Quote from: SHARK;1087581Greetings!

LOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOL! Ahh, Jeff. Outstanding. My god I was laughing my head off reading that. I love it my friend.

You're not a Beta Cuck, my friend. I agree with you. I just roll my eyes at some people's insistence that women are somehow asexual, you know? I can be a dick I know, what you say is reasonable. You know I sometimes turn the flamethrower on from emotion.

Righteously funny, my friend.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

But no one is saying that women are not sexual or don't want sex. No one is saying that women cannot harass others as well. Some are bitter about their struggle to get accepted that made them special when today it is not needed so much, and some of them look down their noses and gatekeep worse than any guy would.

In this case, Webb admitted he acted poorly ("like an idiot"). The act was a problem and he suffered consequences. The problem is when it becomes a mob reaction and people lie to suit their story and carry it further to go after any company as part of a fake crusade.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1087543The Crazy is most women have been sexually harassed. The military rates are sadly offensive, which explains why the Marine Corps keeps the WMs (women Marines) as far away from the male Marines as possible.

Part of fixing this thing is men owning our BS sex urge and how it messes with women we work near. The first stage is always admission.

The next is willful evolution; yes, we are men and we have certain urges, BUT, we're willing to say "F U" to the mirror and embrace woman as NOT sex objects. Sounds crazy, but we could try --- "we" being the men who have the problem of being snatch-dependent perverts. All men are not like this, but MANY are.

How this EVER became an issue for us playing tabletop RPGs is weird. Before I run a game I now need to address Fred, Barry, Christian or Bobby being a sex-fiend that might offend Debby's human rights.

It's like we need to sign NDAs prior to gaming.

When I started running games back in '83, one of our group's best gamers was a girl. She ran a LN Paladin that intimidated the whole party. She was incredible as a gamer, to the extent that she educated ME as a young GM. So ---

Where are we going?

Owning "OUR" bs? Excuse me but I accept no guilt over shit other people do.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1087580And you are a bigger moron for assuming that some women don't get pissed that a guy creeps on them ("just asking them out") when they are just there to game. And that every guy is suave and deflects easy if there is no apparent interest. As I said before, if they are there to do more than just game, they make it pretty obvious if the right guy is chatting with them.

So many people in this thread are so caught up into the anti-SJW bullshit that they are blind to the average experience. I have known enough socially inept guys and the occasional creep that I can easily imagine that the much lower percentage of women that used to make up gamers ran across plenty.

For some reason unless the woman is raped and then decapitated in front of a crowd, for far too many people here there is no reason to have a simple policy that states harassment is not wanted, how to report it if it happens and the potential consequences. I must be promoting SJW safe spaces if I suggest that. Unreasonable assholes are why you get the BS that caused this thread. People must be deliberately blind. It just takes 1 or 2 creeps out of a 100 decent gamers to cause an issue. I don't want them around if they are going to be creeps (I don't care if they are a creep if they don't act it out).

A lot of us ARE tired of having to put up with SJW bullshit and are reacting to it, I know I am. I agree with you though about the creeper problem. It is just that I think the average gaming hobbyist has been turned off of most real life gaming social events due to the woke crowd acting out. You get your usual batch of Organized Play participants, but the tabletop RPG equivalent of the friendly home game group avoids conventions because they don't want to deal with the hassle.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1087582But no one is saying that women are not sexual or don't want sex. No one is saying that women cannot harass others as well. Some are bitter about their struggle to get accepted that made them special when today it is not needed so much, and some of them look down their noses and gatekeep worse than any guy would.

In this case, Webb admitted he acted poorly ("like an idiot"). The act was a problem and he suffered consequences. The problem is when it becomes a mob reaction and people lie to suit their story and carry it further to go after any company as part of a fake crusade.

Yeah, but the way this incident developed with Bill Webb, it didn't matter what kind of harassment policy there was at the convention. The initial occurrence happened at the convention, but the social justice mob action happened entirely outside of the convention. It was like the whole woke anti-industry figure attack was waiting for a victim to strike and Bill Webb happened to do something dumb and so became SocJus Public Enemy #1.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1087582But no one is saying that women are not sexual or don't want sex. No one is saying that women cannot harass others as well. Some are bitter about their struggle to get accepted that made them special when today it is not needed so much, and some of them look down their noses and gatekeep worse than any guy would.

In this case, Webb admitted he acted poorly ("like an idiot"). The act was a problem and he suffered consequences. The problem is when it becomes a mob reaction and people lie to suit their story and carry it further to go after any company as part of a fake crusade.

Greetings!

Indeed, Myrdin. But there have always been socially retarded morons. Some bloated, snot nosed jabba hitting on the Kardashian wanna-be, while repulsive to her, is not "harassment." There's no need for an official "Policy". That's just women normally being disgusted and repulsed by most men. It's the 80/20 rule man. This isn't anything new. Yes, some troglodytes can't seem to take a polite no as an answer, and back off. Again, three choices;

(1) slap the fuck out of him, and make it loudly clear that he is not desired
(2) Tell her boyfriend, girlfriends, whatever. Have them pull doofus aside and let him know to go jerk himself, and get lost--or else.
(3) Go and get security, and explain to them the moron is too stupid and slack jawed to comprehend that a woman isn't attracted to him.

Again, no need for con-wide policies, and all the BS drama. Such repulsive morons are not the majority, but a tiny minority. Most men, even when they know most women think they are gross, ugly, and undesirable, know when to back the fuck off.

Also, again, most women believe they are being "harassed" anytime an ugly, undesirable guy gets too close to them, looks at them, tries to hit on them, whatever. If he's not the guy she's dying to bang, then virtually anything such a guy does can be offensive to her, and feel like "harassment." That doesn't mean it really is though, despite what the women often claim, or interpret.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Events are expected to have their own policies and ability to handle their participants without going to security. If you do that too much, the hotel does not accept your business the next year. Your first suggestion is assault and unless you are stopping a crime with appropriate force, you go to jail. Your suggestion about the creep's friends handle it leads to the sometimes bullshit and often true "missing stair" theory (one that got tossed at Webb) because most people assume the best of their friends and that a talking to works.

I don't want to go to a Con without a harassment policy as I worry about how dumb the organizers are, not because I think I need one personally.

Quote from: jeff37923;1087569Again, no shit. It isn't an individual gamer's responsibility to educate or change a social retard. A gamer, acting as part of gaming group, should try and keep disruptions to that group to a minimum - so if that means booting out a creeper before they drive worthwhile contributing members of the group away, then that should happen.

Once again, being male isn't the source of the problem but being a creeper without social skills is.

And yet you seem to believe that it is being male that results in "being a creeper without social skills"

Which must make you Mr Oblivious then.

I remember seeing a tweet from @KrystinaArielle shaming a friendly Guy who thought she could be interested in the game he was running just because her DM was internet famous.

So just tell me all about those creeper guys with no social skills, I can listen to that shit all day.

Quote(And just between you and me, there are a fuckton of other tabletop RPGs out there besides DnD.)

I dont see why thats my problem.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1087588Events are expected to have their own policies and ability to handle their participants without going to security. If you do that too much, the hotel does not accept your business the next year. Your first suggestion is assault and unless you are stopping a crime with appropriate force, you go to jail. Your suggestion about the creep's friends handle it leads to the sometimes bullshit and often true "missing stair" theory (one that got tossed at Webb) because most people assume the best of their friends and that a talking to works.

I don't want to go to a Con without a harassment policy as I worry about how dumb the organizers are, not because I think I need one personally.

Greetings!

LOL! How dumb the organizers are!:D

Assault? Heh. I don't know. I've seen plenty of women do it, and no one is ever arrested for assault. If the cops arrive, and the guy's been an ass, well, cops don't tend to be too friendly with them.

I know. We live in a pussy crybaby society. When I was in the Marines, and a woman slapped you for being an ass, most men--even your friends--would think you deserved it, and would just tell you to back the fuck down and go sit down and cool it. And yeah, usually if a woman telling you thanks but no thanks isn't good enough, I've seen three Marines crowd the jackass. The jackass got the message fast, or he'd be taken outside for a lesson in manners.

MP's certainly aren't going to be called. The jackass would get his ass beaten even more then. *shrugs*

It seems like something similar would be effective at a convention.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Shasarak;1087589And yet you seem to believe that it is being male that results in "being a creeper without social skills"

Which must make you Mr Oblivious then.

I remember seeing a tweet from @KrystinaArielle shaming a friendly Guy who thought she could be interested in the game he was running just because her DM was internet famous.

So just tell me all about those creeper guys with no social skills, I can listen to that shit all day.

Quote from: jeff37923;1087557Men may be a majority demographic in gaming, but they have not cornered the market on being socially retarded.

Since it looks like you obliviously missed that post of mine....

And I don't have any idea who @KrystinaArielle is. Enlighten me.

Quote from: Shasarak;1087589I dont see why thats my problem.

I know, but I still have hope for you.  

Quote from: SHARK;1087591Greetings!

LOL! How dumb the organizers are!:D

Assault? Heh. I don't know. I've seen plenty of women do it, and no one is ever arrested for assault. If the cops arrive, and the guy's been an ass, well, cops don't tend to be too friendly with them.

I know. We live in a pussy crybaby society. When I was in the Marines, and a woman slapped you for being an ass, most men--even your friends--would think you deserved it, and would just tell you to back the fuck down and go sit down and cool it. And yeah, usually if a woman telling you thanks but no thanks isn't good enough, I've seen three Marines crowd the jackass. The jackass got the message fast, or he'd be taken outside for a lesson in manners.

MP's certainly aren't going to be called. The jackass would get his ass beaten even more then. *shrugs*

It seems like something similar would be effective at a convention.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Have you noticed yet that not every one is a Marine or an active duty Marine with a unit and consequences? I wonder because every damned time you seem to act as if the Marine way is the only way.

Do you think every woman is going to slap someone? I assume they can take care of themselves and I taught my daughters how to handle creeps. One way is to report them to the Con so they get their ass bounced out and they cannot creep on anyone else. Works better than a slap.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1087593Have you noticed yet that not every one is a Marine or an active duty Marine with a unit and consequences? I wonder because every damned time you seem to act as if the Marine way is the only way.

Do you think every woman is going to slap someone? I assume they can take care of themselves and I taught my daughters how to handle creeps. One way is to report them to the Con so they get their ass bounced out and they cannot creep on anyone else. Works better than a slap.

Greetings!

Yeah, Myrdin. Not everyone is a Marine. The women were civilians. They handled themselves just fine surrounded by Marines, typically young men with a lot more testosterone and aggression, and confidence than most civilian men. I assumed if civilian women from years ago can handle themselves fine in a room full of aggressive sharks, then a game convention full of civilian guys should be a piece of cake.

Maybe I'm assuming that women have too much "agency" and ability nowadays.

Different experiences, different expectations. I come from an environment where typically a sharp word of rebuke from a woman is sufficient, if a kind and gracious rebuff is insufficient. Failing that, a guy nearby saying, hey, check yourself dude! has also been sufficient. All of it personal and low-key; exactly what isn't happening in today's game convention environment, according to the shrieking, sobbing SJW's.

In my experience, simple gestures and approaches like that have worked fine, in many public venues. I am suspicious of the shrieking, politicised demands for all kinds of extensive, elaborate, "Harassment Policies" Myrdin. It seems to be an effort to codify and empower a woman any time, for any reason, that she feels "offended, or uncomfortable."
Feeling "Offended or uncomfortable" is not the same as Harassment, Myrdin. Especially since women get to define and interpret anything they want as "Harassment." As I mentioned earlier, many women feel "uncomfortable" when some dork they find ugly and unattractive is approaching them, speaking to them, or any number of ordinary, common interactions. THAT ARE NOT HARASSMENT by any normal understanding. THAT'S the problem with zealous, sobbing "Harassment Policies" Myrdin.

Do you understand how that is a real thing?

Semeper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jeff37923;1087592Since it looks like you obliviously missed that post of mine....

Sorry man, I must have missed that - my bad.

Quote from: SHARK;1087595Greetings!

Yeah, Myrdin. Not everyone is a Marine. The women were civilians. They handled themselves just fine surrounded by Marines, typically young men with a lot more testosterone and aggression, and confidence than most civilian men. I assumed if civilian women from years ago can handle themselves fine in a room full of aggressive sharks, then a game convention full of civilian guys should be a piece of cake.

Maybe I'm assuming that women have too much "agency" and ability nowadays.

Different experiences, different expectations. I come from an environment where typically a sharp word of rebuke from a woman is sufficient, if a kind and gracious rebuff is insufficient. Failing that, a guy nearby saying, hey, check yourself dude! has also been sufficient. All of it personal and low-key; exactly what isn't happening in today's game convention environment, according to the shrieking, sobbing SJW's.

In my experience, simple gestures and approaches like that have worked fine, in many public venues. I am suspicious of the shrieking, politicised demands for all kinds of extensive, elaborate, "Harassment Policies" Myrdin. It seems to be an effort to codify and empower a woman any time, for any reason, that she feels "offended, or uncomfortable."
Feeling "Offended or uncomfortable" is not the same as Harassment, Myrdin. Especially since women get to define and interpret anything they want as "Harassment." As I mentioned earlier, many women feel "uncomfortable" when some dork they find ugly and unattractive is approaching them, speaking to them, or any number of ordinary, common interactions. THAT ARE NOT HARASSMENT by any normal understanding. THAT'S the problem with zealous, sobbing "Harassment Policies" Myrdin.

Do you understand how that is a real thing?

Semeper Fidelis,

SHARK

Shark - I assume that any woman complaining about harassment has good cause to, that they said no and were ignored or the initial approach was so inappropriate (ass grabbing or such) that she is complaining to get the jerk kicked out so another attendee does not have to deal with the bullshit. I also assume that the Com staff are not flaming idiots (that is more of a stretch at times) and they know how to parse a complaint into plausible or not plausible and then take action.

The woman that takes action like that is doing more than protecting herself.

Does that mean that occasionally a bad person with bad intention makes a complaint? Yes. Should we fight the public cases of this (like I have been on this thread)? Yes.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1087597Shark - I assume that any woman complaining about harassment has good cause to, that they said no and were ignored or the initial approach was so inappropriate (ass grabbing or such) that she is complaining to get the jerk kicked out so another attendee does not have to deal with the bullshit. I also assume that the Com staff are not flaming idiots (that is more of a stretch at times) and they know how to parse a complaint into plausible or not plausible and then take action.

The woman that takes action like that is doing more than protecting herself.

Does that mean that occasionally a bad person with bad intention makes a complaint? Yes. Should we fight the public cases of this (like I have been on this thread)? Yes.

Greetings!

Hmmm....well, more than a few people have mentioned that Con staff are often idiots. Maybe there's something to that, and you need a strict and codified policy so that morons can't fuck up handling stuff that should be easy. Common sense isn't, after all, so common, correct? LOL.

I'm all for women, and everyone being safe at a game convention, Myrdin. There are some real fucking jackasses and drooling morons in gaming, that are so socially retarded and dense, that even when a woman nicely, but firmly makes it clear she is not interested in them or their advances, these jackasses somehow believe that she's lying to them, or playing with them, and that they just need to "try harder" and that she will then accept them and allow them to worship her ass. I know these morons exist. That's what a good security team is for. Yes, like I think Jeff explained to me, or maybe it was Warboss, unfortunately, many conventions don't have a sharp, professional security team. Just untrained monkeys.

I don't know. Maybe they are necessary because the cons have been staffed by morons. Do you really think that is true, and some kind of elaborate, codified "Harassment Policy" needs to be established at every game convention?

I'm suspicious of SJW's and nutjob feminists, Myrdin. We've seen plenty of them in society and within our hobby, as well, you know?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Shasarak;1087596Sorry man, I must have missed that - my bad.

No worries. We are here to talk and I view most of the conversations like what I would have in a pub or bar atmosphere among people with similar hobbies.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1087553Most men around the planet probably don't see women as someone they might have sex with. Right? Sure.

That's not what you said in the post I was responding to. Seeing women as someone they might have sex with is a far cry from harassment.

QuoteAny guy can easily set boundaries between "my woman" and "that other woman I don't want to have sex with but could".

LOL

Ratman, you're so full of shit I'm thinking either you are EXPERTLY naive and rarely get laid outside of your GF/wife  OR  you're an SJW holding court.

Oh, here comes the accusations of not being able to get laid and/or being an SJW. Perhaps calling me a poopy head would go well with that.

QuoteRegardless, you win and I wont debate it because it drifts too far away from rpgs. SJWs like that drift to make their points. I don't need to make a point.

Let me be wrong. And?

If you want to drop this line of discussion, I'm fine with that. But it's hardly fair to talk shit and then say "Let's stop."