If the con removes someone and then determines that there is no need to take further action (ban from future cons), then there is little damage to the person. The issues I have seen are not the cons, it is people that will not be satisfied and argue it out in public.

Notice that Bill Webb did not say that he did nothing at the con. I would have been fine with the accuser overreacting at the time and Paizo Con handling it and that be the end of it (which was the request of all involved at the time). The discussion of arrest is a red herring, of Bill Webb's account is even mostly true there were no grounds for an arrest. It can be considered, but discussion after the fact should say considered and rejected as no reason to. Same for driving. He had a room at the hotel, he could have returned to his room and slept and left the next day no problem. The people spreading the story must have had poor intent. For example, the initial tweets make it clear that maybe someone was injured and that became a discussion on him assaulting someone. Now, two years later the person that was referred to admits that they hurt themselves.

Meanwhile, the conversation at the other site is all about justifying why they believe any crap posted that fits what they want to believe.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084627They even may be freaking out over a placeholder list that just is a copy from last year.

S'mon, I am sorry, but any good policy can be exploited if someone has bad intentions. More often than not a good policy that encourages reporting of issues helps. It keeps the creeps more in check and encourages them to be reported and taken care of. It was not the Paizo policy and action that was an issue, it was the assumption mob afterwards. In the original Enworld thread you were fine throwing Webb under the bus if he was drunk and misbehaving.

"Allways believe the accuser" is just as mentally stunted a policy as "Allways disbelieve the accuser." or "Do nothing."
It is horrifically open to abuse and from ample experience we know people will do this to total strangers just for "fun". And that is even before getting to the loons out there who think that "he looked at me from across the room" is harassment or outright rape. And it is how we have this problem of we can NEVER just believe the accuser.

Quote from: jeff37923;1084696The problem is that most of the fandom conventions I have been to are run by fans, who can be considered enthusiastic amateurs with all that entails when compared to a professionally run trade event.

There may be a policy in place, but the problem I've often seen is that policy being implemented.

That is true even with the so called "professionally" run cons. In fact some times it is even worse.

Here is Bill Webb's first statement: https://www.tenkarstavern.com/2019/04/statement-by-bill-webb.html

After reading this I'm inclined to believe what he is saying and the whole hoopla is fucking crazy. The whole thing is because e put his arm around, somebody he thought was a friend, and called her "sweetie" and the smoking thing. I'm sorry but anybody who gets the vapors over that is fucking crazy and shouldn't be treated serious. We have the nuts at RPG.net and ENWorld calling him a harasser and a predator over this.

I cannot wait to vote for Trump next year and for these people to, officially, break.

Quote from: Omega;1084705"Allways believe the accuser" is just as mentally stunted a policy as "Allways disbelieve the accuser." or "Do nothing."
It is horrifically open to abuse and from ample experience we know people will do this to total strangers just for "fun". And that is even before getting to the loons out there who think that "he looked at me from across the room" is harassment or outright rape. And it is how we have this problem of we can NEVER just believe the accuser.

No, you believe the accusation is serious (believe the accuser). The accusation is "he looked at me with rape eyes across the room". You then evaluate the accusation to make sure you understand it. Maybe the accuser is being emotional and you find out from talking to them that there is a restraining order in place.

This all comes from not enough attention being given in the past. And, again, this is common HR practice as well, not a convention thing or a "woke" thing.

Now, if the accusation is shown to be false, you then react to that, but in the interests of safety you need to "believe" it as in act if it were true from the beginning.

Long-time lurker, 1st-time poster here. Hello!

The "SJWs" have had a long run of semi-slander @ Bill Webb, Frank Mentzer, and other persons identified with the "OSR". Remember it was Webb who teamed with Clark Peterson to bring an "OSR-like vibe" WITH White Wolf (a traditional 'narrative' game company). The WW faithful probably never forgave this slight.

So the WW SJWs go after Webb online, with the named defendants in the new lawsuit, stalking Webb wherever he tries to do business. Obviously actionable from a legal perspective but, the harassers can't see this blinded by their emotional link to WW. They trash Webb for YEARS over an event that has serious issues in how it was reported, largely online. Webb endures the harassment, until, FGG makes a deal with Steve Jackson Games.

SJG is looking to return to relevance with a company (FGG) noted across the industry for adventure design. Makes sense. But, the SJWs show up to crush the deal. Webb did something wrong years ago and no one should do business with him. Period.

Problem is, this is SJG. Steve Jackson's no pauper. And he has what he needs to not be pushed around online by the SJWs. GURPS. Munchkin. The Ogre 6e kickstarter was one of the largest-funded EVER. He's was the youngest TTRPG designers inducted into the Origins Hall of Fame.

Do you really want to f*** with this guy? Sure, the SJWs do. I think, they will regret it.

I think, since SJG is based out of Texas and the law firm for the suit is also, based out of
Texas, this could get very ugly for the SJWs.

And, it's good for the hobby. SJWs have been imposing themselves on us for over a decade.
They tell us "playing way X is WRONG" despite guidebooks that read otherwise. SJWs want
TTRPG gamers to embrace a 'certain policy' that fits their agenda. Many SJW 'gamers' represent
an idea that TTRPGs should be played ' a certain way'.

And this is wrong. You cannot force gamers to play the way you want. You cannot dictate play
across the hobby 'because you say so'. You cannot change organized play events simply because
you want to. Organized play is a HUGE cash-cow for WoTC & Paizo. We've seen PF shift along SJW lines,
but D&D can't afford to alienate games with SJW-sensitive revisions to Organized Play.

You think the change is coming, but the game will not allow it. This lawsuit is proof: find the
most vocal SJWs and make them prove what they have been spewing across the internet for
years.

From what I've seen, the SJWs have made the plaintiff's case. They've, in my opinion, defamed
and slandered Bill Webb BEYOND what he's done AND impacted his ability to do business with
other companies. So, 'YAY' for the SJWs, but, 'NO' - a line was crossed and let's work it all out
in court.

The defendants will lose. They can settle to avoid serious damage, but the long-term effects to
sites like RPG.net & Enworld.com COULD be disastrous. Those sites foster SJW ideology, and they
would be the next tier of legal action.

I could be completely incorrect here. Thoughts?

Boy I really love differing opinions. However honestly my opinion should be considered the standard opinion; other opinions should also be considered below mine since I have the moral high ground according to what I feel.

I don't particularly care for facts or concrete observations or testimonies. I think we should skewer people based on my opinions because they deserve to be because I say so (and so do my friends). I'm also not shy about organizing media campaigns around skewering people on them because they definitely do deserve to be. It's actually extremely righteous of me to be honest. Do you not agree? Well, I'm going to skewer you too.

I will also bury any opinion you have on the subject perceived to be underneath my own commentary and those of my cohorts. I do value rational discourse very much and above all, and I am entirely willing to discuss anything so long at it is my opinion. Thank you for your valuable and independent thoughts and perspectives on these matters. I will be sure to have your thoughts curated on your behalf for the benefits of others in case you care to deviate from what I fully believe to be true, despite the fact that I'm not sure I have actually read anything about the issue in question; however I am VERY sure I know what I'm talking about and how offended I am and what the truth REALLY is. Seriously just trust me.

Please stop presenting me your so-called "evidence." Not interested.

I say, at this point, let the courts decide what makes sense here.

I'm tired of internet opinion. Even mine. Let us see what the law has to say, then move forward towards the best gaming experience possible.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084711No, you believe the accusation is serious (believe the accuser). The accusation is "he looked at me with rape eyes across the room". You then evaluate the accusation to make sure you understand it. Maybe the accuser is being emotional and you find out from talking to them that there is a restraining order in place.

This all comes from not enough attention being given in the past. And, again, this is common HR practice as well, not a convention thing or a "woke" thing.

Now, if the accusation is shown to be false, you then react to that, but in the interests of safety you need to "believe" it as in act if it were true from the beginning.

It also used to be common practice to enslave people, or where I'm from to eat their still beating heart. This is an argument from tradition, the fact that is tradition (common practice) doesn't make it okey.

I remove you from the convention, doesn't have a huge impact true, but then the woke crowd can use that to point at you as a sexual harasser.

Now, in the workplace, if you're suspended during the investigation (for reasons) so should be the accuser, and if I fire you prior any investigation then there's harm. Not only the job loss but again the woke crowd can us it and point at you as a sexual harasser.

You can take the accusation seriously without believing it happened, and that's how it should be. Anything else in unjust to the accuser and the accused. And it's fertile ground for abuse.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1084719It also used to be common practice to enslave people, or where I'm from to eat their still beating heart. This is an argument from tradition, the fact that is tradition (common practice) doesn't make it okey.

I remove you from the convention, doesn't have a huge impact true, but then the woke crowd can use that to point at you as a sexual harasser.

Now, in the workplace, if you're suspended during the investigation (for reasons) so should be the accuser, and if I fire you prior any investigation then there's harm. Not only the job loss but again the woke crowd can us it and point at you as a sexual harasser.

You can take the accusation seriously without believing it happened, and that's how it should be. Anything else in unjust to the accuser and the accused. And it's fertile ground for abuse.

This is not an appeal to tradition, this is a pretty new practice in corporate HR and it comes from companies being sued for and losing tons and tons of money. Now there are policies and procedures that protect the accuser. Same thing for cons these days. Don't want to have a harassment policy because you want to make a stand because all gamer are nice? Legal liability goes up. Ignore a complaint and something bad happens?  Very negative liability results.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084721This is not an appeal to tradition, this is a pretty new practice in corporate HR and it comes from companies being sued for and losing tons and tons of money. Now there are policies and procedures that protect the accuser. Same thing for cons these days. Don't want to have a harassment policy because you want to make a stand because all gamer are nice? Legal liability goes up. Ignore a complaint and something bad happens?  Very negative liability results.

Appeal to tradition (also known as argumentum ad antiquitatem,[1] appeal to antiquity, or appeal to common practice) is an argument in which a thesis is deemed correct on the basis that it is correlated with some past or present tradition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition

Nah, that is just dismissive bullshit where you attach something to a tired argument fallacy instead of actually looking at the argument. I listed the reasons why it is good, I did not say that others do it so you should. How about thinking a little instead of misusing logical fallacies? Explain why there should be no policy and why the default should not be to treat any accusation seriously (believe the accuser).

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084730Nah, that is just dismissive bullshit where you attach something to a tired argument fallacy instead of actually looking at the argument. I listed the reasons why it is good, I did not say that others do it so you should. How about thinking a little instead of misusing logical fallacies? Explain why there should be no policy and why the default should not be to treat any accusation seriously (believe the accuser).

Care to cite where I say there should be no policy or matters shouldn't be investigated?

Quote from: SHARK;1083763I don't know much about DF or K and K. I have nothing against either of them. I don't know who K and K is.

I know I'm way late too the party on this (catching up on threads I haven't been reading...), but here's my take:

I've never had a problem on Dragonsfoot or on the Knights & Knaves Alehouse. (I'm a member at both sites.)

I think of Dragonsfoot as a "mainly TSR D&D" site. That's all the TSR D&D editions. Other games, too, but mainly TSR D&D. The discussions there are wide-ranging, incorporating everything from original D&D through B/X and BECMI to 2e AD&D. They have separate forums for the different editions. You can talk about "mixing editions," but it's polite to avoid doing that in the edition-specific forums (although each edition-specific forum has its own set of "social norms" -- you might get some flack for talking about 2e stuff in the 1e forum, but you're probably fine talking about 1e stuff in the 2e forum, for example). You can talk about other games, too, but mainly in their specific forums (if the game has one) or "Other Games" forum (if it doesn't).

I think of the Knights & Knaves Alehouse as a place with a laser-like focus on 1e AD&D and (to a lesser extent) original D&D. If you're interested in the site's focus, there's no better place for high quality discussion of those games without a lot of tangents/distractions. If you want to talk about B/X or BECMI or 2e or 3e/4e/5e, or how you're mashing up 5e with 1e for a Planescape campaign, then the Alehouse is not the site for you. There is some discussion of other games in designated forums, but it is minimal compared to the 1e and original D&D stuff, and the scope of "other games" is limited to what the site considers to be within its focus. (The Alehouse is also the "home/birthplace" of OSRIC -- the 1e AD&D retro-clone -- but there's not really much OSRIC-specific discussion, there. Rather than talking about OSRIC, everyone tends to talk about 1e AD&D.)

DF is more "big tent" and forgiving of off-topic posting. The Alehouse is more focused and much less tolerant of off-topic posting. I think that's why the Alehouse rubs some the wrong way. But like I said, I've never had a problem there, and if you're interested in 1e AD&D and original D&D, the signal-to-noise ratio is very good. If the Alehouse's focus on 1e and original D&D (and exclusion of other editions) pisses you off, just walk away. You'll be happier and the denizens of the Alehouse won't care if you're pissed off or not, in any case.

Quote from: Theory of Games;1084717I say, at this point, let the courts decide what makes sense here.

I'm tired of internet opinion. Even mine. Let us see what the law has to say, then move forward towards the best gaming experience possible.

Problem is. This is not just "internet opinion" this is the lunacy spilling over into real life more and more. Jobs ruined. Reputations ruined. Probably people falsely sent to jail or worse.

We have seen it before with the old "prude patrol" and "moral guardians" who sure as hell did not stop at just online or handing out pamphlets before the internet really kicked off. It is too easy to dismiss those silly pamphlets and say "I am tired of these pamphlets preaching that Mickey Mouse is pornography." until one day you go to Disney World and theres no mouse. These things start small and then spread their venom until enough are poisoned that they can try attacking those they disapprove. And then it usually escalates from there.

Unfortunately the sad truth is that if the lawsuits are successful it likely wont stop these nuts from going after someone else as more often people will cave in or bend knee because they dont have the clout to fight back. Or are allready infiltrated.

But remember. This is all for your own good! We have to clean up the industry so people will respect us.