Quote from: Melan;1087481Any behaviour or opinion we might imagine has a precedent somewhere if we look hard enough. However, that doesn't indicate the behaviour is endemic, or even significant. The real difference is that fringe views have entered the mainstream because a handful extremists were pushing hard enough and long enough. Angela Dworkin, etc., were already around in the 1970s/1980s, but they didn't have an Internet army.

Agreed, they first infiltrated the academia, then the press, and then the companies. And they branded any opposition as racist, sexist, etc. Only recently ppl have started to realize who are the real bigots in this.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1087464The vagueness is a feature, not a bug. It allows more judgment to be applied. At a site that is more pro-OSR style rules, that should be apparent.

Who's applying that judgement? This isn't a gaming thing, it's a "you might go to jail thing". I wouldn't want my destiny in the hands of some woke dangerhair that "applied judgement" to a bunch of loose rules for harassment.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1087464As for finding a BF/GF, I have never experienced 50 no's before (Canada and USA).

Good for you. The average man takes way more nos in a social situation than that.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1087464I have always assumed that women at a gaming convention are there to game and that is it. Otherwise, they seem to make it clear. When I game with someone I like, I am quite open to sharing my contact info to stay in touch and potentially game with them again. If I get their contact info, I discuss gaming with them, regardless of if they are women or men.

Of course they are there to game. They might also be there to score.

Quote from: kythri;1087434I believe the idiots on the inside let in idiots from the outside, and it's more of an outside influence that's creating this.

As someone mentioned, a lot of this attitude festered out of rpg.net - it's known that that site invited non-gamers in and allowed them to change the place, creating the cancer  that it is today.

Having seen this several times now. The sad truth of its no. A portion or even a large majority of these "moral guardian" types are from within. As said its this mad urge to be "respectable". Geeks not wanting to be seen as geeks anymore? Or just some belief that the mainstream looks down on them and the reason why is all those dirty people in the community. We have to get rid of them so normal people will respect us!

This invariably fails miserably because

A: People in the fandom doing whatever was never the overblown problem they make it out to be in the first place.
B: Invariably this leads to increasingly unreasonable attempts to censor "threats to the fandom".
C: Trying to censor people who werent really doing anything wrong just creates resentment and pushback. Usually an escalating pushback. Especially in the art circuits. Want to know why theres so much over the top adult art now? Because these moral guardians attacked someone who was doing pretty damn tame stuff and sure enough gradually the art got raunchier in response. Essentially the "oh? You think that is offensive? Let me show you something really offensive." You see this in the RPG realm as well. Steadily rauncher RPGs coming out in response to steadily increasing unreasonable demands to censor stuff. This also happened in the writing biz and Issac Asimov told them to get lost. This was his magazine and he was not censoring it just to appease the prude patrol. (That was back in the late 80s I believe.)

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1087440I am willing to bet that more women were harassed than there was theft.

You'd bet very wrongly then.

Quote from: Omega;1087510You'd bet very wrongly then.

Asking the women in the store today that game (5), all of them report being harassed. Asking all of the people (about 20) if they have had something stolen when gaming, 2 people.

I am not talking about sexual assault or rape (but the statistics are high there too), I am talking about harassment tocthe point where they were uncomfortable.

I am fine making that bet any day of the week.

Quote from: BronzeDragon;1087491Who's applying that judgement? This isn't a gaming thing, it's a "you might go to jail thing". I wouldn't want my destiny in the hands of some woke dangerhair that "applied judgement" to a bunch of loose rules for harassment.

The "go to jail" think means the police are called and then you get the protection of "innocent until proven guilty". That is different than behaviors that are unwanted but do not fall into the category of being a crime. The risk of "dangerhairs" claiming something exists with or without a policy and they are rarely running the Con or are the people that complaints are taken to. Otherwise you are voluntarily attending a Con they are running and subject to their rules anyways.

I don't think every con has a reportable action, but a written policy protects the con itself if they decide to take action.

Quote from: Melan;1087481Angela Dworkin, etc., were already around in the 1970s/1980s, but they didn't have an Internet army.

I remember my Law tutor at Oxford ca 1992 mocking Andrea Dworkin & Catherine McKinnon in a tutorial. It would be a brave man who'd do that today!

Edit: Well, unless he was mocking 'trans exclusionary radical feminists'. The poor TERFs who think women have vaginas are fair game for really extreme abuse.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1087527Asking the women in the store today that game (5), all of them report being harassed. Asking all of the people (about 20) if they have had something stolen when gaming, 2 people.

I am not talking about sexual assault or rape (but the statistics are high there too), I am talking about harassment tocthe point where they were uncomfortable.

I am fine making that bet any day of the week.

I've got to agree with Myrdin Potter here. Whenever I've asked my female friends who game why they don't game more often or publicly, the response is almost universal that they don't want to have to deal with creepers. Now one woman's harassment is another woman's flirtation, but I have not spoken to a lot of women who say that any guy who looks at them cross-eyed is harassing them - they understand the meaning of the word and don't use it lightly.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1087527Asking the women in the store today that game (5), all of them report being harassed. Asking all of the people (about 20) if they have had something stolen when gaming, 2 people.

I am not talking about sexual assault or rape (but the statistics are high there too), I am talking about harassment tocthe point where they were uncomfortable.

I am fine making that bet any day of the week.

Eh, ask anyone if they have been harassed to the point of being uncomfortable and I am sure they will be able to think of a time.

Quote from: Shasarak;1087536Eh, ask anyone if they have been harassed to the point of being uncomfortable and I am sure they will be able to think of a time.

By that criteria, I have been sexually harassed by many women in my lifetime.

The Crazy is most women have been sexually harassed. The military rates are sadly offensive, which explains why the Marine Corps keeps the WMs (women Marines) as far away from the male Marines as possible.

Part of fixing this thing is men owning our BS sex urge and how it messes with women we work near. The first stage is always admission.

The next is willful evolution; yes, we are men and we have certain urges, BUT, we're willing to say "F U" to the mirror and embrace woman as NOT sex objects. Sounds crazy, but we could try --- "we" being the men who have the problem of being snatch-dependent perverts. All men are not like this, but MANY are.

How this EVER became an issue for us playing tabletop RPGs is weird. Before I run a game I now need to address Fred, Barry, Christian or Bobby being a sex-fiend that might offend Debby's human rights.

It's like we need to sign NDAs prior to gaming.

When I started running games back in '83, one of our group's best gamers was a girl. She ran a LN Paladin that intimidated the whole party. She was incredible as a gamer, to the extent that she educated ME as a young GM. So ---

Where are we going?

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1087540By that criteria, I have been sexually harassed by many women in my lifetime.

I miss being sexually harrassed.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1087543Part of fixing this thing is men owning our BS sex urge and how it messes with women we work near. The first stage is always admission.

The next is willful evolution; yes, we are men and we have certain urges, BUT, we're willing to say "F U" to the mirror and embrace woman as NOT sex objects. Sounds crazy, but we could try --- "we" being the men who have the problem of being snatch-dependent perverts. All men are not like this, but MANY are.

Horseshit. Most men manage to not see women as sex objects. And women are (should be) capable of setting boundaries and enforcing them like adults, and not children that need a big, strong man to protect them from their feelings getting hurt. Viewing men as primarily responsible for sexual harassment because of their gender is the definition of sexism.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1087549Viewing men as primarily responsible for sexual harassment because of their gender is the definition of sexism.

Their gender? No. Their utter lack of social skills and unwillingness to learn them? Yes.

Quote from: jeff37923;1087551Their gender? No. Their utter lack of social skills and unwillingness to learn them? Yes.

I have known lots of women with an utter lack of social skills and an unwillingness to learn them. So yes, your statement there is quite true, as far as it goes.