Has any system done this right? The whole VR concept, of one being able to enter, visit places, hack, etc?
Or has it always been lame?
I'd almost suggest Shadowrun 4e managed to do it, except they kind of cheated. Instead of figuring out an actually cool way to have "the Net" they just got rid of it and made "The Net" something that goes on in real life around them.
Which, given current trends in technology, may be closer to how things might really pan out in the future anyways.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;302542Has any system done this right? The whole VR concept, of one being able to enter, visit places, hack, etc?
Or has it always been lame?
I'd almost suggest Shadowrun 4e managed to do it, except they kind of cheated. Instead of figuring out an actually cool way to have "the Net" they just got rid of it and made "The Net" something that goes on in real life around them.
Which, given current trends in technology, may be closer to how things might really pan out in the future anyways.
RPGPundit
I liked how Shadowrun 2E did it (not familiar with later versions), but only because I used to read the novels. If I only had the core rules to go on I would have been stumped.
I've got a Matrix-like VR world setting on a far backburner that integrates a lot of the concepts from Dreamwalker (as in, real world characters vs. VR characters), but haven't done anything with it in a while.
Quote from: RPGPundit;302542I'd almost suggest Shadowrun 4e managed to do it, except they kind of cheated. Instead of figuring out an actually cool way to have "the Net" they just got rid of it and made "The Net" something that goes on in real life around them.
Wasn't it an answer to the "ok let's go play XBox while the netrunner plays his sub-system" syndrome ? I believe it's a choice rooted in gameplay consideration rather than simulation.
Strangely enough i was re-reading shadowrun 1st Ed this evening. The problem we always had with the game was, as mentioned above, whenever the decker went into the matrix or a mage into the astral plane.
Sure, we have had this in other fantasy games, where one character goes but the others can't, but it is an occasional thing and bearable. Once it becomes 1-2 times per session, it really starts to drag.
My feeling is either have NPC deckers or make skill rolls without all of the description. Or have all deckers!
I am currently working on a net mechanic for a role playing game that I am currently in the process of designing.
The setting is post apocalypse and the characters are specialized runners who are able to travel the network. The network is open and people can access information, but only the specialized runners can actually run the network.
If I come up with something worth sharing I will let you know
Maybe it's my age, or the fact that I'm a tech geek, but I never liked the idea of being "in the 'Net." It always seemed preposterous to me.
I didn't read Neuromancer until this century, and was never exposed to cyberpunk...so maybe that's why I don't get it.
I'm rather with joewalz. As a software consultant in healthcare, most of my work involves interfacing hospital systems and at the end of the day, the last thing I want to do is play in that environment.
I am curious, though, about how such things are viewed by non-IT people. I don't know shadowrun and haven't read neuromancer. but I definitely have my own viewpoint of computer networks.
Going back to pundit's o.p., can you elaborate, please? I ask because, really, VR and the internet are two entirely different things.
Quote from: BillDowns;302734I don't know shadowrun and haven't read neuromancer.
-snipped-
I ask because, really, VR and the internet are two entirely different things.
In shadowrun, they are the same thing. The matrix is a whole world unto itself. You "jack in" to the matrix in a way very similar to the movie The Matrix, but instead of a 21st century simulation, you end up in this weird techno-Tronish network of interlinked computers where data is visible, as are computer systems, nodes, other hackers' avatars, computer viruses, computer hacking countermeasures (which can take the form of dragons, wolves, a wall of swords, etc.), etc. It's a VR internet, kind of like a gargantuan MMORPG, with your body sitting drooling in your chair at home.
Thanks for the description, pspahn.
Based on that, then, I would have to say shadowrun did not do it right. It may make a good game, but it's not very reflective of the real thing, IMO.
Quote from: BillDowns;302755Thanks for the description, pspahn.
Based on that, then, I would have to say shadowrun did not do it right. It may make a good game, but it's not very reflective of the real thing, IMO.
Shadowrun was set about a hundred or so years in the future if I recall correctly, so anything's possible. The game was also first published in the 80s during BBS times, so it's funny to see that a lot of their fictional super techno hardware and software are realities today.
Still, if the basic concept is that the player "is jacked in" and his "avatar" (in this case, an AI program) is running around doing things, then certain aspects of the gaming environment would be implied. First, and foremost, the avatar has to be in a computer system in order to exist. That system may appear as a city (a mainframe), hotel, possibly a house (that would be a home computer).
The notion of anti-virus or security programs appearing as monsters is a good one. Tron had that back in 1982.
I ran a wiki search on shadowrun, though, and it really doesn't sound like it's all entirely in a VR system. It sounds like a large part has the PCs doing things in person. Of course, wikipedia is not exactly know for being 100% accurate, either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowrun
Quote from: BillDowns;302766I ran a wiki search on shadowrun, though, and it really doesn't sound like it's all entirely in a VR system. It sounds like a large part has the PCs doing things in person. Of course, wikipedia is not exactly know for being 100% accurate, either.
No, that's right. The hacker/decker was just one part of a team that "runs the shadows." The matrix/VR portion of an adventure/run was only a part of what involved shadowrunning; the rest took place in the real world. That's one of the problems boulet mentioned above - hackers were often doing their own thing while the rest of the players had to wait (i.e. the hacker had to break into a system, disable the countermeasures in order to take control of a building's security system so the rest of the party could break in).
I tried to bypass this as much as possible by making matrix adventures run concurrent with real world adventures or giving each character equal job time on the run. It's kind of a departure from most games where the groups do everything as a group, but as long as everyone understands what's involved it's not much of a problem.
Okay. In that case, in the immortal words of Emily Litella,
Never mind !
:)
I never saw SR 2e's system. I remember that 1e's was absolutely godawful.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;302807I never saw SR 2e's system. I remember that 1e's was absolutely godawful.
RPGPundit
I get the the feeling that 2E was an attempt to fix a lot of the problems with 1E. It had some nifty bits that I'd like to see repeated (like the skill web), but there were some subsystems (particularly involving magic) that really slowed down gameplay. I think today's gamer would find it far too clunky overall. In fact, I think the coolest thing about 2E's system was that it wasn't like D&D and there were very few games on the market at that time.
Pete
Quote from: pspahn;302833I get the the feeling that 2E was an attempt to fix a lot of the problems with 1E. It had some nifty bits that I'd like to see repeated (like the skill web), but there were some subsystems (particularly involving magic) that really slowed down gameplay. I think today's gamer would find it far too clunky overall. In fact, I think the coolest thing about 2E's system was that it wasn't like D&D and there were very few games on the market at that time.
Pete
Can you explain the system a bit more? I am hoping that it will give me ideas on what to do and what not to do when I put together my Net system mechanics.
I think that the tricky thing is that at first glance you'd say "well, if its VR you could just make it work exactly like in the real world except you can do more stuff maybe", but then as you think it through you realize it wouldn't really work that way.
And yes, there is the problem of "what do the non-hacker people do meanwhile" but that's really the subject for another thread, this thread would be more about how to do a really good in-teh-intarweb system of mechanics.
RPGPundit
Cyberpunk 2020 took the biscuit in terms of annoying, fiddly, confusing and boring 'net mechanics. We just banned Netrunners as player characters and had hirable NPCs do 'net stuff if ever it was needed with a simple success/fail dice roll.
Quote from: RPGPundit;302979I think that the tricky thing is that at first glance you'd say "well, if its VR you could just make it work exactly like in the real world except you can do more stuff maybe", but then as you think it through you realize it wouldn't really work that way.
And yes, there is the problem of "what do the non-hacker people do meanwhile" but that's really the subject for another thread, this thread would be more about how to do a really good in-teh-intarweb system of mechanics.
RPGPundit
Playing SR or Cyberpunk, I used to let my brother play "hackers" because it would be just he and I, but when we had a group we did like noisms and just banned playing (in the case of SR) deckers and riggers, and we just sucked it up and handled astral space, which seemed to not get used as much anyway. Often, none of the group would want to play mages, which is why we ended up switching to Cyberpunk anyway.
When it comes to what would work better, an idea I've thought about is approaching net running like an "overlay", where the decker is present with the rest of the group and everything the decker does is in real time. I'm not sure if this is how the latest SR does it, but a friend describing it to me is what makes me think of it, so it could be. Otherwise, I would fall back on the old method and just not use "hackers". It's easier most times to just treat them as hirelings and farm the work out to an expert.
I've been thinking of a sci-fi setting a bit farther into the future, but not inter-planetary in nature (kinda like Minority Report), where everyone is plugged into the net like this. Everyone would be walking around the real world, but would see an "enhanced" reality. The system would be used to track people, employ targeted advertising, allow people to communicate, keep track of their kids, order stuff, view and hear entertainment, work, etc.. There would be a class of people called "the unplugged" that refused or were unable to receive the implants needed to use the technology, and all the PCs would be "hackers" and would know how to use and manipulate the system in order to make themselves invisible, bypass security, gather intel, etc.... Haven't fleshed it out too much yet, but I've been thinking of it a little bit.
SR2 & SR3: The Matrix is basically a digital dungeon you enter, Neuromancer-style.
SR4: The Matrix is based on Augmented Reality, Minority Report-style. In that aspect, it goes a long way towards solving the problem of splitting the party between those who are logged in and those who are not.