Quote from: GeekyBugle;1087584Owning "OUR" bs? Excuse me but I accept no guilt over shit other people do.

IME if I was to 'own my BS' it'd be the exact opposite of this creeper meme here. When women have expressed frustration with me it's been about my *lack* of initiative in the dating department, like not going in for a kiss when she wants it.

I think basically SHARK is closest to the truth, as usual. But of course a woman doesn't want to keep being hit on by a guy she's shown she's not interested in. And many men are not great at picking up on the 'I'm not interested' signs, just as we are often not great at picking up on the 'I'm interested' signs. I suspect among nerds the latter is rather more common, actually.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1087597Shark - I assume that any woman complaining about harassment has good cause to, that they said no and were ignored or the initial approach was so inappropriate (ass grabbing or such) that she is complaining to get the jerk kicked out so another attendee does not have to deal with the bullshit.

I'm not sure that's an entirely safe assumption.  Unfortunately, this is merely hearsay because I'm not able to provide a reference, but I read an article a month or two back about the rise of Tinder and similar dating apps.  According to the article, they had found that over a third of people in their 20s and early 30s believe that it is never acceptable, under any circumstances, for a man to approach an unknown woman and ask her out in a public place, and nearly a quarter would consider that to be "harassment".  In the context of the article, the implication was that this is because of an expectation that first contact should be mediated by a phone app or dating site rather than a direct real-world interaction, so I highly doubt that it's that cut-and-dried in reality, but, even so, it implies that there are a significant number of women out there who would consider themselves to have been "harassed" by even the most polite, respectful approach, and even if the guy immediately accepted her "no" and went on his way, never to be seen again.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1087580And you are a bigger moron for assuming that some women don't get pissed that a guy creeps on them ("just asking them out") when they are just there to game. And that every guy is suave and deflects easy if there is no apparent interest. As I said before, if they are there to do more than just game, they make it pretty obvious if the right guy is chatting with them.

So what you're saying is if I meet a girl while gaming at a convention and we're talking about stuff and she seems like she's interested in me and I ask her out, that's okay. Like, what...isn't that just what I said? Do you understand how social interaction works whatsoever? Do you understand how to make friends? The BEST way to make friends and meet girls is engaging in an activity you enjoy and meeting people doing that same activity. Going to church or book clubs or riding motorcycles, it doesn't matter.

This whole conversation is pure retardation.

Having a policy is all well and good but we need some sort of clear definition of what is harassment and what is creeper behavior.  Right now we have something vaguely akin to "I'll know it when I see it" and that has a HUGE variance from person to person.  The current method, combined with "believe the woman" nearly completely fucked me over at a con.  

I sat down to play a game with 6 other people and noticed that one of the women was, to me, attractive.  Over the course of the next 4 hours of gaming everyone had a great time and I got to see a little more of her personality.  Afterward I thought to myself "self, she's attractive, seems smart and witty, and at the very least we share RPGs as a common interest.  Why not see if she wants to go get a bite to eat?"

And that's what I did.  It was almost lunch when we finished playing so I politely asked her "Excuse me, would you like to go get some lunch?"

She said no thanks and hurried away.  I shrugged, found my other frineds and went off with them for food.

Later that day I was approached by con staff saying someone had made a complaint that I had harassed them.  They pulled me out of the game I was currently in and took me to a room off the side.  I was told that they were going to kick me out for violating their harassment policy.  After an hour of back and forthing and finally getting them to tell me what the incident was I demanded that they go get anyone else that was there at the time and ask them what happened. They finally got the GM of the game and she backed me up saying she saw the whole thing and that all I did was ask if the woman wanted to go get lunch.  

They let me stay but said if there were any other complaints I'd be out and my badge revoked. So I lost a lot of time, got threatened with expulsion, missed a game (which they wouldn't refund my ticket for) and came away with a great sense of how fucked up things are these days.

Quote from: S'mon;1087613IME if I was to 'own my BS' it'd be the exact opposite of this creeper meme here. When women have expressed frustration with me it's been about my *lack* of initiative in the dating department, like not going in for a kiss when she wants it.

I think basically SHARK is closest to the truth, as usual. But of course a woman doesn't want to keep being hit on by a guy she's shown she's not interested in. And many men are not great at picking up on the 'I'm not interested' signs, just as we are often not great at picking up on the 'I'm interested' signs. I suspect among nerds the latter is rather more common, actually.

Yeah, I used to be like that, not being able to tell she wanted me to make a move or even to ask her out. Then I learned to pick up the hints a little bit better and my sex life got more busy :cool:

Having grown with a sister, two female cousins, my mom, my granma and an aunt I also learned women will call a creep any man they don't want to be hit on by, and interpret anything he does says in the worst way, while a guy they find themselves interested in can be the worst tug, have a sailor mouth, be crass and rude and they will laugh it off as jokes and say he's charming.

Based on that and the many bitchbrain dudes now running around, any policy based on the feelings of anyone is BS. There's a reason we demand evidence to convict someone of a crime. But ruining his/her life for unfounded accusations? suddenly the SJWs are all in favor of lynchings as long as said lynchings are happening to the right kind of people.

"Believe the victim" got many innocent black men lynched in the USA not so long ago. I think the only way this will go away is if more women start getting caught in the trap.

@Rgalex The sad part is then many women wonder why nen will not aporoach then anymore. If politely asking someone for lunch is now considered harrassment why woukd I or any other male risk any social contact.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1087597Shark - I assume that any woman complaining about harassment has good cause to, that they said no and were ignored or the initial approach was so inappropriate (ass grabbing or such) that she is complaining to get the jerk kicked out so another attendee does not have to deal with the bullshit. I also assume that the Com staff are not flaming idiots (that is more of a stretch at times) and they know how to parse a complaint into plausible or not plausible and then take action.

Someone making a plausible and specific complaint, yes. That would apply to the girl getting clearly stalked at the con because the guy is standing behind her in every line, and also to the guy who picks up your big gulp and walks away with it. Your argument seems to verge on 'believe the woman.'

And now we're into the weeds of dating advice. I'm almost 50, and don't give two shits what people in their 20's and 30's think is appropriate about dating. I also think any advice about dating people taken from the internet should also be taken with a grain of salt the size of Mount Everest. What people say and what they do are sometimes completely different. Especially about sex and approaching a potential partner.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1087656And now we're into the weeds of dating advice. I'm almost 50, and don't give two shits what people in their 20's and 30's think is appropriate about dating. I also think any advice about dating people taken from the internet should also be taken with a grain of salt the size of Mount Everest. What people say and what they do are sometimes completely different. Especially about sex and approaching a potential partner.

What? You're not going to take the advice of random people on the Internet about how to chicks? It's not like most of them aren't living in basements or something!

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1087656And now we're into the weeds of dating advice. I'm almost 50, and don't give two shits what people in their 20's and 30's think is appropriate about dating. I also think any advice about dating people taken from the internet should also be taken with a grain of salt the size of Mount Everest. What people say and what they do are sometimes completely different. Especially about sex and approaching a potential partner.

It's directly tied to the situation though.  The crux of what is considered acceptable behavior at a con is what we're talking about.  On one side you have people that say it's not the time or place for flirting or hooking up. Period.  On the other you have people that treat it like a buffet of opportunity to take advantage of.

The problems happen because a) a lot of poorly socially adjusted people are part of this hobby and b) the line of what is considered a-ok has been sliding farther and farther down the hill.  I have no doubt that actual harassment happens and when it does it needs to be addressed however if the bar we're setting is "he talked to me first" then, well, we have other problems that need to be addressed.

Quote from: rgalex;1087676It's directly tied to the situation though.  The crux of what is considered acceptable behavior at a con is what we're talking about.  On one side you have people that say it's not the time or place for flirting or hooking up. Period.  On the other you have people that treat it like a buffet of opportunity to take advantage of.

The problems happen because a) a lot of poorly socially adjusted people are part of this hobby and b) the line of what is considered a-ok has been sliding farther and farther down the hill.  I have no doubt that actual harassment happens and when it does it needs to be addressed however if the bar we're setting is "he talked to me first" then, well, we have other problems that need to be addressed.

Well, that, and also that I don't want to be gaming at a table where almost any remark I make might be construed as harassment, solely due to the twisted interpretation of the the listener.  I don't see how I'm supposed to relax and pay attention to the game under those circumstances.  

I don't do much public gaming of any kind any more (for a host of reasons), and haven't done any in several years.  There were always people getting bent out of shape over something stupid cycled up to important in the twisted confines of their minds.  The difference lately, from what you guys say, seems to be that before I had a reasonably good chance that others at the table would tell the person so twisted to either settle down or walk, whereas today it's got to blow up first before folks will listen to reason.

Quote from: rgalex;1087676It's directly tied to the situation though.  The crux of what is considered acceptable behavior at a con is what we're talking about.  On one side you have people that say it's not the time or place for flirting or hooking up. Period.  On the other you have people that treat it like a buffet of opportunity to take advantage of.

The problems happen because a) a lot of poorly socially adjusted people are part of this hobby and b) the line of what is considered a-ok has been sliding farther and farther down the hill.  I have no doubt that actual harassment happens and when it does it needs to be addressed however if the bar we're setting is "he talked to me first" then, well, we have other problems that need to be addressed.

Greetings!

Right on target, my friend! EXACTLY!

All of these socially retarded idiots that don't know how to mingle with women. Combine that with the spread of shrieking feminist moron women that want to make a federal case about a normal guy approaching them. The frustrating thing is, since most women find most men unacceptable, the problem is that there is few in society pushing back against these women being entitled cunts. Even more boggling, is if the woman does find you attractive, then most of the things a man would say or do are entirely accepted and welcomed. "He's charming!" "He's so fine!" and on and on. That same behavior, or the same words, though, coming from a man she has no interest in, is regarded as "HARASSMENT!" That's fucking bullshit, my friend.

That right there is the fucking problem. Yeah, a fuckload of women interpret anything from an ugly man as "Harassment!" as opposed to what would legitimately be considered *actual* harassment.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: rgalex;1087641I sat down to play a game with 6 other people and noticed that one of the women was, to me, attractive.  Over the course of the next 4 hours of gaming everyone had a great time and I got to see a little more of her personality.  Afterward I thought to myself "self, she's attractive, seems smart and witty, and at the very least we share RPGs as a common interest.  Why not see if she wants to go get a bite to eat?"

And that's what I did.  It was almost lunch when we finished playing so I politely asked her "Excuse me, would you like to go get some lunch?"

She said no thanks and hurried away.  I shrugged, found my other frineds and went off with them for food.

Later that day I was approached by con staff saying someone had made a complaint that I had harassed them.  They pulled me out of the game I was currently in and took me to a room off the side.  I was told that they were going to kick me out for violating their harassment policy.  After an hour of back and forthing and finally getting them to tell me what the incident was I demanded that they go get anyone else that was there at the time and ask them what happened. They finally got the GM of the game and she backed me up saying she saw the whole thing and that all I did was ask if the woman wanted to go get lunch.  

They let me stay but said if there were any other complaints I'd be out and my badge revoked. So I lost a lot of time, got threatened with expulsion, missed a game (which they wouldn't refund my ticket for) and came away with a great sense of how fucked up things are these days.

Quote from: sureshot;1087652@Rgalex The sad part is then many women wonder why nen will not aporoach then anymore. If politely asking someone for lunch is now considered harrassment why woukd I or any other male risk any social contact.

And that is the other side of the creeper problem, the over-reaction to polite and classy (IMHO) nookie seeking behavior by some which does nothing but create a cycle of bullshit for everyone which we now are forced to deal with.

rgalex, if I were so inclined and not engaged to be married, I would have joined you for lunch with an approach like that.

Quote from: rgalex;1087676It's directly tied to the situation though. The crux of what is considered acceptable behavior at a con is what we're talking about.  On one side you have people that say it's not the time or place for flirting or hooking up. Period.  On the other you have people that treat it like a buffet of opportunity to take advantage of. The problems happen because a) a lot of poorly socially adjusted people are part of this hobby and b) the line of what is considered a-ok has been sliding farther and farther down the hill.  I have no doubt that actual harassment happens and when it does it needs to be addressed however if the bar we're setting is "he talked to me first" then, well, we have other problems that need to be addressed.

It is no different from any other public event - convention, festival, music jam, public sports event or the like. At any of them, there is security that will evaluate what happened on the spot. And you are right, if someone is setting the bar at 'he talked to me first' then security rightly walks away.

Quote from: Brad;1087670What? You're not going to take the advice of random people on the Internet about how to chicks? It's not like most of them aren't living in basements or something!

How to pick up women in 5 easy steps: 1: Walk up to the woman. 2: Place hands firmly on woman's hips. 3: Lift woman over head. 4: Set woman back down. 5: Walk away from woman.
addendum: Make sure your STR score is sufficient to lift the woman.

They should add that somewhere into Gurps.