Quote from: Jaeger on February 06, 2025, 05:13:06 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 06, 2025, 04:56:56 PMWould you say that these goblins are just more humans? I think it's the opposite. The extreme variation of these goblins is an inhuman trait.

Strawman to apples and oranges false equivalency.

That isn't a counter-argument. I think GURPS Goblins is a good example of non-humans who don't have a simple stereotype that they correspond to, even in basic size. How does it fall in your categorization of good nonhumans vs bad nonhumans?

Quote from: Jaeger on February 06, 2025, 05:13:06 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 06, 2025, 04:56:56 PMThere's nothing non-human about being Klingon - they're just a stand-in for a human stereotype. ...

Umm, That's the entire point.

Right. And I'm saying that I find it dull - and certainly not the one true way that all non-humans in all games should be. The most interesting take on Klingons that I've seen was John M. Ford's The Final Reflection, where the story took place entirely within the Klingon Empire, so we got to see a range of different Klingons - i.e. they were not just one human stereotype.



EDITED TO ADD: Speaking a little more broadly about Star Trek aliens -- I've run a bunch of Star Trek games and I've liked it. However, Star Trek depended on regularly introducing new alien species for variety. Spock was interesting as a character when he was introduced, but the Vulcans after him were very one-note. So instead the creators of new shows keep introducing new species and types, with each new crew having at least one new alien type: Caitian, Edoan, Android, Klingon, Changeling, Talaxian, Denobulan, etc. In a Star Trek game, I like to have create-an-alien rules rather than trying to exhaustively list out all possible races.

Quote from: jhkim on February 06, 2025, 06:04:29 PM...
That isn't a counter-argument. I think GURPS Goblins is a good example of non-humans who don't have a simple stereotype that they correspond to, even in basic size. How does it fall in your categorization of good nonhumans vs bad nonhumans?

Because it is a rejection of your premise.

I could smell the set-up trying to score 'gotcha' points from a mile away:
"But, but, but, their extreme physical differences from real-life people means it can't be people!"

Did you think no one would click on the link that explained what 'gurps goblins' was all about?

ROTFL...

In GURPS Goblins; You play PC 'Goblins' that are a satirical stand-in for people.

It is literally a joke game satirizing English culture and how crappy life was in Georgian london.

Kick rocks.

Quote from: jhkim on February 06, 2025, 04:56:56 PMRight. And I'm saying that I find it dull ...

Because of course you do.

Quote from: Jaeger on February 06, 2025, 07:16:34 PMI could smell the set-up trying to score 'gotcha' points from a mile away:
"But, but, but, their extreme physical differences from real-life people means it can't be people!"

Did you think no one would click on the link that explained what 'gurps goblins' was all about?

ROTFL...

In GURPS Goblins; You play PC 'Goblins' that are a satirical stand-in for people.

It is literally a joke game satirizing English culture and how crappy life was in Georgian london.

Yes, GURPS Goblins is a literary satire of Georgian London. I'd love for more people to learn about it and play it - it's a terrific and hilarious game setting.

The point is, a goblin isn't one stereotype. A goblin could represent all sorts of different people. Further, if I am playing an RPG, my experience will be very different if I play a 14-inch-goblin compared to if I'm playing a human PC with a specific personality or culture. If I just say "I'm playing a goblin" - that doesn't say much about what my PC is like.

That contrasts with what you said about what were races done right:

Quote from: Jaeger on February 06, 2025, 03:57:26 PMStarTrek, while also being thoroughly guilty of 'humans in a mask' syndrome, also has a few examples of iconic 'races' done right.

Vulcans, Klingons, Ferengi, etc. In a ST RPG if you play a Vulcan, everyone knows what to expect.

One could do whole lot worse in your fantasy worldbuilding than to say your Elves are vulcan, Dwarves klingon, and Halflings ferengi.

You state this as doing non-humans right. So what is doing them wrong? I've given a bunch of examples during this thread.

1) A Vulcan character who has an extra katra - effectively two different people in one body.

2) An elf PC who was Romanized and became a devoted immigrant - calling himself Antonius Publius Eldarus and rejecting the tree-hugging ways of his former culture.

3) Ten Middle Earth dwarf PCs ranging from a precocious thieving princess to a two-fisted tavern-keeper to an idealistic scholar. Most of these are not what most people would expect of a dwarf. cf. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q6e2BrdLLRfpV-IZ9BvKwYR2rWNpPG9pkuciEACRyTg/edit

4) GURPS Goblin PCs and NPCs.

For all of these, they don't follow the rule "if you play X, everyone knows what to expect".

I don't have a problem with purely stereotypical PCs, but I also enjoy many PCs who break from stereotypes (both human and nonhuman).

Quote from: jhkim on February 06, 2025, 09:09:57 PMa goblin isn't one stereotype. A goblin could represent all sorts of different people.

I don't care what a 'goblin' could represent.

There is no reason to play a nonhuman character except to use stereotypes.

You find that dull. I don't. End of discussion.

Quote from: jhkim on February 06, 2025, 04:56:56 PMI think it's far more interesting to look at aliens as being their own things with their own range different than human -- rather than just being a narrow subset of human. In my own Star Trek games (though its been a while), I've enjoyed exploring the more non-human side of aliens.

This is exactly my preferred approach.  I'm interested in the roleplaying and behavioral aspect of what it is to be an intelligent nonhuman.  If a character can have the distinguishing characteristics I'm interested in and be a human, I'd rather have him be a human.  Less work and it gets the same job done.  I play a nonhuman to roleplay things that are outside of the human range.  There's nothing inherently wrong with playing a human in a funny suit Star Trek style and skipping to "what are my combat abilities" if that's your cuppa, but I don't find that very interesting.

Greetings!

Hmmm. I don't think I agree with the assumption of there being the only reason to play a non-human Character is to fulfill a stereotype. Certainly, in my Thandor world, Non-Human races have elements that are identifiable as "Human-Like"--that is, in my mind, a kind of requirement for any such creatures to be a Player Character Race, it must be identifiable and relatable. That's important, not just for Player "Buy-In"--but also for myself, as the DM, to make their weird societies and actions somewhat sensible and understandable.

Having said that, many of my Non-Human races have characteristics and traits inspired from real world zoology as well as mythology. These various attributes can make playing a member of such a race very strange and different from anything in normal human experience.

For example, in Thandor, Frog Humanoids have virtually uncontrollable urges to engage in sexual activity en masse, and typically in public, on a regular basis. Male, female, both sexes of the Frog race engage in such behavior. This behavior typically does them no favours whenever they are in a Human settlement.

Elephant Humanoids are primarily Nocturnal--they gain energy boosts and awareness advantage while living and moving at night--while suffering from various penalties and a kind of lethargy during daylight hours. Just imagine how your character would experience life in general through just this particular lens? In addition, Elephant Humanoids can communicate basic emotions sub-sonically, through trunk vocalizations. They also can "hear" other members of their race by listening to the earth, allowing them to determine basic numbers, and direction of travel.

Various other Non-Human races eat various meats, and other substances, including humanoids, as well as raw-meat, and substances that Humans would universally consider gross and inappropriate, except under the most extreme of circumstances. Playing up these kinds of traits and attributes makes playing Non-Human Characters entirely different from somehow just falling in line and playing a "Human Stereotype".

Making your Non-Human races embracing different and interesting character types can require more work and effort from the DM, but such effort and work is very rewarding and worthwhile in my experience. The goal is to achieve Non-Human Race Character types that are relatable and identifiable for Human Players--while at the same time reflecting and embracing racial and cultural traits and attributes that really help to set the Non-Human Character apart, as well as for providing a fun and entertaining game experience.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Let me add a clarification to my original statement - I'm not saying fictional races that do not have distinctively alien characteristics should not exist at all. Star Wars has numerous races whose physiological differences to humans aren't referenced nearly as much as their ancestral perspectives, and everyone accepts them all the same. I'm saying without distinctive, applicable deviations from the human condition, you're being redundant for semblance and style points and not much else.

GURPS goblins is a good example of non-stereotype goblins.

But then again they are goblins in name only, and you need lots of pages to describe their culture, and it is nothing like D&D or myth goblins. They could be elves, aliens or nilbogs.

If you come to any table saying "I want to play a goblin", nobody will assume an Edwardian gentleman.

However, I think I must concede the point that "There is no reason to play a nonhuman except to use stereotypes" is wrong. You can play a nonhuman - for example, a Kryptonian - to justify/experience special powers or traits. That seems to be the case of GURPS goblins.

I mean... it's kind of tricky to *not* anthropomorphize non-humans in a playable or relatable fashion for gaming purposes.

Goblinoids are *meant* to be antagonists that do things we find reprehensible in our protagonist gaming cultures, right? The protagonist-to-protagonist cultural differences *should* have some differences that are enforced. But even within the same races you could split those hairs endlessly by social-class etc.

So from the standpoint of the generalization "all non-humans are just "humans in disguise" - sure, I guess. But as a GM it's my job to make those distinctions matter *even if* the player doesn't want to play them that way. I will make the world react to their "unique" (or uncreative) take on their PC.

I don't like having non-humans just be rubber-suits in my games. I change the context of even my standard realms games to usually enforce cultural differences. For instance elves in my games aren't "frolicky" humans with pointed ears. They are alien and otherworldly. They have ancient hatreds and dislikes from old histories that they have shaped them - for good and bad. And I usually list some of these things out for my players and enforce through the behaviors of the NPC elves. The players are free to comply or not, and suffer the social consequences of it (in whatever form it might take).

Right now, I'm running a Cormyr-based campaign (Graybox edition) - and the half-elves in the party are treated very different. One half-elf is a literal bastard, who knows nothing of his elven parentage, and its treated like shit by the human populace. It is in exact accordance with how Cormyrians (largely human) feel about non-Cormyrians, but more because of his social-rank. He's a bastard of peasant stock. The player in question was taken aback by the general treatment from NPC's. He's like "Wtf dude, I'm a half-elf not a half-orc." By contrast, the other half-elf in the game is a wizard and a Warmage of Cormyr. He's treated pretty neutral - but that's because he wears the robes of a Warmage, which largely overrides everyone's inherent prejudices. Plus he's not a bastard, and his father is a Warmage too.

Mind you this is within a Human culture. If this were Elven, depending on the sub-race of Elves, it would be an entirely different situation. But I don't FORCE players to play a certain way. I give them notes on their respective cultures and I enforce those cultures in-game - and they can either go along with it, or not. But the world reacts to them accordingly.

Honestly, I think this comes down to Sitch's Law, there's a disagreement about what the parties mean by the term "stereotype". I don't think it's a stereotype that dwarves are short and bearded (women included) just as it's not a stereotype that humans have 5 fingers on each of their two hands. As applied, Sandy is right (big surprise), but I wouldn't use the term stereotype in that way.

Quote from: Zenoguy3 on February 07, 2025, 01:11:09 PMHonestly, I think this comes down to Sitch's Law, there's a disagreement about what the parties mean by the term "stereotype". I don't think it's a stereotype that dwarves are short and bearded (women included) just as it's not a stereotype that humans have 5 fingers on each of their two hands. As applied, Sandy is right (big surprise), but I wouldn't use the term stereotype in that way.

Yeah none of us is arguing that you can't have a dwarf who is a dreamer and wants to forego mining gold and instead focus on music. Or a hobbit that seeks adventure instead of gardening...it's that a hobbit is short and mostly squat and likes food, that's what makes them a hobbit. A hobbit wearing boots..? That breaks stereotype and is unusual as hell and could be an interesting character. A 6' tall vegan hobbit who hates nature and eschews comfort is just a self-inserted jackass.

Quote from: tenbones on February 07, 2025, 01:04:52 PMI don't like having non-humans just be rubber-suits in my games. I change the context of even my standard realms games to usually enforce cultural differences. For instance elves in my games aren't "frolicky" humans with pointed ears. They are alien and otherworldly. They have ancient hatreds and dislikes from old histories that they have shaped them - for good and bad. And I usually list some of these things out for my players and enforce through the behaviors of the NPC elves.

Thinking about Tolkien, I like how his elves are really alien - being immortal and mystical and all. In my Middle Earth games, I emphasize how different they are from mortals. But I also like how hobbits, even though hobbits are fairly rubber-suit-ish, in the sense that they look and act very much like people - just smaller.

I think there's room for both close-to-human nonhumans and weird/alien nonhumans. The important thing is to establish the difference.

Quote from: Zenoguy3 on February 07, 2025, 01:11:09 PMHonestly, I think this comes down to Sitch's Law, there's a disagreement about what the parties mean by the term "stereotype". I don't think it's a stereotype that dwarves are short and bearded (women included) just as it's not a stereotype that humans have 5 fingers on each of their two hands. As applied, Sandy is right (big surprise), but I wouldn't use the term stereotype in that way.

Words have meaning. My reply was assuming that stereotype meant stereotype.

If you assume that stereotype means just "what is possible in the game-world", then any PC that the GM allows is a stereotype - since the GM defines what is possible. So every PC ever played is a stereotype, which just makes the statement meaningless.

Also, I would totally allow a six-fingered PC, especially if he was a shady character who couldn't explain where he got his wonderful sword. :-)

My elf just wants to be a dentist and not make toys anymore.

Quote from: Tristan on February 07, 2025, 01:40:31 PMMy elf just wants to be a dentist and not make toys anymore.

Get out, you misfit!