Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042130Ok, because I'm sure that people are just going to assume this is a troll question, let me assure you this is a legitimate question, because if there are any I'd love to check their work out:

Are there any female OSR designers?

Why does there have to be?

No. Really.

Why does there have to be?

Why cant people just do what they want rather than be force to meet some fucked up quota for "equality" rather than quality?

Theres been women designers in gaming since before RPGs even. And theres been women designing modules for D&D fairly early on, not to mention the various artists. Pretty sure theres some in the OSR just as there are in most other venues. There certainly are several women artists in the OSR.

Quote from: Chris24601;1042202Proportional would be one LGBT person of any type for every 24 straight people in the industry. If a company has 10 employees and two of them were LGBT then actual proportional representation of the population would require one or both be fired and replaced with straight people.

Likewise, proportional representation would be two out of every three people in the gaming company being non-hispanic whites and only 1 out of 8 being "Black or African American" (as its categorized in the census). 1 out of 4 needs to have voted for Donald Trump (62M of 235M eligible voters), nearly 5 out of 11 would need to support Trump now (45% in the latest RCP average) and no more than 1 out of 4 would be allowed to have voted for Hillary (2 out of 4 would have to have not voted) in order to proportionately represent the population.

So which Left-leaning employees should lose their jobs at WotC, Onyx Path, Green Ronin, etc. to bring them into line with proportional representation of the population?

Or can we admit that you don't want proportional representation; you want special consideration for certain groups and discrimination against other groups based on their race, sex and sexual orientation.

If that's what you want, go ahead and argue for it... but be honest about it, don't hide behind lies like "proportional representation" when you'd never actually be happy with truly proportional representation.

Yeah : this !

Fucking be honest, people, and not a lying SJW bastard (I'm not talking about you, Emperor Morton. I see your points, although I disagree with many of them, and I deem you sincere in your arguments).

I sincerely believe that, compared to the US population at large, LGBT are sur-represented among the RPG industry.

And I've no problem with that. Heck, I like it ! I like being in contact, and interacting with, people different from me in some capacity (disclaimer: I don't live in the USA, but my argument stands nonetheless)

But when I'm called a bigot - or I see people being called bigot - by ideologues who insist of seeing a problem where there's not, it angers me.

And when it becomes a fixture of forums where I used to enjoy hanging around with fellow-minded gamers - the self-righteousness, the holier-than-thou attitude, the dismissive tone, the tests of ideological purity - it makes me a little bit mad.

And when I see a substantial part of the industry recycling, for whatever fucked-up reason, this inane soup of cultural appropriation, warped inclusivity, whining victimhood complex, gender identity bullshit... it makes me sad, and angry and sick of it all.

So yeah: it feels good to come here and vent a little bit :mad:.

Nonetheless: peace to all human beings, even complete hobby-mangling shit-heads.

Quote from: jhkim;1042198I'd be interested to hear from any women that are avoiding the OSR for fear of SJW backlash. I'm not interested in wild speculation that they might exist, though.

I don't know of any that avoid the OSR in particular because of SJW backlash.  Most of the ones I know wouldn't care for the kind of games typically put out by the OSR, and if they did, would prefer they be filtered with something like my take on it.  I do know plenty that avoid gaming forums in general because they find the more vocal SJW's to be smug pricks.  They got enough of that kind of male in high school.  Though many of the guys feel the same way.

There aren't many SJW's of that type, because even some SJW's have enough tactical sense to not be that bad.  The ones that are around are particularly annoying to my female friends.  In fairness, they'd roll their eyes at many of the OSR personas, including Pundits.  But his type just makes them laugh, not send them away as the place is a waste of time.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042153The fact that women and minorities haven't always felt welcome in the hobby is an "outlandish scenario"?

Strange that I've heard this from people over and over, and experienced it myself. Good thing the straight white men are here to tell us how it really is, or we would go on with this delusion of our experiences.

What sort of thing  has made you feel unwelcome  in the hobby?

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1042219Most of the ones I know wouldn't care for the kind of games typically put out by the OSR

I haven't experienced any difference between male and female players in who likes OSR type games, vs who likes 3e, 4e or 5e. D&D seems generally popular with both sexes in similar ratios across the editions.

Away from D&D, different RPG genres definitely skew more one sex or the other; more female Vampire fans, and more male Traveller or Mechwarrior fans. Hard SF skews more male, soft SF skews more female - and outside RPGs is more popular overall too.

Quote from: S'mon;1042222I haven't experienced any difference between male and female players in who likes OSR type games, vs who likes 3e, 4e or 5e. D&D seems generally popular with both sexes in similar ratios across the editions.

Away from D&D, different RPG genres definitely skew more one sex or the other; more female Vampire fans, and more male Traveller or Mechwarrior fans. Hard SF skews more male, soft SF skews more female - and outside RPGs is more popular overall too.

Right, it's all anecdote.  All of it, including the basis for the SJW complaints.

(previous quotation was about women playing OSR games)

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1042219I don't know of any that avoid the OSR in particular because of SJW backlash.  Most of the ones I know wouldn't care for the kind of games typically put out by the OSR, and if they did, would prefer they be filtered with something like my take on it.

All my players are female and they love the OSR-style modules I've been running (Tales from the Laughing Dragon from BFRPG and the original D&D B series).

They love the OSR approach of "solve the problem how you can". Like any other group sometimes they fight, sometimes they improvise (and cater for the dungeon denizens), and sometimes they burn the bloody house down.

So, I'm not sure what issues you think women have with OSR games.

And I have no idea what you mean by your "take on it", since this is your second post in the thread, and you never describe this.

The rest of the snipped comments from the first paragraph are true of any forum or hobby group, of males or females.

Hah, what an amusing thread. It just keeps on giving.

Quote from: Tod13;1042229So, I'm not sure what issues you think women have with OSR games.

And I have no idea what you mean by your "take on it", since this is your second post in the thread, and you never describe this.

My take on the OSR is irrelevant to the main point of the conversation, which is that the women I know who are gamers find a vocal minority of a certain type of posters on gaming forums to be so annoying as to drive them away from the forums entirely.   Nowhere in that did I claim to speak for women in general, and I explicitly addressed that part in the second post.  I mention the OSR and the qualification only because of the insinuation that what drives women away is somehow special to the OSR, and not the wider gamer "culture" in particular.  

I don't see how you got any of your reply from anything I said.

Quote from: Gabriel2;1042181Nope.  I don't agree.  Next thing you'll tell me is that Bast's bare boobs are just a really tight shirt.  Dee drew other characters in that same top/boots/bare leg look and colored them so it's just one of his common looks.  

Yes, I'm saying he lied.  I once asked Kevin Long why he drew dinosaur mechs with double barreled dick lasers.  He said he never drew anything with dick lasers.  Artists sometimes lie.

Morgan Ironwolf was drawn to be hot.  Because Moldvay D&D was intended for teenage boys.  There's nothing wrong with that.  She isn't obscene. It isn't any sillier than anything else in the game.

Morgan Ironwolf was definitely drawn to be hot. I seriously doubt she was drawn without pants.

Quote from: JeremyR;1042195Is it? Women get attacked all the time for being conservative.

Heck, we just had a kerfuffle where the president's daughter was verbally berated by the darling of the left, and the president's duaghter is basically a liberal.

Before that, a woman was harassed for posing for her college photo with a gun. Then there was that teenage girl who wore a chinese dress to the prom. Just recently some news organization doxxed a random woman on twitter they deemed a "conservative troll".  There's no shortage of this stuff.

While I probably doubt that's the case here, it's hardly an outlandish suggestion. When a minority (or women) are left (or far left enought), they are considered traitors and attacked.

Or the racist way that black conservatives are treated by some so-called progressives.

And if you're talking about the Samantha Bee incident, I'd say "verbally berated" is an understatement. she called Ivanka a cunt, and suggested she sleep with her father in order to influence him on immigration issues.

If I used similar rhetoric about a woman in gaming, I'd rightfully get run out of town on a rail.

Related question: Are there any women who frequent this site? Are any participating in this thread? I saw the posts advertising that several of us have DM'd groups that are 110% female for the last several hundred years, but are there any living women who hang out here and participate in these sorts of discussions?

Quote from: Larsdangly;1042236Related question: Are there any women who frequent this site? Are any participating in this thread? I saw the posts advertising that several of us have DM'd groups that are 110% female for the last several hundred years, but are there any living women who hang out here and participate in these sorts of discussions?

I reject your goal-post shifting, but otherwise refuse to dignify it with a response.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042085It's a serious question. If all these people were always welcomed with open arms, and never faced any discrimination in the hobby or industry, why did so few of them ever go on to design games?

You're making the assumption that all demographic disparities in hobbies are due to oppression and hostility. Do you think romance novels, scrap-booking, handicrafts, and book clubs are exclusionary and hostile and to men?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042085People in this thread are literally saying that the entire RPG Industry has somehow magically avoided discrimination of any kind, despite sexism, racism, and homophobia existing throughout society. That is a statement so absurd that I can't even imagine how anyone would believe it.

No doubt there has historically been some discrimination in RPGs, just as there is in all walks of life. The mistake is assuming that discrimination is responsible for all, or even most, of the disparities.

I'm sure there is some cases of men who were interested in bead-work and scrapbooking feeling uncomfortable when they tried to get involved in the hobby. Does that mean the only reason Michael's stores aren't patronized by a 50/50 gender split is because of hostility to men in hobbycrafts?

I don't think I've come across anyone who identifies as female here.

In general, I've seen that a lot of women tend to avoid rough & tumble forums.