Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042149I would posit that this is part of it. I would posit another part is that there aren't as many women who have a nostalgia for the "good ole days" of TSR D&D, because for them they weren't the good ole days.

I can't prove that of course. But the idea that the seeming complete lack of women designing in the OSR does seem like something a little hard to just push under the rug as saying nothing.

Right, it's like, 'I wonder why women don't write RPG's based on being one of the secretaries in Mad Men?'

The fact that women and minorities haven't always felt welcome in the hobby is an "outlandish scenario"?

Strange that I've heard this from people over and over, and experienced it myself. Good thing the straight white men are here to tell us how it really is, or we would go on with this delusion of our experiences.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042130Ok, because I'm sure that people are just going to assume this is a troll question, let me assure you this is a legitimate question, because if there are any I'd love to check their work out:

Are there any female OSR designers?

I don't know. I only follow a few games that I like, and I certainly don't care what genitals the designers have.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042130Ok, because I'm sure that people are just going to assume this is a troll question, let me assure you this is a legitimate question, because if there are any I'd love to check their work out:

Are there any female OSR designers?

No idea. My involvement in OSR is non-existent.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042153The fact that women and minorities haven't always felt welcome in the hobby is an "outlandish scenario"?

Strange that I've heard this from people over and over, and experienced it myself. Good thing the straight white men are here to tell us how it really is, or we would go on with this delusion of our experiences.

As you've said, it's anecdotal.

I doubt any of us have had only white men at the table, and you assume we're all white and straight.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1042141The question about the existence of female OSR designers is a good one. And I'd extend it by asking what fraction are (so the issue isn't 'disproven' when someone digs up a singular example). The reason it is the right question is that it cuts through all the posturing and ad hominem arguments by looking for a single fact that we should suspect would be quite telling.

If the answer is, as I suspect, something less than 10 %, then we need to figure out why women won't participate in the OSR deeply enough to show up as designers The suggestion above that it has something to do with 'ability' is absurd; these games are widely available, basically free, and it is very well established that any moron can figure them out.

The suggestion that it is 'interest' just begs the question: why would women not be interested in the OSR? Plenty play 5E, computer RPGs and generally participate in 'nerd' culture. Why would they not find their way into our community with enough involvement to show up as designers?

I'm not sure what the answer is, but I am sure one factor is that a small but vocal slice of the online OSR community is palpably hostile to any manifestation of diversity. This sort of attitude is sprinkled across every page of this long thread, and crops up in many other threads. Basically, we have ass holes in our midst, they shoot their mouths off a lot, and I can't think of a good reason why women would hang around to read the sneering crap these guys spew.

I have an alternate hypothesis. RPGs, like many niche hobbies, started out being looked down upon as the interest of social misfits. And people of all kinds tended to avoid it due to lack of interest in pretending to be elves, and the percieved stigma of being a nerd rolling dice and making tables of encounters. As nerd culture has become more mainstream and acceptable, more people, and a more diverse range of them, can participate without being seen as geeks. Or, at least, that being a geek is less of a social stigma.
Why it started with primarily white males, I leave up to conjecture. I imagine it's something like why model railroading was and still is primarily the interest of white males.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1042156As you've said, it's anecdotal.

I doubt any of us have had only white men at the table, and you assume we're all white and straight.

I would put money on this forum being much much more white, straight, and male than the general population.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042153The fact that women and minorities haven't always felt welcome in the hobby is an "outlandish scenario"?

Strange that I've heard this from people over and over, and experienced it myself. Good thing the straight white men are here to tell us how it really is, or we would go on with this delusion of our experiences.

I've gamed with all kinds of people, and never had an issue with sexism or racism or any ism. The worst attitude I've gamed with was a woman who was friends with my brother, and so we socialized a bit outside the game. She would make fun of some of the other players behind their backs.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042162I would put money on this forum being much much more white, straight, and male than the general population.

Shall we compare our identies and see who's higher on the progressive stack?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042162I would put money on this forum being much much more white, straight, and male than the general population.

No doubt.  Nearly all my groups have been very close to 50% female, since I got out of high school.  It was very rare for another male gamer to want to put up with the kind of idiots that virtue signal instead of doing something useful, but occasionally one like me would endure it hoping for a useful nugget.  100% of the ladies find your type insufferable, to the point it drives them off the internet entirely.  There's my anecdote to counter yours.

The 'virtue signaling' argument is basically a logical fallacy and we should all stop blathering about it. Disliking something because of 'virtue signaling' is to say you have nothing to say for or against the substance of an argument, so instead you undermine it by questioning the motives of whoever stated it. This style of argument is the reason why a large fraction of the news media and nearly every online political debate is a glob of useless dreck. So, if you are sneering at representations of diversity in games because of some story you've made up about the reasons why it is being done, you should keep it to yourself.

Also, virtue signalling in this case actually doesn't make sense.

The whole concept of it in signal theory is that we virtue signal the "correct virtues" in order to raise our standing within a group. You'll notice that the virtues I'm expressing here have done the opposite of help me fit in, or raise my standing here. And considering I've not mentioned that I post here anywhere. And I haven't linked it to anyone, there is no one for me to be virtue signalling TO.

Now on the other hand, all the people who are jumping in to make sure everyone knows that they don't agree with me... now, that fits the definition of virtue signalling...

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042169Now on the other hand, all the people who are jumping in to make sure everyone knows that they don't agree with me... now, that fits the definition of virtue signalling...

Or perhaps it fits the definition of an internet discussion forum where people present opinions and other people make arguments for or against those opinions...

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042139And even in that case, I will revise my statement: Why is she drawn like she isn't wearing pants?

Because that's how Jeff Dee draws.

Like classic comic book artists, he draws everyone with skin tight clothes that conform perfectly to the exaggerated musculature underneath. It doesn't matter whether we're talking about the bell bottom jeans he drew in Top Secret, or the mail leggings in D&D, their basic design is the same. The only way to tell the difference is transitions and texture -- you can tell Elric's pants are mail by the fishscale shadows, and you can tell the agents are wearing bell bottoms because they flare out and cover the shoes. But if pants are tucked into boots, and no seam, unusual coloration, or texture is apparent, then there will be no clear visual indicator.

Morgan Ironwolf is wearing a mail hauberk that hangs below her waist, and high boots, so we can't see cuffs or a belt. And her pants aren't black or fishy, so they're not dark or made of mail. So there are no visual cues based on texture, color, pattern, or material. But she's wearing pants, because it's the most parsimonious theory to everyone, except horny teenage boys.

Quote from: Brad;1042175Or perhaps it fits the definition of an internet discussion forum where people present opinions and other people make arguments for or against those opinions...

You know, that was actually what I thought we were doing too, but people kept on bringing up virtue signalling...

I mean, seriously, I make a joke and you take it seriously. Don't worry, I truly believe you think that SJW bullshit is ruining D&D.