Quote from: Lynn;1088441I think they actually do realize it (at least, the really business savvy ones), but it doesn't take that many determined morons to massively increase your costs. Putting out fires is time consuming and therefore costly.

It's not even that. Businesses tend to be very risk adverse, especially in areas that are orthogonal to their main focus. Companies don't give in because they think the public has turned against them, but because if there's even a hint they've done done something wrong, it can have a negative impact on their bottom line. It doesn't matter whether they actually did anything, whether the majority of the public is on their side, or whether the accusations make even a shred of sense. Almost all companies are going to fold at the first sign of noise, because that's what's businesses do. It's the commercial version of the heckler's veto.

Companies will continue "going woke" until the bottom line really wobbles.

Right now, people grumble...then buy Nike, watch NFL, slather their asses with Dove soap and shave it off with Gillette.

However, if a not-woke company were to suddenly start kicking financial ass, then you'd see the coward companies rethinking their cowardice.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1088476Companies will continue "going woke" until the bottom line really wobbles.

Right now, people grumble...then buy Nike, watch NFL, slather their asses with Dove soap and shave it off with Gillette.

However, if a not-woke company were to suddenly start kicking financial ass, then you'd see the coward companies rethinking their cowardice.

Exhibit A: Chick-fil-A.

Quote from: RandyB;1088506Exhibit A: Chick-fil-A.

Details?

Chick-fil-A is a decidedly non-woke company (anti-gay marriage, anti-abortion, closed Sundays) that is doing extremely well. Every time the woke morons try to boycott them for the owners insisting on following their Christian values it just sends waves of people to go eat their chicken. Their tasty tasty chicken... Dang it, it's Sunday.

In my neck of the woods they added a new store and are currently remodeling the other because at lunch and dinner the drive-thru line wraps around the building TWICE (you essentially have to get in line to get in line).

I think the critical element in their resistance to SJW crap is that, like Hobby Lobby, they are family-owned rather than beholden to shareholders and have explicit values that reject SJW positions that the owners value over the bottom line (i.e. any organization that doesn't outright reject the left drifts left over time). The irony of course is that this (and tasty tasty chicken and waffle fries... Drat! Still Sunday) is a big part of why it's got such a loyal customer base.

Quote from: Motorskills;1088456I'm not making any public comments at this time. Thanks.

It must be devastating to be rejected by your contemporaries. I'm sorry that this happened to you.

You have my sympathy.

Quote from: jeff37923;1088533It must be devastating to be rejected by your contemporaries. I'm sorry that this happened to you.

You have my sympathy.

Sorry for the nitpick, but unless some of us are time travelers I think we're all contemporaries of Motorskills. Maybe the term "fellow partisans" or something similar is what you're looking for?

If you are a time traveler from the future start sharing some future sports scores with me so I can get rich.

Quote from: Pat;1088459It's not even that. Businesses tend to be very risk adverse, especially in areas that are orthogonal to their main focus. Companies don't give in because they think the public has turned against them, but because if there's even a hint they've done done something wrong, it can have a negative impact on their bottom line. It doesn't matter whether they actually did anything, whether the majority of the public is on their side, or whether the accusations make even a shred of sense. Almost all companies are going to fold at the first sign of noise, because that's what's businesses do. It's the commercial version of the heckler's veto.

That may be true for some global brands. I don't think that's the case for tabletop game publishers. Only a small fraction of tabletop gamers are active on online forums, and the active few are not representative of the larger community. When any contentious issue comes up on social media, the great majority of people don't take a side - they tune out. Culture wars are not half of the country/market arguing with the other half. It's 10 per cent arguing at another 10 per cent, while everyone else wishes they would just shut the fuck up.

I believe tabletop game publishers can simply ignore these 'scandals' with no effect on their bottom line. Few customers will ever even hear about the online mobbing and accusations, and most who do will not care.

Quote from: Chris24601;1088530Chick-fil-A is a decidedly non-woke company (anti-gay marriage, anti-abortion, closed Sundays) that is doing extremely well. Every time the woke morons try to boycott them for the owners insisting on following their Christian values it just sends waves of people to go eat their chicken. Their tasty tasty chicken... Dang it, it's Sunday.

In my neck of the woods they added a new store and are currently remodeling the other because at lunch and dinner the drive-thru line wraps around the building TWICE (you essentially have to get in line to get in line).

I think the critical element in their resistance to SJW crap is that, like Hobby Lobby, they are family-owned rather than beholden to shareholders and have explicit values that reject SJW positions that the owners value over the bottom line (i.e. any organization that doesn't outright reject the left drifts left over time). The irony of course is that this (and tasty tasty chicken and waffle fries... Drat! Still Sunday) is a big part of why it's got such a loyal customer base.

You said it better than I would have.

The only flaw in my example is that Chik-Fil-A is not seen as an example of non-wokeness to be emulated. Exhibit B: Burger King - a woke fast food franchise if there ever was one.

Quote from: Chris24601;1088530Chick-Fil-A rocks!

Understood, and agreed.

What confused me was this statement:

Quote from: Spinachcat;1088476However, if a not-woke company were to suddenly start kicking financial ass, then you'd see the coward companies rethinking their cowardice.

With Chick-Fil-A provided as an example.  I guess I haven't seen any example of other companies really rethinking their oh-so-woke politics.

It's only not a model to be emulated by the woke. The biggest complaint I hear at their stores is "Why haven't you opened one at X yet?" By contrast Burger King is kinda low rent around here. The only one I was even familiar with without going to the internet is the one built into a gas station.

To bring this back on topic though, the main defense against SJWs in terms of game publishing is pretty much the same thing that makes Chick-fil-A and Hobby Lobby a success. Solid products, specific non-SJW values and not beholden to shareholders who will override the aforementioned values.

Quote from: Chris24601;1088545To bring this back on topic though, the main defense against SJWs in terms of game publishing is pretty much the same thing that makes Chick-fil-A and Hobby Lobby a success. Solid products, specific non-SJW values and not beholden to shareholders who will override the aforementioned values.

   What makes things ... interesting ... is that the two biggest publishers in the industry are in line with or sympathetic to progressive thinking.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1088546What makes things ... interesting ... is that the two biggest publishers in the industry are in line with or sympathetic to progressive thinking.

Let's face it, the RPG hobby has a higher than usual percentage of weirdos

Quote from: Haffrung;1088539That may be true for some global brands. I don't think that's the case for tabletop game publishers. Only a small fraction of tabletop gamers are active on online forums, and the active few are not representative of the larger community.

A lot of the squabbles are small. However I think your percentages might be a bit off. Smaller publishers (what do we consider small? $3 million in annual revenues?) rely on social media for their marketing, including direct marketing (it is always easier to upsell an existing customer) and internet ads. Some will get into 'game retail' and some others will get into friendly retail markets like bookstores. The biggest get into stores that carry other types of games. Many also get into in store demos, and from there, that can also lead to social media 'for more information' - perhaps with the few exceptions that buy based only off of reading the back of a box (a spontaneous buy), or after seeing one of those in-store demos. "Organized play" type systems also have a web component to them.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1088546What makes things ... interesting ... is that the two biggest publishers in the industry are in line with or sympathetic to progressive thinking.

It's an interesting case though in that the biggest was bought up by a corporation; ergo beholden to shareholders (which means ultimately that their ONLY values are improving the bottom line). The second biggest is a direct offshoot of the first (and not just the borrowed rule set), employing several people who previously worked in WotCs corporate culture.

And because neither were founded with explicit anti-Leftist values, they were always going to drift leftward because non-leftists aren't on the job to drive the corporate culture in any given ideological direction, they're there for the paycheck that comes from doing a competent job.

I'd further argue that both are running largely on inertia, nostalgia and, in D&Ds case, brand recognition within the genre that's on par with Kleenex (i.e. it became so ubiquitous that for a majority of people any tabletop RPG = D&D).

Paizo's figured out its coasting days are coming to an end so is trying to re-invent itself with PF2 and given their original product was basically a legally ripped off version of another company's work (they're the China of RPG publishers) trying to be creative on their own is probably going to be the solution to their woes that they hope.

D&D is D&D and backed by Hasbro's distribution and economies of scale so it's almost impossible to knock it out of the number one spot anymore than Chick-fil-A is ever going to supplant McDonald's as king of fast food.

However, because D&D and WotC are ultimately beholden to stockholders, you can also be certain that the degree of "Woke" they can push in the long run will be limited by its impact on the bottom line. D&D will always head in the direction of mainstream entertainment media because their bosses won't let it do anything else. Fix the general culture and D&D will fix itself (to the extent Hasbro is willing to fund it).

You don't have to be Number One to enjoy some level of success though. You just need to find a suitable niche and deliver a solid product to it. Personally, in terms of Mechanics, I'm going after something a bit more rigorous than 5e, but nowhere as fiddly as 3e/Pathfinder or 4E. In terms of fluff I'm leaning more family-friendly and not hostile to Christianity (the short version is it has to be something my almost 13-year old niece could buy without my sister giving me the side-eye).