why? What specifically happened to exclude them?

You know, there is a reason I started playing exclusively with people who I recruited into the hobby: Almost every public game I went to was gross. From the way they talked, it was pretty clear that if they knew I was bi, they would have not approved. And I felt bad for people who couldn't pass as something other than what they are who had to deal with them.

Hell, less than a year ago I went to a hobby shop with my wife with me, and the person manning the counter exclusively talked to me, despite the fact that we were both standing there, and both looking at books on the shelves. Even when she joined the conversation about one of the games we were talking about, he still directed every comment towards me.

You can all pretend that there is this magic barrier around the hobby that protected it from all the racism, sexism, and homophobia of the world, but as someone who lived through it as a sexual minority: That isn't the fucking case.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042043Why is she not wearing pants?

According to the artist she is wearing pants. But I guess we see what we want to see.

Quote from: mightybrain;1042096According to the artist she is wearing pants. But I guess we see what we want to see.

1. You can literally see her kneecap.
2. The lines drawn seem to indicate muscle, not cloth.

I guarantee that 99% of people shown that image would assume she isn't wearing pants.

(And again, I'm not commenting on whether it is sexist or not, only that holy hell that art is... something)

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042095You know, there is a reason I started playing exclusively with people who I recruited into the hobby: Almost every public game I went to was gross. From the way they talked, it was pretty clear that if they knew I was bi, they would have not approved. And I felt bad for people who couldn't pass as something other than what they are who had to deal with them.

Hell, less than a year ago I went to a hobby shop with my wife with me, and the person manning the counter exclusively talked to me, despite the fact that we were both standing there, and both looking at books on the shelves. Even when she joined the conversation about one of the games we were talking about, he still directed every comment towards me.

I appreciate your personal experiences. Do you have any evidence that the rest of the hobby was similar, on a scale that affected the demographics of the hobby? Specific examples please.

QuoteYou can all pretend that there is this magic barrier around the hobby that protected it from all the racism, sexism, and homophobia of the world, but as someone who lived through it as a sexual minority: That isn't the fucking case.

No one is saying that. I have tried to refrain from putting words in your mouth, why do you insist on putting yours into mine?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042095You know, there is a reason I started playing exclusively with people who I recruited into the hobby: Almost every public game I went to was gross. From the way they talked, it was pretty clear that if they knew I was bi, they would have not approved. And I felt bad for people who couldn't pass as something other than what they are who had to deal with them.

Hell, less than a year ago I went to a hobby shop with my wife with me, and the person manning the counter exclusively talked to me, despite the fact that we were both standing there, and both looking at books on the shelves. Even when she joined the conversation about one of the games we were talking about, he still directed every comment towards me.

You can all pretend that there is this magic barrier around the hobby that protected it from all the racism, sexism, and homophobia of the world, but as someone who lived through it as a sexual minority: That isn't the fucking case.

I went with my girlfriend to a crafts store as she was looking for some vinyl. They all but exclusively talked to her. DOWN WITH THE MATRIARCHY!

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042078Ok, why are there so few women designers. Hell, why are there so few designers who aren't white. I mean yes, it takes time for things to change, but if it was so inclusive from all the way back in the 70s, then why are there still so few NOW.

Why are there so few LGBT designers. Literally I can think of 1 (Steve Kenson).

You mean to tell me that tabletop rpgs were always super inclusive, all the way back to the 70s, but if that was so, why is it all the women, ethic, or sexual minorities involved in it never wanted to be designers? Why are they predominately designed by straight white men, with a few exceptions like Laura Hickman, Shanna Germain, Steve Kenson, Mike Pondsmith, etc.

What's up with the lack of male teachers for pre-schools? DOWN WITH THE MATRIARCHY.

Or do you selectively apply demographics to a group's make-up?

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1042098I appreciate your personal experiences. Do you have any evidence that the rest of the hobby was similar, on a scale that affected the demographics of the hobby? Specific examples please.



No one is saying that. I have tried to refrain from putting words in your mouth, why do you insist on putting yours into mine?

Curiosity: Why is my claim that the RPG hobby was not different from the rest of society need more proof than your claim that it was? What exactly do you have to back up your claims other than anecdotes: The same evidence I have.

You keep claiming that the RPG Hobby was already inclusive. Why do you require me to have proof, but you don't require any?

Quote from: mightybrain;1042096According to the artist she is wearing pants. But I guess we see what we want to see.

(https://78.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7n81s0COn1qktgsyo1_500.jpg)

Anybody remember the Naussica pants thing?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042043... Why does her armor have nipples? Where is her waist? Why is she not wearing pants?

Like, I'm not even asking these questions saying it is sexist, I'm just saying holy hell what is that.

You want to say it's sexist, but you know passive-aggressive.

Anyway check out these sexist nipples!
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Quote from: Ras Algethi;1042099I went with my girlfriend to a crafts store as she was looking for some vinyl. They all but exclusively talked to her. DOWN WITH THE MATRIARCHY!

Were you actively browsing things as well, or were you standing to the side? Did you attempt to engage in the conversation?

And actually i would say that there are hobbies that even more one sided towards women that have the same problem in the opposite direction. Men definitely get judged harshly for wanting to participate in a traditionally female hobbies and jobs, and that does suck and is a problem. Men shouldn't be treated as less of a man because they want to knit, or because they are a nurse. (Since my mother worked in the nursing field, I have known quite a few male nurses. They do get shit for it. A lot. And that is shitty).

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042102Curiosity: Why is my claim that the RPG hobby was not different from the rest of society need more proof than your claim that it was? What exactly do you have to back up your claims other than anecdotes: The same evidence I have.

You keep claiming that the RPG Hobby was already inclusive. Why do you require me to have proof, but you don't require any?

For the simple reason that your claim came first.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042060I've been playing TTRPGs for a long, long time. Not as long as some people here, but since the 80s. The idea that gaming was already oh so inclusive for all these years is frankly bullshit. Some home games, sure. Every persons home game has been its own experience, and always will be. Maybe your home game has always been inclusive, and if that is the case CONGRATULATIONS THAT IS FUCKING GREAT.

But to act like the entire industry has always been super inclusive, to act like it was some special part of society that somehow managed to figure shit out before everyone else did, fucking bull, shit.

Hell, society hasn't even figured that shit out yet. I live in a country that elected a man president who literally talked about grabbing women by the pussy without consent. Your belief that roleplayers somehow have always been more enlightened is beyond absurd.

I'd just like you to back up your assertation, without appealing to vague generalities or side-topics. Then we can proceed, and I'd be happy to respond to your follow up questions.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042107Were you actively browsing things as well, or were you standing to the side? Did you attempt to engage in the conversation?

I wanted to be treated as human being, is that to much to ask?


/sarcasamoff

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042066Or, or maybe, let's just go with the actual argument I was making: The RPG field is not some magically immune part of society that is completely different from the rest of the world, and I was pointing out that the rest of the world isn't that great.

But sure man. I came to this site, specifically to bitch at people because Trump is president, despite him having been president now for a year and a half, and only just mentioned him for the first time probably several dozen posts in as an example of society being kind of fucked on the inclusitivity thing, and not because I was about to start a new campaign for the first time in a long while and wanted to talk about D&D, and instead get met with the same old same old bullshit about how bad it is that someone got LGBT in their elf-games.

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Quote from: Ratman_tf;1042109For the simple reason that your claim came first.



I'd just like you to back up your assertation, without appealing to vague generalities or side-topics. Then we can proceed, and I'd be happy to respond to your follow up questions.

But my claim didn't come first, that was a response to another poster, who was saying that the RPG hobby was already inclusive and had always been. Why not ask him to prove his case, as his claim came first? If you are so interested in people backing up their arguments with peer reviewed research, why not question Jeff about it?

Also, my argument is that if you come on forums to bitch about inclusivity being present in D&D, you are a bigot. Which doesn't actually rely on the argument that the hobby itself is discriminatory. On the other hand "The reason we are pissed is because it was already inclusive" is an argument that relies on the idea that the hobby itself was never discriminatory. His argument hinges entirely on his assertion. Mine does not.

Quote from: Gabriel2;1041969Deities and Demigods 1980, page 106
"Corellon is alternately male and female, both or neither."

Great. Thanks for pointing that out. Oddly it doesnt seem to have carried over to 2e? As noted there wasnt a peep of that in the CBoE. Nor 2e L&L. (Which does not have any elven or other D&D fantasy gods listed). What about 3e?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042112But my claim didn't come first, that was a response to another poster, who was saying that the RPG hobby was already inclusive and had always been. Why not ask him to prove his case, as his claim came first? If you are so interested in people backing up their arguments with peer reviewed research, why not question Jeff about it?

Because I do not disagree with his post. I'm interested if you have evidence to back up your response, or if it's just an opinion.

Is Jimmy from the "Trapped in the Birdcage" game on D&D's twitch actually gay?  Planescape was always slightly more LGBTQ friendly than bog standard D&D but it never really over emphasized sexuality either (hard not to when trying to talk about Aphrodite's realm).  Holly has made some downright hilarious LGBTQ situations for the player (I liked him trying to pick up Cyphers at the Gymnasium).

Is there any evidence that individual tables can't come up with whatever they think is cool?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042078Ok, why are there so few women designers. Hell, why are there so few designers who aren't white. I mean yes, it takes time for things to change, but if it was so inclusive from all the way back in the 70s, then why are there still so few NOW.

Why are there so few LGBT designers. Literally I can think of 1 (Steve Kenson).

You mean to tell me that tabletop rpgs were always super inclusive, all the way back to the 70s, but if that was so, why is it all the women, ethic, or sexual minorities involved in it never wanted to be designers? Why are they predominately designed by straight white men, with a few exceptions like Laura Hickman, Shanna Germain, Steve Kenson, Mike Pondsmith, etc.

That's a good question. Why is the rpg scene dominated by straight, white men?  Except for all of the designers who aren't. Naturally. Especially in this day and age of pdfs and crowd sourcing?

Is it a lack of desire? Ability?

Or is that making your own original product requires hard work and it's just easier to inject yourself into someone else's work?

Quote from: Krimson;1042029Someone had to hire her.

She wasnt hired so much as handed the reigns of the company in a forced takeover which she for a while at least did actually pull out of the red. But then started using the company to line her own pockets rather than help the company. And one of the Blumes was driving things deeper into the hole.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1042117That's a good question. Why is the rpg scene dominated by straight, white men?  Except for all of the designers who aren't. Naturally. Especially in this day and age of pdfs and crowd sourcing?

Is it a lack of desire? Ability?

Or is that making your own original product requires hard work and it's just easier to inject yourself into someone else's work?

The number has increased, but if you think that the amount is anywhere near proportional that is just laughable

Also, here is a little hint: People who get into designing something, tend to do it because they've been into the hobby for a while. Most people who are into the hobby for a long time, are straight white men. Yes, other people were in the hobby too (I have been in the hobby for years myself, but in my experience, I was the exception. And at least I had the advantage of being a bisexual white man, meaning it was easy for me to pass). But the largest percent, even proportionally, where straight white men.

My own personal home groups have been very diverse, because I tended to recruit from friends, not just existing RPG players. And many times women who joined our games were happy because they'd tried D&D before because it sounded fun and had really bad experiences.

So the reason there aren't as many now: They didn't feel welcome in the hobby 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago. One person in one of the online games I'm playing with mentioned how she doesn't play in person now, and sticks to people from livejournal style RP groups because of the experiences she has had LATELY. And when you don't feel welcome just playing the game, you sure as hell don't design a game.

Yeah, its all fucking anecdotal. But when you hear it over, and over, and fucking over again, Maybe, just maybe, they aren't all lying.

Those evil cisgendered white men.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042078Ok, why are there so few women designers. Hell, why are there so few designers who aren't white. I mean yes, it takes time for things to change, but if it was so inclusive from all the way back in the 70s, then why are there still so few NOW.

Why are there so few LGBT designers. Literally I can think of 1 (Steve Kenson).

You mean to tell me that tabletop rpgs were always super inclusive, all the way back to the 70s, but if that was so, why is it all the women, ethic, or sexual minorities involved in it never wanted to be designers? Why are they predominately designed by straight white men, with a few exceptions like Laura Hickman, Shanna Germain, Steve Kenson, Mike Pondsmith, etc.

Well first you have to establish that what you say is true. Maybe it is for D&D, but I really doubt you surveyed all RPG material including those in different languages. Nor did you confirm that potentially female authors weren't using Pen Names.

Then if you look at overall societal trends, the tools that contribute to good RPG design weren't as accessible to certain groups and those barriers had nothing to do with the RPG hobby as a whole.    

But if you are really asking, "Why does WotC not hire more X?", then I can't answer that because I don't like that publisher or what they put out. Excluding Pathfinder (when playing not GMing), my favorite version of D&D is the RC version of BECMI (beating out 3.5).

Quote from: Omega;1042114Great. Thanks for pointing that out. Oddly it doesnt seem to have carried over to 2e? As noted there wasnt a peep of that in the CBoE. Nor 2e L&L. (Which does not have any elven or other D&D fantasy gods listed).

   2E put the demihuman and humanoid deities into DMGR4 Monster Mythology, which states the following

Quote from: DMGR4 Monster Mythology, p. 18, "Gods of the Elves"Elven deities are unusual in being able to manifest as beings of either sex, and having distinctly androgynous qualities. They are, however, almost always represented in art and myth as having a definitely preferred gender form; thus, Hanali and Sehanine almost always choose female form while Labelas is usually male. Corellon, while being male, is always represented as having a strikingly androgynous beauty (as befits a Creator [sic], incorporating male and female principles).

Quote from: DMGR4 Monster Mythology, p. 21, "Corellon Larethian"Corellon Larethian is the embodiment of the highest ideals of elvenkind. "He" is the Creator of the elven race; as with all the elven gods, he can assume the form of either sex, but usually appears as a male, and is usually revered in this form.

Ok, because I'm sure that people are just going to assume this is a troll question, let me assure you this is a legitimate question, because if there are any I'd love to check their work out:

Are there any female OSR designers?

I would agree with the assertion that the tabletop rpg hobby has been traditionally been more inclusive than its surrounding culture. I've definitely met some bigots in this hobby (IRL and online), but I've met more people who were accepting of the atypical inside the hobby than out in the past. The majority of the problem people were just the ones with no social skills or hygiene standards.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042130Ok, because I'm sure that people are just going to assume this is a troll question, let me assure you this is a legitimate question, because if there are any I'd love to check their work out:

Are there any female OSR designers?

I'm not sure if there are or not. I would be interested in seeing a woman's take on the OSR, and I'm not even an SJW.

And ignore Ras Algethi, he's just some lame /pol/ reject who gets butthurt when anyone expresses an opinion that is even slightly to the Left of Jack Chick or Mussolini.

Me and him should just fuck and get it over with, it may help with his impotent rage a bit.

(You might enjoy it, Ras. You are clearly a homophobe and you know what they say about homophobes!)

I am so sorry that people are so hostile to you. You're just asking a few legitimate questions, and they're acting like RPG.net is attacking or something.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042097I guarantee that 99% of people shown that image would assume she isn't wearing pants.

And 99% of people can't be wrong?

https://comments.deviantart.com/1/322587897/2797391250

Quote from: mightybrain;1042137And 99% of people can't be wrong?

https://comments.deviantart.com/1/322587897/2797391250

To be fair, even the artist wasn't entirely sure. "Yes, I think so."

And even in that case, I will revise my statement: Why is she drawn like she isn't wearing pants?

The question about the existence of female OSR designers is a good one. And I'd extend it by asking what fraction are (so the issue isn't 'disproven' when someone digs up a singular example). The reason it is the right question is that it cuts through all the posturing and ad hominem arguments by looking for a single fact that we should suspect would be quite telling.

If the answer is, as I suspect, something less than 10 %, then we need to figure out why women won't participate in the OSR deeply enough to show up as designers The suggestion above that it has something to do with 'ability' is absurd; these games are widely available, basically free, and it is very well established that any moron can figure them out.

The suggestion that it is 'interest' just begs the question: why would women not be interested in the OSR? Plenty play 5E, computer RPGs and generally participate in 'nerd' culture. Why would they not find their way into our community with enough involvement to show up as designers?

I'm not sure what the answer is, but I am sure one factor is that a small but vocal slice of the online OSR community is palpably hostile to any manifestation of diversity. This sort of attitude is sprinkled across every page of this long thread, and crops up in many other threads. Basically, we have ass holes in our midst, they shoot their mouths off a lot, and I can't think of a good reason why women would hang around to read the sneering crap these guys spew.

One of the most valuable of the original D&D modules was designed by Jean Wells. It's an interesting story. It's particularly valuable now because it was the only one to be recalled; ostensibly for its sexist content.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1042141we need to figure out why women won't participate in the OSR deeply enough to show up as designers

Could it be that they don't want to become a target of the extreme left.

Quote from: mightybrain;1042144Could it be that they don't want to become a target of the extreme left.

That is a surreal suggestion.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042112But my claim didn't come first, that was a response to another poster, who was saying that the RPG hobby was already inclusive and had always been. Why not ask him to prove his case, as his claim came first? If you are so interested in people backing up their arguments with peer reviewed research, why not question Jeff about it?

Because he knows that I would answer honestly and not dance around the subject.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1042145That is a surreal suggestion.

I literally have no idea how to even respond to it.

Quote from: mightybrain;1042142One of the most valuable of the original D&D modules was designed by Jean Wells. It's an interesting story. It's particularly valuable now because it was the only one to be recalled; ostensibly for its sexist content.

This (https://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/modpages/b3.html) article seems to go into detail about it, but I have no idea as to its accuracy. Seems like it was recalled due to a few pictures putting dirty thoughts in one of the boss's heads more than any sexist content in the module itself.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1042141I'm not sure what the answer is, but I am sure one factor is that a small but vocal slice of the online OSR community is palpably hostile to any manifestation of diversity. This sort of attitude is sprinkled across every page of this long thread, and crops up in many other threads. Basically, we have ass holes in our midst, they shoot their mouths off a lot, and I can't think of a good reason why women would hang around to read the sneering crap these guys spew.

I would posit that this is part of it. I would posit another part is that there aren't as many women who have a nostalgia for the "good ole days" of TSR D&D, because for them they weren't the good ole days.

I can't prove that of course. But the idea that the seeming complete lack of women designing in the OSR does seem like something a little hard to just push under the rug as saying nothing.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1042133I am so sorry that people are so hostile to you. You're just asking a few legitimate questions, and they're acting like RPG.net is attacking or something.

No, he's creating outlandish scenarios and asking ridiculous questions to PROVE how oppressed he, and everyone who isn't a straight white male, is, by a game about elves. You're even worse because you don't even attempt to make an argument, just say stupid bullshit that adds nothing to the conversation.

This thread has seemed to run its course as it's pretty obvious any reasonable discussion about the subject went out the window...as much as I dislike John Kim*, at least he has a position and defends it honestly.

EDIT: *His political views. He actually seems like a decent guy, and I've used his rpg resources for a long time.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042149I would posit that this is part of it. I would posit another part is that there aren't as many women who have a nostalgia for the "good ole days" of TSR D&D, because for them they weren't the good ole days.

I can't prove that of course. But the idea that the seeming complete lack of women designing in the OSR does seem like something a little hard to just push under the rug as saying nothing.

Right, it's like, 'I wonder why women don't write RPG's based on being one of the secretaries in Mad Men?'

The fact that women and minorities haven't always felt welcome in the hobby is an "outlandish scenario"?

Strange that I've heard this from people over and over, and experienced it myself. Good thing the straight white men are here to tell us how it really is, or we would go on with this delusion of our experiences.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042130Ok, because I'm sure that people are just going to assume this is a troll question, let me assure you this is a legitimate question, because if there are any I'd love to check their work out:

Are there any female OSR designers?

I don't know. I only follow a few games that I like, and I certainly don't care what genitals the designers have.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042130Ok, because I'm sure that people are just going to assume this is a troll question, let me assure you this is a legitimate question, because if there are any I'd love to check their work out:

Are there any female OSR designers?

No idea. My involvement in OSR is non-existent.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042153The fact that women and minorities haven't always felt welcome in the hobby is an "outlandish scenario"?

Strange that I've heard this from people over and over, and experienced it myself. Good thing the straight white men are here to tell us how it really is, or we would go on with this delusion of our experiences.

As you've said, it's anecdotal.

I doubt any of us have had only white men at the table, and you assume we're all white and straight.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1042141The question about the existence of female OSR designers is a good one. And I'd extend it by asking what fraction are (so the issue isn't 'disproven' when someone digs up a singular example). The reason it is the right question is that it cuts through all the posturing and ad hominem arguments by looking for a single fact that we should suspect would be quite telling.

If the answer is, as I suspect, something less than 10 %, then we need to figure out why women won't participate in the OSR deeply enough to show up as designers The suggestion above that it has something to do with 'ability' is absurd; these games are widely available, basically free, and it is very well established that any moron can figure them out.

The suggestion that it is 'interest' just begs the question: why would women not be interested in the OSR? Plenty play 5E, computer RPGs and generally participate in 'nerd' culture. Why would they not find their way into our community with enough involvement to show up as designers?

I'm not sure what the answer is, but I am sure one factor is that a small but vocal slice of the online OSR community is palpably hostile to any manifestation of diversity. This sort of attitude is sprinkled across every page of this long thread, and crops up in many other threads. Basically, we have ass holes in our midst, they shoot their mouths off a lot, and I can't think of a good reason why women would hang around to read the sneering crap these guys spew.

I have an alternate hypothesis. RPGs, like many niche hobbies, started out being looked down upon as the interest of social misfits. And people of all kinds tended to avoid it due to lack of interest in pretending to be elves, and the percieved stigma of being a nerd rolling dice and making tables of encounters. As nerd culture has become more mainstream and acceptable, more people, and a more diverse range of them, can participate without being seen as geeks. Or, at least, that being a geek is less of a social stigma.
Why it started with primarily white males, I leave up to conjecture. I imagine it's something like why model railroading was and still is primarily the interest of white males.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1042156As you've said, it's anecdotal.

I doubt any of us have had only white men at the table, and you assume we're all white and straight.

I would put money on this forum being much much more white, straight, and male than the general population.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042153The fact that women and minorities haven't always felt welcome in the hobby is an "outlandish scenario"?

Strange that I've heard this from people over and over, and experienced it myself. Good thing the straight white men are here to tell us how it really is, or we would go on with this delusion of our experiences.

I've gamed with all kinds of people, and never had an issue with sexism or racism or any ism. The worst attitude I've gamed with was a woman who was friends with my brother, and so we socialized a bit outside the game. She would make fun of some of the other players behind their backs.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042162I would put money on this forum being much much more white, straight, and male than the general population.

Shall we compare our identies and see who's higher on the progressive stack?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042162I would put money on this forum being much much more white, straight, and male than the general population.

No doubt.  Nearly all my groups have been very close to 50% female, since I got out of high school.  It was very rare for another male gamer to want to put up with the kind of idiots that virtue signal instead of doing something useful, but occasionally one like me would endure it hoping for a useful nugget.  100% of the ladies find your type insufferable, to the point it drives them off the internet entirely.  There's my anecdote to counter yours.

The 'virtue signaling' argument is basically a logical fallacy and we should all stop blathering about it. Disliking something because of 'virtue signaling' is to say you have nothing to say for or against the substance of an argument, so instead you undermine it by questioning the motives of whoever stated it. This style of argument is the reason why a large fraction of the news media and nearly every online political debate is a glob of useless dreck. So, if you are sneering at representations of diversity in games because of some story you've made up about the reasons why it is being done, you should keep it to yourself.

Also, virtue signalling in this case actually doesn't make sense.

The whole concept of it in signal theory is that we virtue signal the "correct virtues" in order to raise our standing within a group. You'll notice that the virtues I'm expressing here have done the opposite of help me fit in, or raise my standing here. And considering I've not mentioned that I post here anywhere. And I haven't linked it to anyone, there is no one for me to be virtue signalling TO.

Now on the other hand, all the people who are jumping in to make sure everyone knows that they don't agree with me... now, that fits the definition of virtue signalling...

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042169Now on the other hand, all the people who are jumping in to make sure everyone knows that they don't agree with me... now, that fits the definition of virtue signalling...

Or perhaps it fits the definition of an internet discussion forum where people present opinions and other people make arguments for or against those opinions...

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042139And even in that case, I will revise my statement: Why is she drawn like she isn't wearing pants?

Because that's how Jeff Dee draws.

Like classic comic book artists, he draws everyone with skin tight clothes that conform perfectly to the exaggerated musculature underneath. It doesn't matter whether we're talking about the bell bottom jeans he drew in Top Secret, or the mail leggings in D&D, their basic design is the same. The only way to tell the difference is transitions and texture -- you can tell Elric's pants are mail by the fishscale shadows, and you can tell the agents are wearing bell bottoms because they flare out and cover the shoes. But if pants are tucked into boots, and no seam, unusual coloration, or texture is apparent, then there will be no clear visual indicator.

Morgan Ironwolf is wearing a mail hauberk that hangs below her waist, and high boots, so we can't see cuffs or a belt. And her pants aren't black or fishy, so they're not dark or made of mail. So there are no visual cues based on texture, color, pattern, or material. But she's wearing pants, because it's the most parsimonious theory to everyone, except horny teenage boys.

Quote from: Brad;1042175Or perhaps it fits the definition of an internet discussion forum where people present opinions and other people make arguments for or against those opinions...

You know, that was actually what I thought we were doing too, but people kept on bringing up virtue signalling...

I mean, seriously, I make a joke and you take it seriously. Don't worry, I truly believe you think that SJW bullshit is ruining D&D.

Quote from: Pat;1042177Morgan Ironwolf is wearing a mail hauberk that hangs below her waist, and high boots, so we can't see cuffs or a belt. And her pants aren't black or fishy, so they're not dark or made of mail. So there are no visual cues based on texture, color, pattern, or material. But she's wearing pants, because it's the most parsimonious theory to everyone, except horny teenage boys.

Nope.  I don't agree.  Next thing you'll tell me is that Bast's bare boobs are just a really tight shirt.  Dee drew other characters in that same top/boots/bare leg look and colored them so it's just one of his common looks.  

Yes, I'm saying he lied.  I once asked Kevin Long why he drew dinosaur mechs with double barreled dick lasers.  He said he never drew anything with dick lasers.  Artists sometimes lie.

Morgan Ironwolf was drawn to be hot.  Because Moldvay D&D was intended for teenage boys.  There's nothing wrong with that.  She isn't obscene. It isn't any sillier than anything else in the game.

Quote from: Gabriel2;1042181Next thing you'll tell me is that Bast's bare boobs are just a really tight shirt.

You have some serious issues with anatomy.

Quote from: Krimson;1041419Certainly there are many in the OSR who are Conservative,

I did not know there were any conservatives creating product in the OSR. I wish I knew who they were so I could support them. As I see it, you have to hunt long and hard to find a blog that is middle of the road, since almost everything you can find is left wing SJW stuff. The same with forums, they are almost exclusively run by the left wing SJW crowd. I belong to most of the D&D/RPG forums, but my posts are few and far between. I have seen too many people banned for innocuous middle of the road comments. I don't know of any Alt-Right people on a personal level. Everyone I know personally that is conservative believes in equal pay for equal work for women and minorities, is against sexual harassment and have women and minorities in their table top campaigns.

My favorite misconception being brought forth is the belief that gaming was hostile to minorities (POC and GBLT). See while race could be determined by characteristics of the human in person, nobody was asking for people to divulge their gender identities or sexual preferences at the game table and people usually never volunteered that information. I have never heard of anyone ever giving two shits about that. I have heard of people caring whether or not someone was an asshole, but asshole comes in all sorts of shapes and sizes.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1042145That is a surreal suggestion.

Is it? Women get attacked all the time for being conservative.

Heck, we just had a kerfuffle where the president's daughter was verbally berated by the darling of the left, and the president's duaghter is basically a liberal.

Before that, a woman was harassed for posing for her college photo with a gun. Then there was that teenage girl who wore a chinese dress to the prom. Just recently some news organization doxxed a random woman on twitter they deemed a "conservative troll".  There's no shortage of this stuff.

While I probably doubt that's the case here, it's hardly an outlandish suggestion. When a minority (or women) are left (or far left enought), they are considered traitors and attacked.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042130Ok, because I'm sure that people are just going to assume this is a troll question, let me assure you this is a legitimate question, because if there are any I'd love to check their work out:

Are there any female OSR designers?

Not that I know of currently. If you expand out the category some, Stacy Dellaforno is pansexual genderqueer/fluid, and they wrote the adventure Zaya's Promise for Swords & Wizardry, as well as the laying out the 3rd printing of the game. When I look at this list of OSR games, I don't see any typically female names, but there could be some women.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_H0k9fPlaKxARMYB4WLpTJwyNc6oOLwQGUlKUMgs-JU/edit#gid=0

Quote from: LarsdanglyThat is a surreal suggestion.

Quote from: JeremyR;1042195Is it? Women get attacked all the time for being conservative.

I'd be interested to hear from any women that are avoiding the OSR for fear of SJW backlash. I'm not interested in wild speculation that they might exist, though.

Quote from: Gabriel2;1042181Nope.  I don't agree.  Next thing you'll tell me is that Bast's bare boobs are just a really tight shirt.  Dee drew other characters in that same top/boots/bare leg look and colored them so it's just one of his common looks.  

Yes, I'm saying he lied.  I once asked Kevin Long why he drew dinosaur mechs with double barreled dick lasers.  He said he never drew anything with dick lasers.  Artists sometimes lie.

Morgan Ironwolf was drawn to be hot.  Because Moldvay D&D was intended for teenage boys.  There's nothing wrong with that.  She isn't obscene. It isn't any sillier than anything else in the game.

You're an idiot.  Morgan has exactly the kind of texture Pat is talking about on her inner right thigh.  Also the extra shadows on the left knee show some kind of pants going into the boot not to mention the way the left leg is drawn.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042121The number has increased, but if you think that the amount is anywhere near proportional that is just laughable.

Proportional would be one LGBT person of any type for every 24 straight people in the industry. If a company has 10 employees and two of them were LGBT then actual proportional representation of the population would require one or both be fired and replaced with straight people.

Likewise, proportional representation would be two out of every three people in the gaming company being non-hispanic whites and only 1 out of 8 being "Black or African American" (as its categorized in the census). 1 out of 4 needs to have voted for Donald Trump (62M of 235M eligible voters), nearly 5 out of 11 would need to support Trump now (45% in the latest RCP average) and no more than 1 out of 4 would be allowed to have voted for Hillary (2 out of 4 would have to have not voted) in order to proportionately represent the population.

So which Left-leaning employees should lose their jobs at WotC, Onyx Path, Green Ronin, etc. to bring them into line with proportional representation of the population?

Or can we admit that you don't want proportional representation; you want special consideration for certain groups and discrimination against other groups based on their race, sex and sexual orientation.

If that's what you want, go ahead and argue for it... but be honest about it, don't hide behind lies like "proportional representation" when you'd never actually be happy with truly proportional representation.

Quote from: jhkim;1042198Not that I know of currently. If you expand out the category some...

Scrap Princess is an artist rather than an author (Deep Carbon Observatory, Veins of the Earth), but Fire on the Velvet Horizon blurs the difference a tad (it's a monster book with stats based on her art), but women artists in the OSR seem a lot more common than designers. There are also a smattering of written contributions to shorter-form products, like one page dungeons, articles in Fight On!, Secret Santicore responses, and so on. But I'm drawing on a blank on longer-form written works, as well.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042041How exactly is having a rare blessing of Corellon Larethian grant the ability to change gender, or the existence of LGBT characters in adventures, fucking up the game?

It's the bigger picture. It's using this sort of political pandering to impose their larger agenda on gaming, and then to rely on an argument you've relied on here, where anyone who criticizes the bigger agenda is accused of wanting to be mean to trans kids.

As someone said, "Weaponized Compassion".

And note that the LGBT kid who played in my DCC game was quite excited about getting a random mercurial effect where every time they cast magic missile it made their wizard change gender.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042162I would put money on this forum being much much more white, straight, and male than the general population.

White - I think not, lots of east-Asian & Latino posters here.
Straight - no, it only takes a few non-straight to hit general population %s. But I'm sure it's straighter than other RPG boards and likely straighter than the general RPG playing population.
Male - definitely, though this is true of all RPG posting boards.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042089Here is the other question though: If everyone was already so inclusive, why do pro inclusive game designers bother anyone?

That's a bit like saying "If everyone thinks that we should care about the poor, why would Venezuelan Socialism upset anyone? They say they care about the poor, after all!"

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042169Also, virtue signalling in this case actually doesn't make sense.

The whole concept of it in signal theory is that we virtue signal the "correct virtues" in order to raise our standing within a group. You'll notice that the virtues I'm expressing here have done the opposite of help me fit in, or raise my standing here.

Well you could be virtue signalling to raise your status with others who are reading your posts but are not part of the community here, since this is a public forum.

Personally I don't care if you are virtue signalling or not, I think it's irrelevant to your arguments which I'm sure you genuinely believe, misguided though they generally are.  It doesn't seem like a clear case of virtue signalling to me; I agree that usually VS is done in places where there will be no negative feedback to the virtue signaller.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042139To be fair, even the artist wasn't entirely sure. "Yes, I think so."

You are of course free to dismiss the artist's thoughts about it. Just as you are free to imagine a character as naked below the waist if that's how you want see it. But I wouldn't assume that just because you see something means 99% of other people see it the same way. This picture is a bit like a Rorschach test. Personally, I see pants.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2530[/ATTACH]

Jeff Dee loves thighs... and calves. And especially clothing that flares out by the ankles. :) Ooh, and gaunt faces with high cheekbones, and voluminous straight hair! But yeah, totally about the ankle flares and bellbottoms.

This, and Album Rock Cover Art, is why Sword & Sorcery will forever conceptually be in '70s fashion for me. Conan wears fat ties and leisure suits to banquets. :cool:

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042130Ok, because I'm sure that people are just going to assume this is a troll question, let me assure you this is a legitimate question, because if there are any I'd love to check their work out:

Are there any female OSR designers?

Why does there have to be?

No. Really.

Why does there have to be?

Why cant people just do what they want rather than be force to meet some fucked up quota for "equality" rather than quality?

Theres been women designers in gaming since before RPGs even. And theres been women designing modules for D&D fairly early on, not to mention the various artists. Pretty sure theres some in the OSR just as there are in most other venues. There certainly are several women artists in the OSR.

Quote from: Chris24601;1042202Proportional would be one LGBT person of any type for every 24 straight people in the industry. If a company has 10 employees and two of them were LGBT then actual proportional representation of the population would require one or both be fired and replaced with straight people.

Likewise, proportional representation would be two out of every three people in the gaming company being non-hispanic whites and only 1 out of 8 being "Black or African American" (as its categorized in the census). 1 out of 4 needs to have voted for Donald Trump (62M of 235M eligible voters), nearly 5 out of 11 would need to support Trump now (45% in the latest RCP average) and no more than 1 out of 4 would be allowed to have voted for Hillary (2 out of 4 would have to have not voted) in order to proportionately represent the population.

So which Left-leaning employees should lose their jobs at WotC, Onyx Path, Green Ronin, etc. to bring them into line with proportional representation of the population?

Or can we admit that you don't want proportional representation; you want special consideration for certain groups and discrimination against other groups based on their race, sex and sexual orientation.

If that's what you want, go ahead and argue for it... but be honest about it, don't hide behind lies like "proportional representation" when you'd never actually be happy with truly proportional representation.

Yeah : this !

Fucking be honest, people, and not a lying SJW bastard (I'm not talking about you, Emperor Morton. I see your points, although I disagree with many of them, and I deem you sincere in your arguments).

I sincerely believe that, compared to the US population at large, LGBT are sur-represented among the RPG industry.

And I've no problem with that. Heck, I like it ! I like being in contact, and interacting with, people different from me in some capacity (disclaimer: I don't live in the USA, but my argument stands nonetheless)

But when I'm called a bigot - or I see people being called bigot - by ideologues who insist of seeing a problem where there's not, it angers me.

And when it becomes a fixture of forums where I used to enjoy hanging around with fellow-minded gamers - the self-righteousness, the holier-than-thou attitude, the dismissive tone, the tests of ideological purity - it makes me a little bit mad.

And when I see a substantial part of the industry recycling, for whatever fucked-up reason, this inane soup of cultural appropriation, warped inclusivity, whining victimhood complex, gender identity bullshit... it makes me sad, and angry and sick of it all.

So yeah: it feels good to come here and vent a little bit :mad:.

Nonetheless: peace to all human beings, even complete hobby-mangling shit-heads.

Quote from: jhkim;1042198I'd be interested to hear from any women that are avoiding the OSR for fear of SJW backlash. I'm not interested in wild speculation that they might exist, though.

I don't know of any that avoid the OSR in particular because of SJW backlash.  Most of the ones I know wouldn't care for the kind of games typically put out by the OSR, and if they did, would prefer they be filtered with something like my take on it.  I do know plenty that avoid gaming forums in general because they find the more vocal SJW's to be smug pricks.  They got enough of that kind of male in high school.  Though many of the guys feel the same way.

There aren't many SJW's of that type, because even some SJW's have enough tactical sense to not be that bad.  The ones that are around are particularly annoying to my female friends.  In fairness, they'd roll their eyes at many of the OSR personas, including Pundits.  But his type just makes them laugh, not send them away as the place is a waste of time.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042153The fact that women and minorities haven't always felt welcome in the hobby is an "outlandish scenario"?

Strange that I've heard this from people over and over, and experienced it myself. Good thing the straight white men are here to tell us how it really is, or we would go on with this delusion of our experiences.

What sort of thing  has made you feel unwelcome  in the hobby?

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1042219Most of the ones I know wouldn't care for the kind of games typically put out by the OSR

I haven't experienced any difference between male and female players in who likes OSR type games, vs who likes 3e, 4e or 5e. D&D seems generally popular with both sexes in similar ratios across the editions.

Away from D&D, different RPG genres definitely skew more one sex or the other; more female Vampire fans, and more male Traveller or Mechwarrior fans. Hard SF skews more male, soft SF skews more female - and outside RPGs is more popular overall too.

Quote from: S'mon;1042222I haven't experienced any difference between male and female players in who likes OSR type games, vs who likes 3e, 4e or 5e. D&D seems generally popular with both sexes in similar ratios across the editions.

Away from D&D, different RPG genres definitely skew more one sex or the other; more female Vampire fans, and more male Traveller or Mechwarrior fans. Hard SF skews more male, soft SF skews more female - and outside RPGs is more popular overall too.

Right, it's all anecdote.  All of it, including the basis for the SJW complaints.

(previous quotation was about women playing OSR games)

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1042219I don't know of any that avoid the OSR in particular because of SJW backlash.  Most of the ones I know wouldn't care for the kind of games typically put out by the OSR, and if they did, would prefer they be filtered with something like my take on it.

All my players are female and they love the OSR-style modules I've been running (Tales from the Laughing Dragon from BFRPG and the original D&D B series).

They love the OSR approach of "solve the problem how you can". Like any other group sometimes they fight, sometimes they improvise (and cater for the dungeon denizens), and sometimes they burn the bloody house down.

So, I'm not sure what issues you think women have with OSR games.

And I have no idea what you mean by your "take on it", since this is your second post in the thread, and you never describe this.

The rest of the snipped comments from the first paragraph are true of any forum or hobby group, of males or females.

Hah, what an amusing thread. It just keeps on giving.

Quote from: Tod13;1042229So, I'm not sure what issues you think women have with OSR games.

And I have no idea what you mean by your "take on it", since this is your second post in the thread, and you never describe this.

My take on the OSR is irrelevant to the main point of the conversation, which is that the women I know who are gamers find a vocal minority of a certain type of posters on gaming forums to be so annoying as to drive them away from the forums entirely.   Nowhere in that did I claim to speak for women in general, and I explicitly addressed that part in the second post.  I mention the OSR and the qualification only because of the insinuation that what drives women away is somehow special to the OSR, and not the wider gamer "culture" in particular.  

I don't see how you got any of your reply from anything I said.

Quote from: Gabriel2;1042181Nope.  I don't agree.  Next thing you'll tell me is that Bast's bare boobs are just a really tight shirt.  Dee drew other characters in that same top/boots/bare leg look and colored them so it's just one of his common looks.  

Yes, I'm saying he lied.  I once asked Kevin Long why he drew dinosaur mechs with double barreled dick lasers.  He said he never drew anything with dick lasers.  Artists sometimes lie.

Morgan Ironwolf was drawn to be hot.  Because Moldvay D&D was intended for teenage boys.  There's nothing wrong with that.  She isn't obscene. It isn't any sillier than anything else in the game.

Morgan Ironwolf was definitely drawn to be hot. I seriously doubt she was drawn without pants.

Quote from: JeremyR;1042195Is it? Women get attacked all the time for being conservative.

Heck, we just had a kerfuffle where the president's daughter was verbally berated by the darling of the left, and the president's duaghter is basically a liberal.

Before that, a woman was harassed for posing for her college photo with a gun. Then there was that teenage girl who wore a chinese dress to the prom. Just recently some news organization doxxed a random woman on twitter they deemed a "conservative troll".  There's no shortage of this stuff.

While I probably doubt that's the case here, it's hardly an outlandish suggestion. When a minority (or women) are left (or far left enought), they are considered traitors and attacked.

Or the racist way that black conservatives are treated by some so-called progressives.

And if you're talking about the Samantha Bee incident, I'd say "verbally berated" is an understatement. she called Ivanka a cunt, and suggested she sleep with her father in order to influence him on immigration issues.

If I used similar rhetoric about a woman in gaming, I'd rightfully get run out of town on a rail.

Related question: Are there any women who frequent this site? Are any participating in this thread? I saw the posts advertising that several of us have DM'd groups that are 110% female for the last several hundred years, but are there any living women who hang out here and participate in these sorts of discussions?

Quote from: Larsdangly;1042236Related question: Are there any women who frequent this site? Are any participating in this thread? I saw the posts advertising that several of us have DM'd groups that are 110% female for the last several hundred years, but are there any living women who hang out here and participate in these sorts of discussions?

I reject your goal-post shifting, but otherwise refuse to dignify it with a response.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042085It's a serious question. If all these people were always welcomed with open arms, and never faced any discrimination in the hobby or industry, why did so few of them ever go on to design games?

You're making the assumption that all demographic disparities in hobbies are due to oppression and hostility. Do you think romance novels, scrap-booking, handicrafts, and book clubs are exclusionary and hostile and to men?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042085People in this thread are literally saying that the entire RPG Industry has somehow magically avoided discrimination of any kind, despite sexism, racism, and homophobia existing throughout society. That is a statement so absurd that I can't even imagine how anyone would believe it.

No doubt there has historically been some discrimination in RPGs, just as there is in all walks of life. The mistake is assuming that discrimination is responsible for all, or even most, of the disparities.

I'm sure there is some cases of men who were interested in bead-work and scrapbooking feeling uncomfortable when they tried to get involved in the hobby. Does that mean the only reason Michael's stores aren't patronized by a 50/50 gender split is because of hostility to men in hobbycrafts?

I don't think I've come across anyone who identifies as female here.

In general, I've seen that a lot of women tend to avoid rough & tumble forums.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1042240In general, I've seen that a lot of women tend to avoid rough & tumble forums.

This. Men like to argue a lot more than women. Any forum with a lot of arguing will be frequented almost exclusively by men.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1042236Related question: Are there any women who frequent this site? Are any participating in this thread? I saw the posts advertising that several of us have DM'd groups that are 110% female for the last several hundred years, but are there any living women who hang out here and participate in these sorts of discussions?

I am certain that there are women who frequent this site and participate in threads, even this one. All of the women I know personally would not consider going online as a woman, but always adopt a male persona because of the harassment that is typical of most forums. But most forums where you can see the member list and the number of posts, why do you think that a huge number of accounts have 0-5 posts, I would bet that a huge proportion of those are women. A lot of accounts will show no login for years and yet when you look at a forums stats at the bottom of the page, it may show hundreds of visitors or more in a 24 hour period. I would bet that most of those are non posting members that don't bother to login, since they have seen the culture and knowing they are not going to post, why bother logging in. Those "inactive accounts" are the bulk of your forum traffic, IMO.

Any forum that is active has a steady trickle of new accounts that never post, why do they join? They are voting to tell you they like and use the useful stuff on your site, they just avoid the drama parts of the forum and don't post to avoid getting drawn into the drama. When a site prunes the member rolls as most sites do now and then, is there no push back? It is because they never try to login and they never know they have been deleted and it doesn't affect them being able to use the site as they already are.

Quote from: True Black Raven;1042252I am certain that there are women who frequent this site and participate in threads, even this one. All of the women I know personally would not consider going online as a woman, but always adopt a male persona because of the harassment that is typical of most forums. But most forums where you can see the member list and the number of posts, why do you think that a huge number of accounts have 0-5 posts, I would bet that a huge proportion of those are women. A lot of accounts will show no login for years and yet when you look at a forums stats at the bottom of the page, it may show hundreds of visitors or more in a 24 hour period. I would bet that most of those are non posting members that don't bother to login, since they have seen the culture and knowing they are not going to post, why bother logging in. Those "inactive accounts" are the bulk of your forum traffic, IMO.

That's a bold statement. Without their input, we really have no idea who is creating these accounts and why they do not log in. I'd bet a lot are attempted spambot accounts, that never got around to spamming.

Quote from: Haffrung;1042242This. Men like to argue a lot more than women. Any forum with a lot of arguing will be frequented almost exclusively by men.

Honestly, I'd say it is more that women tend to avoid places where they are massively outnumbered and will be told that their experience being a woman is bullshit.

If you think that women don't argue online, you'e never been on Facebook.

Also, I seem to remember there was at least one female poster back when I was here 3 years ago. Can't remember their user name, or even if they were a figment of my imagination.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042095You can all pretend that there is this magic barrier around the hobby that protected it from all the racism, sexism, and homophobia of the world, but as someone who lived through it as a sexual minority: That isn't the fucking case.

Maybe I am misreading the posts of others, but it seems more to me that people are saying the hobby doesn't require any special attention that the world is not already getting.

In addition, they are may also be saying that proportional representation (or increased representation) is irrelevant to the actual play or enjoyment of the game, and they don't appreciate being demonized for not caring about proportional representation.*

I also think most here appreciate feeling discomfort over being singled out as a minority (of some sort), and may have left groups that were uncomfortable for them. What they don't appreciate is being blamed for the misdeeds of others or that they should go out of their way to change their groups. They don't feel as if they need to prove their group fits some external set of criteria.

*I flagged my own point about proportional representation because I believe this really strikes close to the heart of disagreement. Do you really think gaming groups are bad if its members do not care about proportional representation?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042256women ...will be told that their experience being a woman is bullshit.

That sounds more like RPGnet.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1042221What sort of thing  has made you feel unwelcome  in the hobby?

I don't know man, how about being told that inclusion of people like me, my family, or my friends in official D&D product is RUINING D&D? And that anyone in the industry who includes any positive representation of LGBT people in their works is virtue signaling.

Happens less now, but back in the day the reason I stopped even going to public games was because of crude jokes about women and gay people. The thing is, that was just the background radiation of the time period, but I sure as hell didn't want to take it during my hobby time when I could just avoid it and play only with personal friends. And as I said upthread, I have still had completely bizarre experiences to this day like going to a hobby shop and watching the person behind the counter exclusively engage with me despite my wife being right there browsing games, and talking about them to. She literally joined the conversation and he still didn't address anything her direction.

Almost every woman I've ever played with has had stories of issues with the hobby, and usually that is the reason they've pulled back to only home games or online games with people they already know.

I just think it is absurd that we can hear about something so often, and people still refuse to believe that there is any issue, or has been any issue, ever.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042261Almost every woman I've ever played with has had stories of issues with the hobby, and usually that is the reason they've pulled back to only home games or online games with people they already know.

A lot of socially inept people play RPGs, and the socially inept (and those who don't have a home to play in) make up a disproportionate number of participants in public games. Which is why almost every white male I've ever played RPGs with plays exclusively in home games with people they already know. Most of us don't like engaging in our hobbies with socially inept strangers.

Quote from: Lynn;1042258Maybe I am misreading the posts of others, but it seems more to me that people are saying the hobby doesn't require any special attention that the world is not already getting.

In addition, they are may also be saying that proportional representation (or increased representation) is irrelevant to the actual play or enjoyment of the game, and they don't appreciate being demonized for not caring about proportional representation.*

I also think most here appreciate feeling discomfort over being singled out as a minority (of some sort), and may have left groups that were uncomfortable for them. What they don't appreciate is being blamed for the misdeeds of others or that they should go out of their way to change their groups. They don't feel as if they need to prove their group fits some external set of criteria.

*I flagged my own point about proportional representation because I believe this really strikes close to the heart of disagreement. Do you really think gaming groups are bad if its members do not care about proportional representation?

It's not about caring about proportional representation. I think it is bad if a group gets upset about representation, because according to them everything is already perfect. I think it is bad if someone gets upset because a positive trans character is part of an adventure series. I think it is bad if someone gets upset because a Chaotic Good Genderfluid God gives a blessing that let's someone switch genders.

They say "GO MAKE YOUR OWN GAMES THEN" but when these people are making the games they want to make, they get accused of virtue signalling, of pandering. As if the things they are doing don't match the beliefs they have.

Because the truth is: If you take away the idea that what these people are doing is false, what argument do you have left: That you don't want these things in their game. And no one WANTS to be labeled as a bigot. Even bigots. So they have to invent reasons that THEY aren't bigots, even though they don't like this stuff.

And some people, it isn't even about that. It is about having an adversary. This entire site is adversarial. A lot of people are here that left TBP, a place that IS so tumblr that it cracks me up (I've actually have been suspended there for not falling in lockstep over agreement on lynchmobbing someone, I think it was Zak S, who I said wasn't sexist, even if he was an asshole (he still probably remembers me calling him an asshole, guy never forgets anything, probably has me on a list somewhere with all the "liars")), and the truth is that some people get so worked up into the "war" that they have to automatically side on the other side of whatever the opposition believes. You can see this with Pundit, who was a big defender of 5e when it came out, but now that it is accepted over at TBP, he has to be angry about something, so the SJW PANDERING has to be the thing, cause he still likes it mechanically.

The thing is, if someone is describing something you aren't doing, then they AREN'T TALKING ABOUT YOU! I never blamed the whole site for this. I've always said it was a minority that freaks out. What I did say is that when you have this incredibly vocal minority, you can't be surprised that people think you are alt-right.

And then like clockwork people had to come out and defend their right to call things SJW bullshit and virtue signalling. Because they can't argue with the actual inclusion itself without actually appearing as bigots, so they have to attack the motive.

Quote from: Haffrung;1042263A lot of socially inept people play RPGs, and the socially inept (and those who don't have a home to play in) make up a disproportionate number of participants in public games. Which is why almost every white male I've ever played RPGs with plays exclusively in home games with people they already know. Most of us don't like engaging in our hobbies with socially inept strangers.

So what what you are saying is "The hobby is already inclusive! Except the part of the hobby that is most visible and is where a large amount of people would enter the hobby from." Also, as a dude, a socially inept person will bother me, but rarely target me. Yeah, I want to avoid them, but they usually don't actively do anything towards me. I've seen the difference between how men and women get addressed by people who you describe as "socially inept". Women tend to get targeted either because the "socially inept" person is a sexist gatekeeper, or they go the opposite direction and are practically slobbering over her.

So yes, they make me want to avoid the games (and not mention that I'm bi), but they don't do anything specifically creepy or shitty to me.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1042253That's a bold statement. Without their input, we really have no idea who is creating these accounts and why they do not log in. I'd bet a lot are attempted spambot accounts, that never got around to spamming.

One of the places that I mostly lurk (in 14 years I have between 50-100 posts) there are 4240 accounts with zero posts and 2595 accounts with between 1-5 posts. I am fascinated if you think that there are that many spambot accounts and none of them ever got around to doing any spamming. Who has ever seen or heard of a spambot account that did not spam? IMO you would lose that bet.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042264It's SNIP  motive.

I don't really care if someone wants to call me a bigot. I personally will not buy a game that I might play with children or grandchildren or other relatives or friends, that includes anything that is part of the LGBTPQ pedophile culture agenda. I am also not into the whole inclusive thing either. The people I invite into my life are those who are good, moral, decent people. Perverted child molesters, rapists and the rest of the deviant LGBTPQ crowd are not welcome. The is not a bad thing, that is common sense and protecting your family.

Quote from: Lynn;1042258Maybe I am misreading the posts of others, but it seems more to me that people are saying the hobby doesn't require any special attention that the world is not already getting.

In addition, they are may also be saying that proportional representation (or increased representation) is irrelevant to the actual play or enjoyment of the game, and they don't appreciate being demonized for not caring about proportional representation.*

I also think most here appreciate feeling discomfort over being singled out as a minority (of some sort), and may have left groups that were uncomfortable for them. What they don't appreciate is being blamed for the misdeeds of others or that they should go out of their way to change their groups. They don't feel as if they need to prove their group fits some external set of criteria.

*I flagged my own point about proportional representation because I believe this really strikes close to the heart of disagreement. Do you really think gaming groups are bad if its members do not care about proportional representation?

There you go bringing logic to the fight.  What were you thinking? :D

Quote from: True Black Raven;1042271I don't really care if someone wants to call me a bigot. I personally will not buy a game that I might play with children or grandchildren or other relatives or friends, that includes anything that is part of the LGBTPQ pedophile culture agenda. I am also not into the whole inclusive thing either. The people I invite into my life are those who are good, moral, decent people. Perverted child molesters, rapists and the rest of the deviant LGBTPQ crowd are not welcome. The is not a bad thing, that is common sense and protecting your family.

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A group of people I hadn't met before came round to play White Star RPG at my flat yesterday. Two of them are attractive young women.  They told me that on the way here, one of the women had been sexually harrassed on the London Underground; some guy had put his arms around her.

Compared to everyday life, I think RPGs are pretty much a Safe Space for women.  At least for a woman in London or other European cities - maybe US/Cam/Aus/NZ are better. I'm guessing that the kind of place where people freak out about "micro-aggressions" must be a lot safer, unless that's a form of displacement.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042268So what what you are saying is

(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/334/385/2c5.jpg)

Quote from: True Black Raven;1042269One of the places that I mostly lurk (in 14 years I have between 50-100 posts) there are 4240 accounts with zero posts and 2595 accounts with between 1-5 posts. I am fascinated if you think that there are that many spambot accounts and none of them ever got around to doing any spamming. Who has ever seen or heard of a spambot account that did not spam? IMO you would lose that bet.

If it didn't spam, how would you know? Speculating on the motives of unused accounts is futile.

Quote from: True Black Raven;1042271I don't really care if someone wants to call me a bigot. I personally will not buy a game that I might play with children or grandchildren or other relatives or friends, that includes anything that is part of the LGBTPQ pedophile culture agenda. I am also not into the whole inclusive thing either. The people I invite into my life are those who are good, moral, decent people. Perverted child molesters, rapists and the rest of the deviant LGBTPQ crowd are not welcome. The is not a bad thing, that is common sense and protecting your family.

(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/896/884/083.gif)

Quote from: True Black Raven;1042271I don't really care if someone wants to call me a bigot. I personally will not buy a game that I might play with children or grandchildren or other relatives or friends, that includes anything that is part of the LGBTPQ pedophile culture agenda. I am also not into the whole inclusive thing either. The people I invite into my life are those who are good, moral, decent people. Perverted child molesters, rapists and the rest of the deviant LGBTPQ crowd are not welcome. The is not a bad thing, that is common sense and protecting your family.

And there it is folks; a real, live, honest to goodness POS who dropped in to take a homophobic dump on our thread. Luckily you can see from the Join date that this is either a drive-by bigoting, or perhaps a regular member who was smart enough to change their name when typing in 'hate on' mode.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042256Honestly, I'd say it is more that women tend to avoid places where they are massively outnumbered and will be told that their experience being a woman is bullshit.

Now there's a line of BS.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042256If you think that women don't argue online, you'e never been on Facebook.

This is accurate.  The main reason why women likely don't frequent places like this as much is because RPG's are too immature for them to take seriously.  They aren't here, because this is beneath them.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042256Also, I seem to remember there was at least one female poster back when I was here 3 years ago. Can't remember their user name, or even if they were a figment of my imagination.

There are/were probably several.  Outliers and the like.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1042289And there it is folks; a real, live, honest to goodness POS who dropped in to take a homophobic dump on our thread. Luckily you can see from the Join date that this is either a drive-by bigoting, or perhaps a regular member who was smart enough to change their name when typing in 'hate on' mode.

I'd speculate there's at least one joker out there who really wants to conflate criticism of current progressive activisim with the kind of view that Black Raven shared with us.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1042291I'd speculate there's at least one joker out there who really wants to conflate criticism of current progressive activisim with the kind of view that Black Raven shared with us.

I like how even people saying straight out bigoted shit are still somehow blamed on the "SJWs".

To be honest, if you wanted to make a claim that this wasn't sincere, the more obvious answer is that it is just a troll stirring up shit. Which is actually what I assumed when I saw it.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1042221What sort of thing  has made you feel unwelcome  in the hobby?

Probably the preponderance of sane people. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042292I like how even people saying straight out bigoted shit are still somehow blamed on the "SJWs".

Nope. The OP can take full responsibility for his post. My speculations are beside the point.

QuoteTo be honest, if you wanted to make a claim that this wasn't sincere, the more obvious answer is that it is just a troll stirring up shit. Which is actually what I assumed when I saw it.

Who knows.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042292the more obvious answer is that it is just a troll stirring up shit. Which is actually what I assumed when I saw it.

True Black Raven is another sock puppet for Perilous Dreamer/Crimhthan the Great/Llauranela/TGM1975/ETC/ETC/ETC.  That post is a carbon copy of other like posts said person has posted for years on DF and elsewhere.

No one really knows why anyone does anything. Actually, you are lucky if you really understand why you do things yourself. That's why arguments based on the 'appeal to motive' logical fallacy should be ignored.

So, I have no idea WHY 'Black Raven' wandered by to drool homophobic bile. I just know he did it.

Quote from: Omega;1042294Probably the preponderance of sane people. :rolleyes:

And someone said I was being ridiculous saying that people on this site would deny people's experiences. :rolleyes:

Quote from: EOTB;1042303True Black Raven is another sock puppet for Perilous Dreamer/Crimhthan the Great/Llauranela/TGM1975/ETC/ETC/ETC.  That post is a carbon copy of other like posts said person has posted for years on DF and elsewhere.

If you have proof of this, then you should be using the Report function.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042305And someone said I was being ridiculous saying that people on this site would deny people's experiences. :rolleyes:

Maybe because your experience is not the majority of experiences? That your experience is actually the minority of minorities?

Of course you have been claiming that this is erasure based upon you being bisexual, but when you meet a stranger do you introduce yourself by saying, "Hello, my name is Emperor Norton and I am bisexual"? Since if you don't, how do people you have never met know your sexual preferences to be bigoted against you as you claim?

Quote from: jeff37923;1042307Maybe because your experience is not the majority of experiences? That your experience is actually the minority of minorities?

Of course you have been claiming that this is erasure based upon you being bisexual, but when you meet a stranger do you introduce yourself by saying, "Hello, my name is Emperor Norton and I am bisexual"? Since if you don't, how do people you have never met know your sexual preferences to be bigoted against you as you claim?

When people make jokes about gay dudes, or crude remarks about women, it doesn't actually require them knowing I'm bi.

Actually, I've found being a minority that is easily able to pass, that I don't see as much of the overt hatred, but I see a hell of a lot more of the insidious bullshit.

Quote from: True Black Raven;1042271I don't really care if someone wants to call me a bigot. I personally will not buy a game that I might play with children or grandchildren or other relatives or friends, that includes anything that is part of the LGBTPQ pedophile culture agenda. I am also not into the whole inclusive thing either. The people I invite into my life are those who are good, moral, decent people. Perverted child molesters, rapists and the rest of the deviant LGBTPQ crowd are not welcome. The is not a bad thing, that is common sense and protecting your family.

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Quote from: jeff37923;1042307Of course you have been claiming that this is erasure based upon you being bisexual, but when you meet a stranger do you introduce yourself by saying, "Hello, my name is Emperor Norton and I am bisexual"? Since if you don't, how do people you have never met know your sexual preferences to be bigoted against you as you claim?

My mind's eye vision of Emperor Norton is a fatter Adam Koebel (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=adam+koebel&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjy7enZrL3bAhXJJ8AKHZ0BBQkQ_AUICigB&biw=1455&bih=699), telling the strangers staring at him how Bi he is (and that his offspring's Trans!), while complaining that everyone is ignoring his wife.

But I could be wrong.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042275[ATTACH=CONFIG]2531[/ATTACH]

Didn't you complain earlier that your son didn't feel welcome?

Quote from: Larsdangly;1042289And there it is folks; a real, live, honest to goodness POS who dropped in to take a homophobic dump on our thread. Luckily you can see from the Join date that this is either a drive-by bigoting, or perhaps a regular member who was smart enough to change their name when typing in 'hate on' mode.

Or someone who wanted to bolster their sides arguments with a foolish poster. As long as we are speculating.

Quote from: EOTB;1042303True Black Raven is another sock puppet for Perilous Dreamer/Crimhthan the Great/Llauranela/TGM1975/ETC/ETC/ETC.  That post is a carbon copy of other like posts said person has posted for years on DF and elsewhere.

Hey, I like Crimthan/The Perilous Dreamer, and while his views on the LGBT community are admittedly very antiquated, even he wouldn't spew the kind of far right-wing Neo-Puritan venom that True Black Raven is currently dishing out.

I'm openly bisexual and I get along very well with The Perilous Dreamer, who I'm pretty sure knows about my particular orientation.

I'm sure that even a right-wing Puritan wannabe like Ras Algethi thinks that True Black Raven is either a troll or a lunatic (of course, knowing what I know about Ras, he's probably going to start supporting True Black Raven now just to spite me).

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1042315Hey, I like Crimthan/The Perilous Dreamer, and while his views on the LGBT community are admittedly very antiquated, even he wouldn't spew the kind of far right-wing Neo-Puritan venom that True Black Raven is currently dishing out.

I'm openly bisexual and I get along very well with The Perilous Dreamer, who I'm pretty sure knows about my particular orientation.

I'm sure that even a right-wing Puritan wannabe like Ras Algethi thinks that True Black Raven is either a troll or a lunatic (of course, knowing what I know about Ras, he's probably going to start supporting True Black Raven now just to spite me).

Had to know the anti-puritan bigotry would come out.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1042316Had to know the anti-puritan bigotry would come out.

I'm not sure what else to call True Black Raven's rhetoric.

The whole "all gays are pedophiles" was a common fallacy spewed by the Religious Right.

It was particularly commonly invoked during the 1950's and 1960's, back when homosexuality was still considered a mental illness by the medical community.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042310When people make jokes about gay dudes, or crude remarks about women, it doesn't actually require them knowing I'm bi.

OK, so lets apply that to representation in gaming material. If you just leave a NPCs sexual orientation blank, how do you know if that NPC is GBLT or not? That NPC could be anything, dependent solely on the decision of the GM. You wanted to make an issue about Jeff Dee's illustration of Morgan Ironwolf, can you tell me what her sexual orientation is just from the illustration?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042310Actually, I've found being a minority that is easily able to pass, that I don't see as much of the overt hatred, but I see a hell of a lot more of the insidious bullshit.

You know, if people don't wear their sexual preferences on their sleeve, then anyone can "easily pass" because sexual orientation is not a common subject of conversation. It sure as Hell doesn't come up up often at the game table if you are engaged in Actual Play of a game.

Quote from: jeff37923;1042318OK, so lets apply that to representation in gaming material. If you just leave a NPCs sexual orientation blank, how do you know if that NPC is GBLT or not? That NPC could be anything, dependent solely on the decision of the GM. You wanted to make an issue about Jeff Dee's illustration of Morgan Ironwolf, can you tell me what her sexual orientation is just from the illustration?




You know, if people don't wear their sexual preferences on their sleeve, then anyone can "easily pass" because sexual orientation is not a common subject of conversation. It sure as Hell doesn't come up up often at the game table if you are engaged in Actual Play of a game.

As much as I feel for Emperor Norton and the shit he's been put through in this thread, Jeff actually does have a point.

It's your game, if you want to make your character LGBT, then go for it! If not, that's cool too.

Quote from: S'mon;1042312My mind's eye vision of Emperor Norton is a fatter Adam Koebel (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=adam+koebel&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjy7enZrL3bAhXJJ8AKHZ0BBQkQ_AUICigB&biw=1455&bih=699), telling the strangers staring at him how Bi he is (and that his offspring's Trans!), while complaining that everyone is ignoring his wife.

But I could be wrong.

Actually, I brought it up here because it was fucking relevant to the discussion. It rarely comes up in my daily life. Hell, I doubt most of my coworkers even know I'm bi. I don't hide it but I don't bring it up unless it is relevant to the conversation (for instance, a discussion of inclusion in roleplaying games, or if I find a certain male celebrity attractive).

Of course I could make jokes about how I imagine you guys as neckbeards in MAGA hats on a street corner catcalling women, but I don't, because I don't think I'm arguing with caricatures but actual people.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042321Actually, I brought it up here because it was fucking relevant to the discussion. It rarely comes up in my daily life. Hell, I doubt most of my coworkers even know I'm bi. I don't hide it but I don't bring it up unless it is relevant to the conversation (for instance, a discussion of inclusion in roleplaying games, or if I find a certain male celebrity attractive).

Of course I could make jokes about how I imagine you guys as neckbeards in MAGA hats on a street corner catcalling women, but I don't, because I don't think I'm arguing with caricatures but actual people.

This guy gets it.

Quote from: jeff37923;1042318You know, if people don't wear their sexual preferences on their sleeve, then anyone can "easily pass" because sexual orientation is not a common subject of conversation. It sure as Hell doesn't come up up often at the game table if you are engaged in Actual Play of a game.

You mean no one you game with ever casually mentions their significant other? Ever?

And why exactly should people HAVE to be able to pass? "I'm OK with you being gay, but just don't ACT gay!"

Quote from: jeff37923;1042318OK, so lets apply that to representation in gaming material. If you just leave a NPCs sexual orientation blank, how do you know if that NPC is GBLT or not? That NPC could be anything, dependent solely on the decision of the GM. You wanted to make an issue about Jeff Dee's illustration of Morgan Ironwolf, can you tell me what her sexual orientation is just from the illustration?

So none of your NPCs have any significant others? Like, there aren't established connections between any of the NPCs in your towns? None of those old school modules ever mentioned married male and female couples? Or that two characters were together? None of them?

See this is the thing: If you were against representation of ANY sexuality in games, why would you only object when it was an LGBT couple mentioned.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042323You mean no one you game with ever casually mentions their significant other? Ever?

And why exactly should people HAVE to be able to pass?

I've always wondered this myself.

I think Jeff is trying to go after people who try to wave their orientation in people's faces and not casually mentioning one's significant other in a conversation. But you do have a point, Emperor Norton.

As for Ras Algethi, he's an asshole and you should ignore him. He advocates for cruel and unusual punishments (waterboarding, death penalty, life without parole) and I get the feeling he unironically pines for the old Massachusetts Bay Colony days of literal witch hunts and lynching people for celebrating Christmas and other "pagan" activities.

Despite the obvious fact that he is a wannabe Neo-Puritan, he claims to be agnostic as a poor attempt at deflecting criticism.

Fuck the Puritans, BTW. But to get back on topic, Jeff can be reasoned with and I can sort of understand what both of you are aiming at in your points.

Emperor Norton, trust me, I know how it feels to be an outnumbered liberal on this site.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042310When people make jokes about gay dudes, or crude remarks about women, it doesn't actually require them knowing I'm bi.

So making jokes is now off limits? Have you actually ever hung out with a group of dudes before? Crude jokes and hazing is rite of passage for most groups of friends.

I remember some dude we didn't know very well played a game with us and got super pissed about "gay jokes", started some righteous indignation bullshit speech. One of the gay players told him to STFU; never saw him again.

Quote from: Brad;1042327So making jokes is now off limits? Have you actually ever hung out with a group of dudes before? Crude jokes and hazing is rite of passage for most groups of friends.

I remember some dude we didn't know very well played a game with us and got super pissed about "gay jokes", started some righteous indignation bullshit speech. One of the gay players told him to STFU; never saw him again.

I'm also inclined to agree with this too.

There is a difference between jokes and actual bigotry, and that statement goes both ways.

Neither SJW's nor Neo-Puritans have a sense of fun or humor, and both sides are full of hateful moral authoritarians and carpetbaggers.

We should realize that there IS a middle ground between the PC Police and the Baltimore Police. People have forgotten that these days, and that applies to both sides.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1042326I've always wondered this myself.

I think Jeff is trying to go after people who try to wave their orientation in people's faces and not casually mentioning one's significant other in a conversation. But you do have a point, Emperor Norton.

As for Ras Algethi, he's an asshole and you should ignore him. He advocates for cruel and unusual punishments (waterboarding, death penalty, life without parole) and I get the feeling he unironically pines for the old Massachusetts Bay Colony days of literal witch hunts and lynching people for celebrating Christmas and other "pagan" activities.

Despite the obvious fact that he is a wannabe Neo-Puritan, he claims to be agnostic as a poor attempt at deflecting criticism.

Fuck the Puritans, BTW. But to get back on topic, Jeff can be reasoned with and I can sort of understand what both of you are aiming at in your points.

Emperor Norton, trust me, I know how it feels to be an outnumbered liberal on this site.

Your religious bigotry blinds you and makes you post stupid shit. I mean in your world view thinking life for folks who kidnap and murder folks is a wildly outrageous point of view. But I think you know how stupid your position is and you have to make up positions to assign to me so you can beat on it.... you know... strawman.

There is a difference between the jokes you should tell between friends and strangers.

Hell yeah, I make jokes between my friends that I wouldn't make in front of others: Because they actually know me, and know my beliefs, and know where I'm coming from with it.

Saying that I can call one of my gay friends the whitest girl I know (extra funny, as he is also Persian, and not even white), isn't the same as making a bunch of gay jokes in front of people who have no clue who you are, and that you have no clue who THEY are.

Also, super crude comments about women are just not cool in pretty much any situation.

Hell, making fun of each other is kind of how I even get along with people at all. People have asked if me and my wife even like each other because we make fun of each other constantly and it gets mean sounding. But I don't do that to people I've just met.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1042330Your religious bigotry blinds you and makes you post stupid shit. I mean in your world view thinking life for folks who kidnap and murder folks is a wildly outrageous point of view. But I think you know how stupid your position is and you have to make up positions to assign to me so you can beat on it.... you know... strawman.

You're still hung up on a debate we had from 2017? And to be fair, only one person actually kidnapped and murdered anybody. The other five were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time and got railroaded by a court of actual religious bigots. While I could understand bringing the other five up on lesser charges, to charge all six with the exact crime that was committed and premeditated only by one guy is the kind of excessive reactionary Puritan shit that mainly happens in Bible Belt shitholes like the one I grew up in.

Those kids were from Pikeville, which borders my home county of Dickenson County, Virginia. I was a small kid when the Lillelid tragedy went down and for years afterwards, anyone who did not conform to the strict religious redneck conservatism norm of that area was considered suspect and would get profiled as a Satanist, a criminal, or even worse.

You would be ostracized and at times even physically and psychologically abused for saying that Halloween was NOT devil worship or that the Catholic Church is NOT the Whore of Babylon, among other things. I've seen it happen firsthand, both to myself and others.

If anyone is a religious bigot, it's YOU!

Also, the fact that you are unironically defending the likes of Jack Chick and the Puritans to spite me is funny to me, all the while accusing me of making you into a strawman. The arguments you make against me can go both ways, you know.

But for the love of the Gods, can we PLEASE get back to the topic of LGBT representation and let Emperor Norton off the hook, please?

Dude's been through enough shit having to deal with this idiocy from all of us, and I am including myself in this statement as well.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042275[ATTACH=CONFIG]2531[/ATTACH]

Not that way, you pervert.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042323You mean no one you game with ever casually mentions their significant other? Ever?

And why exactly should people HAVE to be able to pass? "I'm OK with you being gay, but just don't ACT gay!"

I don't want to hear about the sex lives of the heterosexual couples I game with either. There's a reason sex is regarded as a private matter in nearly every culture throughout history. Even in primitive hunter-gatherer societies couples leave the main group to engage in sex or otherwise act in a manner that keeps it discreet (i.e. silently under covers in the dark) and those with slightly more public practices limited those practices to ritualized acts at specific places and times. People who violate this essentially universal taboo (ex. flashers, peeping toms, people engaging in sex in public places) get negative attention and generally thought of as mentally disturbed.

The entire point of 'Acting Gay' back in the day was specifically to get this type of attention. The point of it was to be provocative and push boundaries in order to advance their cause. But at a certain point you've basically reached your goal and being provocative stops being productive and starts to actively harm the cause because it keeps people who are more than willing to live and let live from being able to let live because its always in their face. Toleration isn't enough... you must CELEBRATE it because for many of the provocateurs it's the ATTENTION they're actually after, not the acceptance.

People like that are as annoying as the people who just will not SHUT UP about politics at the game table, even if you actually agree with their positions, because its not doing anything productive and actually hindering getting things done. Both are doing it for the same reason too; because they're raging egomaniacs who have to make it all about THEM and get upset when they're not the center of attention.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042275[ATTACH=CONFIG]2531[/ATTACH]

Hey if trying to keep known predators away from children makes me a bad person then so be it.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1042278If it didn't spam, how would you know? Speculating on the motives of unused accounts is futile.

That's easy forum owners comment when there is any appreciable amount of spam. But the assume that all unused accounts are not valid members who use the forum is unreasonable.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042323You mean no one you game with ever casually mentions their significant other? Ever?

Most people I know who have a significant other, game in order to get away from them. That applies to whatever sexual orientation they are.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042323And why exactly should people HAVE to be able to pass? "I'm OK with you being gay, but just don't ACT gay!"

They shouldn't, but what is the purpose of broadcasting your sexual orientation to the world unless you are looking for sex or recognition?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042321Of course I could make jokes about how I imagine you guys as neckbeards in MAGA hats on a street corner catcalling women...

While toting a CAR-15 and a Bud Light. Coors if we're being classy. :p

Sadly, I'm just a nerdy British academic with a strong resemblance to Alain de Botton (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/96/Alain_de_Botton.jpg/1200px-Alain_de_Botton.jpg).

Quote from: Larsdangly;1042289And there it is folks; a real, live, honest to goodness POS who dropped in to take a homophobic dump on our thread. Luckily you can see from the Join date that this is either a drive-by bigoting, or perhaps a regular member who was smart enough to change their name when typing in 'hate on' mode.

The homosexual community only has one way to grow and that is by preying on and converting children to the dark side. Reasonable parents do fear that group since they are predators by their very nature.

Quote from: True Black Raven;1042336Hey if trying to keep known predators away from children makes me a bad person then so be it.

The vast majority of LGBT people are NOT predators, though.

Quote from: True Black Raven;1042341The homosexual community only has one way to grow and that is by preying on and converting children to the dark side. Reasonable parents do fear that group since they are predators by their very nature.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2533[/ATTACH]

Quote from: jeff37923;1042307Maybe because your experience is not the majority of experiences? That your experience is actually the minority of minorities?

Of course you have been claiming that this is erasure based upon you being bisexual, but when you meet a stranger do you introduce yourself by saying, "Hello, my name is Emperor Norton and I am bisexual"? Since if you don't, how do people you have never met know your sexual preferences to be bigoted against you as you claim?

Maybe the Emperor is making passes at straight people and getting rejected and then he whines to HR that he is being mistreated. Of course these days HR is more likely to fire someone for turning down an advance from an LGBTPQ predator.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042325So none of your NPCs have any significant others? Like, there aren't established connections between any of the NPCs in your towns? None of those old school modules ever mentioned married male and female couples? Or that two characters were together? None of them?

Only when that would be relevant to the adventure. Oh, there are established connections - usually when it has something to do with the player characters. When I was playing old school modules, I never really paid attention - mainly because I was between 12 and 16 at the time and every NPC was just potential XP to me.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042325See this is the thing: If you were against representation of ANY sexuality in games, why would you only object when it was an LGBT couple mentioned.

If it relevant to the adventure, then sure. Yet when it is shoehorned just to Virtue Signal and has no relevance to the adventure, then it smacks of tokenism. Tokenism, to me, is a much greater disservice.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1042326I think Jeff is trying to .....

You know, you could do the amazingly mature thing and ask me what I am doing yourself....

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1042317I'm not sure what else to call True Black Raven's rhetoric.

The whole "all gays are pedophiles" was a common fallacy spewed by the Religious Right.

It was particularly commonly invoked during the 1950's and 1960's, back when homosexuality was still considered a mental illness by the medical community.

It is still a mental illness, just because I bunch of gay people worked their way into the executive branch of the American Psychiatric Association and started changing definitions did not prevent a real mental illness from being a real mental illness.

Quote from: True Black Raven;1042341The homosexual community only has one way to grow and that is by preying on and converting children to the dark side. Reasonable parents do fear that group since they are predators by their very nature.

I suspect Pundit will ban you soon.

BTW none of the many, many D&D-playing lesbians I know seem at all predatory. There was a bisexual girl who was a bit crazy-scary, but that was more her daddy issues.

Quote from: S'mon;1042276A group of people I hadn't met before came round to play White Star RPG at my flat yesterday. Two of them are attractive young women.  They told me that on the way here, one of the women had been sexually harrassed on the London Underground; some guy had put his arms around her.

Compared to everyday life, I think RPGs are pretty much a Safe Space for women.  At least for a woman in London or other European cities - maybe US/Cam/Aus/NZ are better. I'm guessing that the kind of place where people freak out about "micro-aggressions" must be a lot safer, unless that's a form of displacement.

I don't think it's rooted in geography so much as socio-economic class. This stuff all started among young women in elite college campuses in the U.S., so among some of the most affluent, privileged, and sheltered humans on the planet.  The sorts of people who rarely use public transportation in the U.S.

Bring the discussion back to gaming, and the new troll will get bored and go away.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042321Of course I could make jokes about how I imagine you guys as neckbeards in MAGA hats on a street corner catcalling women, but I don't, because I don't think I'm arguing with caricatures but actual people.

And yet this is the image that your mind conjures up......

Quote from: True Black Raven;1042344Maybe the Emperor is making passes at straight people and getting rejected and then he whines to HR that he is being mistreated. Of course these days HR is more likely to fire someone for turning down an advance from an LGBTPQ predator.

Please shut the fuck up, adults are talking.

Quote from: Haffrung;1042349I don't think it's rooted in geography so much as socio-economic class. This stuff all started among young women in elite college campuses in the U.S., so among some of the most affluent, privileged, and sheltered humans on the planet.  The sorts of people who rarely use public transportation in the U.S.

Maybe public transport and generally greater exposure to real life/ordinary people is why most of the craziness hasn't caught on so much among British students. We get a bit of it at Oxbridge I hear. But generally here it's just the academics who are crazy (except me of course). :D

Quote from: Chris24601;1042335I don't want to hear about the sex lives of the heterosexual couples I game with either. There's a reason sex is regarded as a private matter in nearly every culture throughout history. Even in primitive hunter-gatherer societies couples leave the main group to engage in sex or otherwise act in a manner that keeps it discreet (i.e. silently under covers in the dark) and those with slightly more public practices limited those practices to ritualized acts at specific places and times. People who violate this essentially universal taboo (ex. flashers, peeping toms, people engaging in sex in public places) get negative attention and generally thought of as mentally disturbed.

The entire point of 'Acting Gay' back in the day was specifically to get this type of attention. The point of it was to be provocative and push boundaries in order to advance their cause. But at a certain point you've basically reached your goal and being provocative stops being productive and starts to actively harm the cause because it keeps people who are more than willing to live and let live from being able to let live because its always in their face. Toleration isn't enough... you must CELEBRATE it because for many of the provocateurs it's the ATTENTION they're actually after, not the acceptance.

People like that are as annoying as the people who just will not SHUT UP about politics at the game table, even if you actually agree with their positions, because its not doing anything productive and actually hindering getting things done. Both are doing it for the same reason too; because they're raging egomaniacs who have to make it all about THEM and get upset when they're not the center of attention.

Yea, "ACTING GAY" the limp wrist and the fake high falsetto voices that you pretend are your real voices and the overly prissy behavior does one thing and one thing only and that is identify to everyone that you are a deviant sick pervert that cannot be trusted. You want people's view of you to change, then stop adopting the stereotypes as the norm. Stay away from anyone under 18 and quit pushing to have school push your chosen lifestyle on school children.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1042342The vast majority of LGBT people are NOT predators, though.

Then they should stop doing all the things that scream predator to any normal person. The Gay Pride parades with all the obscenity, perversion and nudity would be a good place to start. Those are a poster board for pedophiles and that is the message they send to middle America "look how sick and perverted we are". That is just the most visible single item. Another would be to stop the grooming and seduction of school children.  The image the vocal majority push every day into our living rooms through the MSM is how we view LGBTPQ people and until that gets substantially reined in and stops being promoted as this is who we are, thats who we will continue to believe you are.

Quote from: Gabriel2;1042181Morgan Ironwolf was drawn to be hot.  Because Moldvay D&D was intended for teenage boys.

Opinion. The fact, however, is that the illustration of the actual players shows a female player and a male player imagining their characters.

So 50% female based on the only factual evidence available.

Quote from: jeff37923;1042352Please shut the fuck up, adults are talking.

I'm sorry, does the truth bother you?

Quote from: True Black Raven;1042357Then they should stop doing all the things that scream predator to any normal person. The Gay Pride parades with all the obscenity, perversion and nudity would be a good place to start. Those are a poster board for pedophiles and that is the message they send to middle America "look how sick and perverted we are". That is just the most visible single item. Another would be to stop the grooming and seduction of school children.  The image the vocal majority push every day into our living rooms through the MSM is how we view LGBTPQ people and until that gets substantially reined in and stops being promoted as this is who we are, thats who we will continue to believe you are.

I bet you're the kind of person who would fuck a man in the ass and not have the common courtesy to give them a reach-around. I'll be watching you.

Quote from: True Black Raven;1042354Yea, "ACTING GAY" the limp wrist and the fake high falsetto voices that you pretend are your real voices and the overly prissy behavior does one thing and one thing only and that is identify to everyone that you are a deviant sick pervert that cannot be trusted. You want people's view of you to change, then stop adopting the stereotypes as the norm. Stay away from anyone under 18 and quit pushing to have school push your chosen lifestyle on school children.

Can't... resist... trolling...

[video=youtube_share;Vc0gYbTNctU]https://youtu.be/Vc0gYbTNctU[/youtube]

Quote from: True Black Raven;1042354Yea, "ACTING GAY" the limp wrist and the fake high falsetto voices that you pretend are your real voices and the overly prissy behavior does one thing and one thing only and that is identify to everyone that you are a deviant sick pervert that cannot be trusted. You want people's view of you to change, then stop adopting the stereotypes as the norm. Stay away from anyone under 18 and quit pushing to have school push your chosen lifestyle on school children.

You must be a homophobe and you know what they say about homophobes.

I bet you can suck a golf ball through a garden hose.

I'm just going to say what everyone is thinking.

True Black Raven is such a homophobe because he cannot face his own latent homosexual urges and admit that he is gay.

Think about it, there's only two kinds of people who would pick such a username: Steers and Queers.

And I don't see no horns on True Black Raven, so that pretty much narrows it down.

True Black Raven, do you suck dick? Are you a peterpuffer?

Like I said earlier, I bet you're the kind of person who would fuck another man in the ass and not give them the common courtesy of a reach-around. I'll be watching you.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042261I don't know man, how about being told that inclusion of people like me, my family, or my friends in official D&D product is RUINING D&D? And that anyone in the industry who includes any positive representation of LGBT people in their works is virtue signaling.

Eh. I'd say it's about as pleasant is constantly being told that the hobby is a horrible place because of all the white men in it.

At least we can all agree that True Black Raven is a douchebag and is secretly gay.

From now on, he should change his username to Gomer Pyle.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1042367At least we can all agree that True Black Raven is a douchebag and is secretly gay.

From now on, he should change his username to Gomer Pyle.

He's (yes, I'm assuming pronouns) is an idiot child.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1042368He's (yes, I'm assuming pronouns) is an idiot child.

Yup.

Quote from: True Black Raven;1042359I'm sorry, does the truth bother you?

If you ever say it, we'll let you know.

*puts on tin foil hat

True Black Raven is just Emperor Norton posting from a different account because the supply of bigotry was not meeting demand.

*takes off tin foil hat

He is at least acting like the straw-man Emperor Norton has been complaining about the entire thread.

Quote from: jeff37923;1042352Please shut the fuck up, adults are talking.

At least he's kind enough to use the same alias on other boards.  Saves a HUGE amount of time.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1042367At least we can all agree that True Black Raven is a douchebag and is secretly gay.

From now on, he should change his username to Gomer Pyle.

Let us not confuse the character with the actor.  The only thing I know about Jim Neighbors is that he was gay, and had a beautiful singing voice.  Gomer was straight.  If the show hadn't been in the sixties, there would have been a lot more Marine hi-jinks.

True Raven is one of the obvious trollers (even if he is serious), enjoying the shit he is stirring.  OTOH, I am wondering if Emperor Norton is the more subtle kind.  The ones that almost make sense, but never quite reach it.  The tell on those is they never respond when someone answers their questions, only repeat the earlier question.  They often do respond to other posts, but only the fluff ones.

@Norton:  This is the first time you've seen Morgan?  Really?  That is about the oldest "gamers are pervs!" example on the 'net.  Whenever you hear the derogatory phrase "chainmail nipples" that drawing is what is referred to.

To answer your question about inclusiveness/exclusiveness as I understand it, do you remember One True Way syndrome?  In my very first dungeon, I had rust monsters, which I described as looking like a Star Trek horta.  A couple years later, Monster Manual came out, and nobody knew what those things were, because His Eminence Gygax said rust monsters look like propeller nosed armadillos.  I got tired of telling people "that's not how it is on MY world," and went to Runequest (which I liked as a system better than D20 anyway).  So now that this is in the official rules (One True Way), anybody who wants to play an elf is going to be confused at why they aren't genderfluid.  I have three decades old campaigns, one of which elfs pick a body every so often, and two where what ya got is assigned during gestation.  I just don't want to fight with players about why I'm not changing a thirty year old world concept to fit with a newly published book.

 - Or I could just say:  "We're playing Runequest.  You're a walking tree, and don't have reproductive organs.  Now put that 5E book away, will ya?"

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1042366Eh. I'd say it's about as pleasant is constantly being told that the hobby is a horrible place because of all the white men in it.

You know, there is a reason I don't like TBP, too. Just because some whackadoos are saying something on one side, doesn't mean that people have to go to the other extreme.

(And before people point out that I was mentioning the percent of white men as designers, my point is not that the white men themselves are the problem, but that the lack of diversity is a symptom of a problem).

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042389You know, there is a reason I don't like TBP, too. Just because some whackadoos are saying something on one side, doesn't mean that people have to go to the other extreme.

(And before people point out that I was mentioning the percent of white men as designers, my point is not that the white men themselves are the problem, but that the lack of diversity is a symptom of a problem).

And what, pray tell, is this problem?

Quote from: True Black Raven;1042359I'm sorry, does the truth bother you?

Only when it is contradicted by reality.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1042390And what, pray tell, is this problem?

The same thing I've said from the beginning. The same thing I've had many many people tell me over and over who have played in my games: That women and minorities have historically not felt very welcome in the hobby.

You can scream ANECDOTES all you want, but literally just taking a look around the internet you can easily find story after story after story from women that reflect this.

Also, while very few designers, I know quite a few women who play, they are just more likely to organize completely among themselves or with a few men they know. A lot know each other from fandom communities and are very active online. Do you know how many of them there are on online forums dedicated to roleplaying games?

Compare a scene like the forums I handle for work, which are devoted to amateur video game RPG making, do you know what percent is women? Hell most of the moderating staff is women. Just because they ended up being the most dedicated people in the community.

So why is it that that isn't the case with Tabletop RPGs? Like, legitimately, why do we see such a small amount of women in TTRPG forums compared to men? What is your hypothesis? Because men aren't the overwhelming majority of who is playing nowadays. There probably are still more men than women, but not to the same degree. Why do you think the online places of discussion don't seem to match the demographics of the people who are playing?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042389You know, there is a reason I don't like TBP, too. Just because some whackadoos are saying something on one side, doesn't mean that people have to go to the other extreme.

(And before people point out that I was mentioning the percent of white men as designers, my point is not that the white men themselves are the problem, but that the lack of diversity is a symptom of a problem).

Yes, it comes from Big Purple. And EnWorld, GitP (occasionally), Kotaku, Rock Paper Shotgun, and dozens of other gaming news sites and forums.

I'm mixed race, though you'd be hard pressed to guess (the Irish won in me), and the sheer gall of people in your camp (not you specifically, mind you) are constantly crying that their voices aren't heard, while condemning people like myself who have a letter in the completely devalued alphabet soup of a gender movement is exactly why I say go do your own shit.

Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast;1042388Let us not confuse the character with the actor.  The only thing I know about Jim Neighbors is that he was gay, and had a beautiful singing voice.  Gomer was straight.  If the show hadn't been in the sixties, there would have been a lot more Marine hi-jinks.

True Raven is one of the obvious trollers (even if he is serious), enjoying the shit he is stirring.  OTOH, I am wondering if Emperor Norton is the more subtle kind.  The ones that almost make sense, but never quite reach it.  The tell on those is they never respond when someone answers their questions, only repeat the earlier question.  They often do respond to other posts, but only the fluff ones.

@Norton:  This is the first time you've seen Morgan?  Really?  That is about the oldest "gamers are pervs!" example on the 'net.  Whenever you hear the derogatory phrase "chainmail nipples" that drawing is what is referred to.

To answer your question about inclusiveness/exclusiveness as I understand it, do you remember One True Way syndrome?  In my very first dungeon, I had rust monsters, which I described as looking like a Star Trek horta.  A couple years later, Monster Manual came out, and nobody knew what those things were, because His Eminence Gygax said rust monsters look like propeller nosed armadillos.  I got tired of telling people "that's not how it is on MY world," and went to Runequest (which I liked as a system better than D20 anyway).  So now that this is in the official rules (One True Way), anybody who wants to play an elf is going to be confused at why they aren't genderfluid.  I have three decades old campaigns, one of which elfs pick a body every so often, and two where what ya got is assigned during gestation.  I just don't want to fight with players about why I'm not changing a thirty year old world concept to fit with a newly published book.

 - Or I could just say:  "We're playing Runequest.  You're a walking tree, and don't have reproductive organs.  Now put that 5E book away, will ya?"

The Gomer Pyle thing was a reference to Full Metal Jacket, not Jim Nabors being gay.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042394The same thing I've said from the beginning. The same thing I've had many many people tell me over and over who have played in my games: That women and minorities have historically not felt very welcome in the hobby.

You can scream ANECDOTES all you want, but literally just taking a look around the internet you can easily find story after story after story from women that reflect this.

Also, while very few designers, I know quite a few women who play, they are just more likely to organize completely among themselves or with a few men they know. A lot know each other from fandom communities and are very active online. Do you know how many of them there are on online forums dedicated to roleplaying games?

Compare a scene like the forums I handle for work, which are devoted to amateur video game RPG making, do you know what percent is women? Hell most of the moderating staff is women. Just because they ended up being the most dedicated people in the community.

So why is it that that isn't the case with Tabletop RPGs? Like, legitimately, why do we see such a small amount of women in TTRPG forums compared to men? What is your hypothesis? Because men aren't the overwhelming majority of who is playing nowadays. There probably are still more men than women, but not to the same degree. Why do you think the online places of discussion don't seem to match the demographics of the people who are playing?

Take the most liberal gaming forum on the net. Big Purple. Massively over represented by white and male. I personally know many LBGT and women that jumped ship when they started using their identities as a bludgeon.

Anecdotal. Right?

Most women don't give a f about rpg's, they have better things to do with their lives than listening to whiny manchilds arguing what is best for the hobby.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1042395Yes, it comes from Big Purple. And EnWorld, GitP (occasionally), Kotaku, Rock Paper Shotgun, and dozens of other gaming news sites and forums.

I'm mixed race, though you'd be hard pressed to guess (the Irish won in me), and the sheer gall of people in your camp (not you specifically, mind you) are constantly crying that their voices aren't heard, while condemning people like myself who have a letter in the completely devalued alphabet soup of a gender movement is exactly why I say go do your own shit.

My wife is half hispanic/half irish and yeah, she looks like just a dark haired white person, so most people never know. Granted, this also means people will say a lot of super racist shit about hispanics around her. She actually had one of the nurses she used to work with in a hospital that was literally a MAGA type (and when I say literally, I mean she had a Make America Great Again bumper sticker, I'm not exaggerating to call her a MAGA type) who would say all kinds of things about *insert racial slurs for Mexicans here* around her all the time.

And honestly, the thing is, yeah, LGBT voices ARE being heard now. But it wasn't always like that. And the people who make everything about the "SJW War" on both sides suck. That is my point. Hell, I like several settings that include things that many SJW types would call sexist garbage (I actually quite like Cthulhutech's setting, even though the mechanics are garbage, and even though it is literally just a collection of other shit slapped together with a bit of numbers filed off and some tape (some cthulhu here, some robotech there, some guyver over here), and in the Video game arena I love NieR Automata, which SJW types see 2B's outfit and immediately have a conniption fit.

But just how I think they are crazy when they overreact to stuff like that, I think it is just as ridiculous to go online to complain about things that are included with the intention of being inclusive. And that when people do that, they are just being incredibly reactionary or bigoted, or possibly both. Sometimes without really realizing it!

And before people get all "AH ah ah caught you in a trap, you are getting angry too", hell yeah I get angry. I get angry when you can't go online to talk about RPGs because people have to freak the hell out over stuff that they can just cut from their home games and never even mention.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1042398Take the most liberal gaming forum on the net. Big Purple. Massively over represented by white and male. I personally know many LBGT and women that jumped ship when they started using their identities as a bludgeon.

Anecdotal. Right?

Yep, I've already stated reasons why I hate TBP. So why do they never come here then?

Quote from: John Scott;1042400Most women don't give a f about rpg's, they have better things to do with their lives than listening to whiny manchilds arguing what is best for the hobby.

Strange then that I can find women in tons and tons and tons of other areas of the internet. Some of them just as drama filled as the RPG field. (You haven't heard drama until you've heard livejournal RP drama.)

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042264And some people, it isn't even about that. It is about having an adversary. This entire site is adversarial. A lot of people are here that left TBP, a place that IS so tumblr that it cracks me up (I've actually have been suspended there for not falling in lockstep over agreement on lynchmobbing someone, I think it was Zak S, who I said wasn't sexist, even if he was an asshole (he still probably remembers me calling him an asshole, guy never forgets anything, probably has me on a list somewhere with all the "liars")), and the truth is that some people get so worked up into the "war" that they have to automatically side on the other side of whatever the opposition believes. You can see this with Pundit, who was a big defender of 5e when it came out, but now that it is accepted over at TBP, he has to be angry about something, so the SJW PANDERING has to be the thing, cause he still likes it mechanically.

This site allows very adversarial speech, to a point. It is possible to cross a line though.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042264The thing is, if someone is describing something you aren't doing, then they AREN'T TALKING ABOUT YOU! I never blamed the whole site for this. I've always said it was a minority that freaks out. What I did say is that when you have this incredibly vocal minority, you can't be surprised that people think you are alt-right.

If they aren't talking about something you are doing or something you are, I agree. However there are many who are talking about you because they've labeled you based on being white, male and hetero, and that is a reason why either you are unqualified to speak or are a perpetrator (or conspirator) in the wrongs of the world - based on something someone else may have done.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042264And then like clockwork people had to come out and defend their right to call things SJW bullshit and virtue signalling. Because they can't argue with the actual inclusion itself without actually appearing as bigots, so they have to attack the motive.

You are ascribing a single motive to a collective based on possible motivations of a minority of bad actors.

I believe terms like SJW and virtue signaling exist because the behavior of some is hard to interpret any other way. It is easy enough to ignore, but when it gets peppered with something you might be accused of (like the ascribing of the wrongs of the world to white hetero males) it just looks like hate speech.

I do agree with others here that our hobby tends to attract bad actors who also tend to haunt forums, probably much more so that people who only do salsa dancing or rock hunting as hobbies. There's nothing you or I can do to stop that, except focus on private groups and try to be somewhat selective in what you play or run publicly, or get them kicked out if there's a policy at a public venue. The existence of bad actors isn't yours or my fault, or necessarily the fault of the hobby itself.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042264A lot of people are here that left TBP, a place that IS so tumblr that it cracks me up.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042402Yep, I've already stated reasons why I hate TBP. So why do they never come here then?

At this point I almost believe you're actively fucking with me.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1042367At least we can all agree that True Black Raven is a douchebag and is secretly gay.

From now on, he should change his username to Gomer Pyle.

Sadly, while I find his opinion repugnant, he does have the right to have it and to speak. Just like I find your antagonism repugnant, although you have the same right to have it and speak it.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1042409At this point I almost believe you're actively fucking with me.

The first is talking about people in general left there for here.

The second is a question about why there aren't women HERE.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042389You know, there is a reason I don't like TBP, too. Just because some whackadoos are saying something on one side, doesn't mean that people have to go to the other extreme.

(And before people point out that I was mentioning the percent of white men as designers, my point is not that the white men themselves are the problem, but that the lack of diversity is a symptom of a problem).

A little something that recently happened in the Traveller Group that I admin. A piece of artwork from Megatraveller was posted of a female Navy officer in both her uniform and her civilian clothes (a cocktail dress), I thought nothing of it and went to sleep. When I woke up there were several ribald comments posted about the artwork and a few complaints. While reading through the entire thread, I found that the main blow up happened when a pair of white knights started berating the ones who made the ribald comments and the word misogyny started getting thrown around. I stepped in and told everyone to tone it down and the guys making the comments to keep it civil and act like gentlemen because we aren't some booze fueled frat boys ogling artwork. That wasn't good enough for the white knights who then began to jump my shit for not immediately banning people. The discussion got hot and I erased the thread after being accused of being a bigot by one of the white knights.

I keep running that around in my head because if those white knights wanted to be effective, all they had to do was just suggest that the behavior wasn't becoming of adults and people would have listened. It is when you come on like a One True Way dipshit people naturally don't listen. Instead, by being dicks about it, even though I was in agreement with the white knights (just not in agreement enough to ban about 20 people) they still went out of their way to make me an enemy because of my slightly less severe action taken.

That is the thing. Since "everyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi" became SOP for the very vocal left, people have stopped listening. They're tired of being called names just so someone can "speak truth to power".

Quote from: jeff37923;1042415That is the thing. Since "everyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi" became SOP for the very vocal left, people have stopped listening. They're tired of being called names just so someone can "speak truth to power".

Yes.  I really don't even have a dog in this fight.  So I generally stay out of it.  But every now and then, it's almost as if someone buys me a dog, takes it to obedience school, gets it handled at the vet, wraps it up with a red ribbon, and gives it to me on Christmas morning.  I don't even care that much for dogs, but the little guys is cute.  Then as soon as I show the slightest attachment to it, they steal it, beat it, take it down to the river, and shoot it in the head.  They video the whole thing and send it to me at 2:00 A.M.  Well, now I'm back to not having a dog in the fight, but my opinion of the people trying to "make me care" has taken yet another nose dive.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042412The second is a question about why there aren't women HERE.

Shh! You're not supposed to talk about the Elephant in the room.

Go in the other direction. I read a part in Tome of Foes. Corellon Larethian gives a blessing to some elves that lets them switch genders if they choose to. Huh. Neat. Thought nothing of it really. I messaged my son because it sounded like something he would like. Next day, go to jump back on some forums because I plan to start running a game soon. I've been super busy with work, and while I have played in some games, I haven't run a game in probably about a year or two.

And here are the people exclaiming how this is all SJW pandering. How it is changing everything just to virtue signal. About how SJWs are ruining D&D.

You can dislike people like those on the TBP without making more enemies of people who just think its pretty neat to see people like them represented in D&D.

Quote from: jeff37923;1042415I keep running that around in my head because if those white knights wanted to be effective, all they had to do was just suggest that the behavior wasn't becoming of adults and people would have listened.

[/B]

God I want this quote burned into stratum of the internet.

Also, Emperor Norton; Don't feel like this board is a hotbed of radical jackasses. That's not been my experience with it; this is an unaccustomed discussion between adults who love elfgames. Something that used to happen frequently when the majority of social interaction was in real life. It's anachronistic and sometimes insulting, but more genuine (and much more accepting in my experience) than any other elfgame forum I've encountered.

Also Hi. I put a trans character in my kung-fu game because I have a trans friend. Here's the several-hundred-dollar commission of her tribute character I had drawn up to accompany the statblock:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2534[/ATTACH]

So yeah. There are some radically inclusive modern games being made that *aren't* political statements. Living proof. I made this character for my friend because I wanted her to have a cool sci-fi courtier to play. It just stuck through the playtest all the way to release.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042264It's not about caring about proportional representation. I think it is bad if a group gets upset about representation, because according to them everything is already perfect. I think it is bad if someone gets upset because a positive trans character is part of an adventure series. I think it is bad if someone gets upset because a Chaotic Good Genderfluid God gives a blessing that let's someone switch genders.

They say "GO MAKE YOUR OWN GAMES THEN" but when these people are making the games they want to make, they get accused of virtue signalling, of pandering. As if the things they are doing don't match the beliefs they have.

Because the truth is: If you take away the idea that what these people are doing is false, what argument do you have left: That you don't want these things in their game. And no one WANTS to be labeled as a bigot. Even bigots. So they have to invent reasons that THEY aren't bigots, even though they don't like this stuff.

And some people, it isn't even about that. It is about having an adversary. This entire site is adversarial. A lot of people are here that left TBP, a place that IS so tumblr that it cracks me up (I've actually have been suspended there for not falling in lockstep over agreement on lynchmobbing someone, I think it was Zak S, who I said wasn't sexist, even if he was an asshole (he still probably remembers me calling him an asshole, guy never forgets anything, probably has me on a list somewhere with all the "liars")), and the truth is that some people get so worked up into the "war" that they have to automatically side on the other side of whatever the opposition believes. You can see this with Pundit, who was a big defender of 5e when it came out, but now that it is accepted over at TBP, he has to be angry about something, so the SJW PANDERING has to be the thing, cause he still likes it mechanically.

The thing is, if someone is describing something you aren't doing, then they AREN'T TALKING ABOUT YOU! I never blamed the whole site for this. I've always said it was a minority that freaks out. What I did say is that when you have this incredibly vocal minority, you can't be surprised that people think you are alt-right.

And then like clockwork people had to come out and defend their right to call things SJW bullshit and virtue signalling. Because they can't argue with the actual inclusion itself without actually appearing as bigots, so they have to attack the motive.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042412The first is talking about people in general left there for here.

The second is a question about why there aren't women HERE.

Because they don't like it here either?

They've gone to other sites. I'm a member of a few of them myself.

Jesus, it's not a hard concept.

Ok, but what don't they like about here.

Quote from: EOTB;1042303True Black Raven is another sock puppet for Perilous Dreamer/Crimhthan the Great/Llauranela/TGM1975/ETC/ETC/ETC.  That post is a carbon copy of other like posts said person has posted for years on DF and elsewhere.

I've seen this same thing said by a moderator at ODD74 in reference to an account under the name Jakob Grimm. There is a whole forum of these socks.  Ruins of Murkhill.  They "talk" to one another.  Truly a bizarre thing, and more than a little bit sad.

Quote from: Azraele;1042422

God I want this quote burned into stratum of the internet.

Also, Emperor Norton; Don't feel like this board is a hotbed of radical jackasses. That's not been my experience with it; this is an unaccustomed discussion between adults who love elfgames. Something that used to happen frequently when the majority of social interaction was in real life. It's anachronistic and sometimes insulting, but more genuine (and much more accepting in my experience) than any other elfgame forum I've encountered.

Also Hi. I put a trans character in my kung-fu game because I have a trans friend. Here's the several-hundred-dollar commission of her tribute character I had drawn up to accompany the statblock:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2534[/ATTACH]

So yeah. There are some radically inclusive modern games being made that *aren't* political statements. Living proof. I made this character for my friend because I wanted her to have a cool sci-fi courtier to play. It just stuck through the playtest all the way to release.

If you didn't tell me, I wouldn't know.

Then again, I have heard fuckwits railing against "passing privilege".

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042424Ok, but what don't they like about here.

That this site is mostly D&D related. Nothing wrong with that, imo.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042421Go in the other direction. I read a part in Tome of Foes. Corellon Larethian gives a blessing to some elves that lets them switch genders if they choose to. Huh. Neat. Thought nothing of it really. I messaged my son because it sounded like something he would like. Next day, go to jump back on some forums because I plan to start running a game soon. I've been super busy with work, and while I have played in some games, I haven't run a game in probably about a year or two.

And here are the people exclaiming how this is all SJW pandering. How it is changing everything just to virtue signal. About how SJWs are ruining D&D.

You can dislike people like those on the TBP without making more enemies of people who just think its pretty neat to see people like them represented in D&D.

This villain (http://gatchaman.wikia.com/wiki/Berg_Katse) or villains I mentioned earlier have been gender fluid since 1972.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1042427That this site is mostly D&D related. Nothing wrong with that, imo.

I'm pretty sure that a good many D&D players are women. Literally one of the D&D campaigns I'm playing in right now is all women except me. My wife is playing in another one that is all women. The game she played in before that, with an entirely different other group, was also all women.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1042427That this site is mostly D&D related. Nothing wrong with that, imo.

Tulpa Girl posts here still.

I know in the case of my wife, it's because despite really enjoying D&D, she doesn't really enjoy talking about it online.

Same reason I'm not a member of literature or economics forums. I talk about and enjoy those subjects in real life, but... I don't really have a burning need to discuss them online.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042429I'm pretty sure that a good many D&D players are women. Literally one of the D&D campaigns I'm playing in right now is all women except me. My wife is playing in another one that is all women. The game she played in before that, with an entirely different other group, was also all women.

I've had a much easier time getting women interested in Star Wars, though I have been in D&D groups with gender parity. Heck I once GMed a group of women from the Star Wars Fan Force, who were in full Jedi attire. They may have been a little disturbed by my wearing a Darth Vader helmet. :D

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1042396The Gomer Pyle thing was a reference to Full Metal Jacket, not Jim Nabors being gay.

Not getting it.

We're going to throw him and blanket party and then he'll shoot the DI?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042429I'm pretty sure that a good many D&D players are women. Literally one of the D&D campaigns I'm playing in right now is all women except me. My wife is playing in another one that is all women. The game she played in before that, with an entirely different other group, was also all women.

Quote from: Azraele;1042430Tulpa Girl posts here still.

I know in the case of my wife, it's because despite really enjoying D&D, she doesn't really enjoy talking about it online.

Same reason I'm not a member of literature or economics forums. I talk about and enjoy those subjects in real life, but... I don't really have a burning need to discuss them online.

Either of you knobs pass reading comprehension? They're not primarily D&D players. So they went to forums that do cater to the games they like, the FFG boards for example.

You both jumped on that as if I said girls don't d&d. Knee jerk jagoffs.

Quote from: Krimson;1042431I've had a much easier time getting women interested in Star Wars, though I have been in D&D groups with gender parity. Heck I once GMed a group of women from the Star Wars Fan Force, who were in full Jedi attire. They may have been a little disturbed by my wearing a Darth Vader helmet. :D

Star Wars has something that the vast majority of ttrpgs lack.

A successful franchise. Never played a SW game? Bet you've seen a movie, or one of tge cartoons or played obe of the 9 quadrillion games out there.

Way easier to get into that universe, than any d&d setting, in my experience. Hell, my buddy's wife jumped into SW after he explained, "yes, you can be like Ahsoka and Shaak Ti."

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1042433Either of you knobs pass reading comprehension? They're not primarily D&D players. So they went to forums that do cater to the games they like, the FFG boards for example.

You both jumped on that as if I said girls don't d&d. Knee jerk jagoffs.

I actually wasn't responding to you (self-important much?). But, since you failed to comprehend what I wrote, I will delight in savoring the irony of your post.

Mmm... Delicious

Quote from: Azraele;1042435I actually wasn't responding to you (self-important much?). But, since you failed to comprehend what I wrote, I will delight in savoring the irony of your post.

Mmm... Delicious

Self important? You quoted me. Why wouldn't I think it was a response to what I wrote?

RE sex-shifting elves:

That might be cool to use with Holmes-style class shifters. When the elf is a fighting-man he is male. When a magic-user, female.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1042436Self important? You quoted me. Why wouldn't I think it was a response to what I wrote?

Wow I totally did. Yup, that's on me.

(I NEED to stop posting drunk...)

Quote from: Azraele;1042438Wow I totally did. Yup, that's on me.

(I NEED to stop posting drunk...)

Fair enough. No hard feelings.

But what are you drinking?

I could go for some hard cider about now.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1042439Fair enough. No hard feelings.

Unrelated: one time I had somebody unbearable naive tell me to "keep your hard feelings in your pants!"

I didn't know you could get banned from a church

Quote from: Ewan;1042440But what are you drinking?

I could go for some hard cider about now.

Just finishing off my bottle of Apothic Dark. It's a bit greasy but not terrible. The red is much better, and it pairs with watching my beloved vampire movies beautifully

God but some cider would hit the spot...

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042394The same thing I've said from the beginning. The same thing I've had many many people tell me over and over who have played in my games: That women and minorities have historically not felt very welcome in the hobby.

You can scream ANECDOTES all you want, but literally just taking a look around the internet you can easily find story after story after story from women that reflect this.

Well, we've gone around and around on that point. I'll let anyone refer to my previous posts on that.

QuoteAlso, while very few designers, I know quite a few women who play, they are just more likely to organize completely among themselves or with a few men they know. A lot know each other from fandom communities and are very active online. Do you know how many of them there are on online forums dedicated to roleplaying games?

Compare a scene like the forums I handle for work, which are devoted to amateur video game RPG making, do you know what percent is women? Hell most of the moderating staff is women. Just because they ended up being the most dedicated people in the community.

Hold on there, cowboy. I have read many articles and testimonials on the web about how the video game scene is rife with abuse and harassment of women. A cesspool of misogynistic neckbeards who keep women down in the industry.

QuoteSo why is it that that isn't the case with Tabletop RPGs? Like, legitimately, why do we see such a small amount of women in TTRPG forums compared to men? What is your hypothesis? Because men aren't the overwhelming majority of who is playing nowadays. There probably are still more men than women, but not to the same degree. Why do you think the online places of discussion don't seem to match the demographics of the people who are playing?

My opinion? Is that women, in general, are not as interested as men in TTPRGs in the first place. There are sex divides in interests, and while anybody should feel free to participate in whatever hobby they want, we also shouldn't be surprised that there are certain distributions of sex in certain hobbies. An individual woman can and should feel free to play and make and talk about ttrpgs, but she also should't be pressured or cajoled into doing something she's really not interested in.
While I have no data on the topic, I imagine there are types of games that appeal to different sexes as well. Perhaps the OSR scene isn't as interesting for women, in general, as 5th edition, or Starfinder, or whatever. Like I said, I don't know. Perhaps the population of female gamers is higher for certain games.

And as long as I'm giving my opinion, I think the preponderance of progressives in the industry, compared to the insistance by some that the RPG industry is hostile to women, brings us to an interesting conclusion.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042429I'm pretty sure that a good many D&D players are women. Literally one of the D&D campaigns I'm playing in right now is all women except me. My wife is playing in another one that is all women. The game she played in before that, with an entirely different other group, was also all women.

I currently play Starfinder Society, and X-Wing miniatures at my local gaming pub. It's in the Pacific Northwest, where you can't swing a dead cat around your head without hitting a "diverse and inclusive" advertisement for gaming.
Out of 16 Starfinder players, we had two women. Our X-Wing scene has barely one. She plays with one or two other players she's friends with, and doesn't participate in the leagues or tourneys. We have one regular woman playing in the Armada leagues, and if I was pressed to guess, I'd say there's about 1/4 ratio of women to men in the pub playing board/card games.

My non-pub RPG groups have pretty much followed this pattern. About one woman, maybe two occasionally, in every group of 4-6 gamers.

In all seriousness, I think it is odd that you really think it isn't weird that it took a long time for someone to think of ONE poster here that wasn't a man.

I'm not saying why isn't it 50%, or 40%, or 30%, or 20%, or even 10%. Like, I asked for 1 and it took that long.

If I go down to the local gaming store, all the women there play ccgs like yuigioh.

And they are fucking vicious to each other.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042448In all seriousness, I think it is odd that you really think it isn't weird that it took a long time for someone to think of ONE poster here that wasn't a man.

Nah. No one here is giving tbat much effort into the discussion.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1042450Nah. No one here is giving tbat much effort into the discussion.

I thought about her immediately, I just didn't say anything. I was secretly hoping she would barge into this thread with her kick-ass avatar and be like BITCHES PLEASE

Quote from: Azraele;1042451I thought about her immediately, I just didn't say anything. I was secretly hoping she would barge into this thread with her kick-ass avatar and be like BITCHES PLEASE

There's only about a dozen posters that have handles I always recognize.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1042452There's only about a dozen posters that have handles I always recognize.

I didn't even realize who you were until you called my drunk ass out just now.

But man, I remember her! Tulpa Girl is awesome

Quote from: Azraele;1042453I didn't even realize who you were until you called my drunk ass out just now.

But man, I remember her! Tulpa Girl is awesome

Who am I to you? I'm genuinely confused.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1042454Who am I to you? I'm genuinely confused.

I rather like the confusion. In lieu of answering, I'll let it linger.

Also, jumping back a few pages here: I have a ton of gay friends and I kid you not, like every single one of them plays D&D. They're always stoked to have somebody to play with, although most are surprised I'm not a gigantic bigot.

The midwest is a mortifying acid flashback of an experience. Apparently to play D&D, you've got to be either a minority or a psychopath. Aside from an extremely rare middle ground that I occupy, possibly alone save for some 40-something grognards who generally own gaming stores.

The breakdown I've experienced for women-to-men gaming is about 1 to 3, which seems to be on the high side if thisthread is to be believed. I don't know ANY women who join RPG message boards, though. I also know very few female GMs, and I suspect that's the stronger determinant than gender. I never graced a message board until I started running games.

Just throwing this out there: you're allowed to have hobbies that girls don't like.

Quote from: True Black Raven;1042341The homosexual community only has one way to grow and that is by preying on and converting children to the dark side. Reasonable parents do fear that group since they are predators by their very nature.

After I warned people to keep things on topic, you jump in with this bullshit. This is your only warning: don't post on this thread again.

Although I resigned as a moderator I still have moderator access. This has gone way off topic and I am shutting it down.

If you have to ask why I suggest you think real hard about the purpose of this forum. That regardless of the antics of the owner of the site it not him that forces you to reply to each together in a manner that is insulting to each other as human beings, defeats the purpose of this subforum and turns it into an unpleasant place to discuss tabletop role playing. Develop some common sense and save the vitriol for the ballot box.

Quote from: True Black Raven;1042344Maybe the Emperor is making passes at straight people and getting rejected and then he whines to HR that he is being mistreated. Of course these days HR is more likely to fire someone for turning down an advance from an LGBTPQ predator.

OK, forget what I said earlier. I didn't see this at that time. Since your entire purpose here seems to be to push off-topic homophobic garbage, AND you've engaged in personal attacks against another user, I'm just going to save everyone a lot of time and ban you now.

Also, I continue to be seriously disappointed by this thread and other threads I've put on the main forum recently.

I refuse to have real and important issues in the gaming world being sidelined to a subforum ghetto because some people find it offensive.

But I run into the real issue, and I acknowledge it is a real issue, that a number of posters here can't seem to help but turn these threads into off-topic free for alls that derail the conversation.

Some of these posters are, I suspect, doing so because they object to the topic being brought up at all and want to intentionally tank any of the real discussion.

Others, who are JUST AS MUCH PART OF THE PROBLEM, are low-focus morons who can't stop themselves even when specifically instructed to KEEP ON TOPIC.

I'm not going to back down on this. There are real serious issues IN GAMING that deserve to be talked about in the main forum. And at the same time I will refuse to allow these threads to be hijacked by dissidents or derailed by people with poor control issues.

I had hoped that issuing a lot of warnings about staying on topic would be enough to keep people coherent. Clearly, that's not enough.

So here's what's going to happen next: people are going to be thread-banned. In some cases, people are going to be banned from posting in any threads with political elements.  And of course, anyone I suspect of intentional disruption will end up getting banned.

I HATE having to put this kind of heavy moderation in any thread, but the inability of people here to stay within the bounds of the topic is obliging this, and I am not going to let that keep happening.

You all can consider yourselves on due notice about this from here on in.