Quote from: S'mon;1084624You don't need an exploitable "anti-harassment policy" to do that, though.

Makes me wonder if bars and pubs now need anti-harassment policies to kick out drunks.

Greetings!

Hey there my friend! Good points. I don't really understand all of the sobbing hysteria that conventions need to form committees, and have uber anti-harassment policies in place, and blah, blah, blah. Fucking many years ago, I used to do professional security, at various businesses and locations. Most "policies" is having a pair of large, buffed and hard charging professional security officers pull some jackass into a side hall, after questioning any other salient parties, and saying, hey, fuckstick, act like a jackass to her again, or anyone, and one of two things happen; (1) We throw you the fuck out of here; (2) If you are really clueless, we not only throw you the fuck outta here, but we also have our friends in the police waiting at the door to arrest you, and take you to jail.

Are we clear?

Such policies work wonders in all manner of social entanglements where there are "patrons" as guests at a location where management expects people to have fun, and conduct themselves with courtesy, manners, and decorum. This isn't rocket science. Whether such security teams are uniformed, or merely wearing suit and tie, armed and unarmed, such security forces work quite well. That's why there's a bazillion businesses and locations everywhere that employ them.

Except when dealing with drunk people, such security presence works the vast majority of the time, with few problems. Bar and club security typically have riders which permit them swift physical responses against whatever drunk problems there may be. I have a couple of Hispanic friends that do security. Big, hard looking guys, armed to the teeth. At their clubs, yeah, patrons say oh, I'm sorry sir, right away. They fucking behave or they get fucking jackhammered. These guys don't fucking play games. There's a fuckload of interpersonal arguments and problems between patrons/guests/customers/fans that get sorted out just fine with no threats required, merely forcing two parties to shut the fuck up, calm down, and show some respect for each other. And so on, lots of actual disputes and issues dealt with successfully, all without social media drama and all the hand-wringing BS.

I'm honestly having a hard time believing that if these fucking conventions actually had some on-point professional security, that there would be virtually zero problems. There is no need for "Anti-Harassment" policies. Just some professional security teams and management that doesn't tolerate BS from anyone.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Haffrung;1084633That's a good question. Why do gaming conventions need a different set of rules from bars?

Well, just to get started, bars are for adults age 21+. gaming conventions cater to all ages.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1084637Well, just to get started, bars are for adults age 21+. gaming conventions cater to all ages.

Explain why this indicates an anti-harassment policy.

(I regularly play D&D in pubs with children BTW, my own & those of friends etc.)

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084608I think that Paizo Con did the right thing a few years ago if they asked Bill Webb to leave. The policy of believing the accuser, taking them seriously is important for safety for con attendees. Believing the accuser means taking action as if the accusation was true and treating it seriously. It does not mean unquestioning acceptance of an investigation reveals otherwise and it does not mean launching a crusade against the accused on social media.

It appears that Total Con is inviting Bill Webb back. He has attended several other cons since the incident took place. The initial report by his partners said they instructed him to act differently. Since I trust the con organizers in many other ways, I am willing to accept their judgment on a guest. If I disagree, I can either not go or I can go and avoid the guest. I also don't mind complaining about it in public in terms of attending the con, but there are limits to this.

"Believing the accuser" always leads to ugly results, lynchings back in the day and now virtual lynchings. No, the convention needs to investigate prior to taking any action, and both the name of the accuser, the accused and the thing must be kept under wraps unless it's proven that something happened, BY THE EFFING POLICE!

The convention isn't a law enforcement organization and knows jack shit about investigating a crime, things have come to a point that if you didn't go to the police and start talking in social media I assume you're lying.

Innocent until proven guilty isn't only the law, it's a good idea, rather 10 guilty ppl go free than 1 innocent is unjustly incarcerated.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1084645"Believing the accuser" always leads to ugly results, lynchings back in the day and now virtual lynchings. No, the convention needs to investigate prior to taking any action, and both the name of the accuser, the accused and the thing must be kept under wraps unless it's proven that something happened, BY THE EFFING POLICE!

The convention isn't a law enforcement organization and knows jack shit about investigating a crime, things have come to a point that if you didn't go to the police and start talking in social media I assume you're lying.

Innocent until proven guilty isn't only the law, it's a good idea, rather 10 guilty ppl go free than 1 innocent is unjustly incarcerated.

Greetings!

I agree, GeekyBugle. However, whenever any of us have suggested or referenced others that have said such people should call the police, in such matters the alleged "victims" and all of the sobbing cucks bristle at you for suggesting getting the police involved and filing charges. They always have a dozen convenient excuses about why the police were not called, or why filing a report with police won't somehow be sufficient.

Amazing. If you or a friend, etc, where harassed in some other venue--parades, concerts, events, what have you--security would be called, and the problem swiftly dealt with, and/or police would be summoned, reports made, and the problm solved. Somehow, though, none of those normal procedures are sufficient for a game convention.

Instead, we have to have endless social media drama and lynch mobs, ruin companies and reputations, and have ideological boycotts. All with zero real evidence, but lots of shrieking and sobbing.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Brad;1084623I've played in Bill Webb's convention games what, three or four times? Seen him at at least six conventions total. That dude is 1) super friendly, 2) extremely high strung, 3) and drinks heavily. His wife and kids are usually with him, which makes this whole thing seem suspect...at 2AM when someone has been drinking throughout the entire day still seems 100% lucid and "into gaming", while talking about his kids in front of a bunch of gamers with his wife present, it almost makes zero sense to me he'd be hitting on some young girl. Like when would he have the time? The dude is frantic as shit, running a ton of games and basically shilling his company. I'm inclined to agree with the whole offered the girl a cigarette and she freaked out. Even if it was a pass, so what? FGG telling Bill Webb to avoid talking to young autistic millennials who take everything out of context? Could totally see that happening. Bill Webb sexually assaulting someone? Nope.

My experiences with Bill are very similar and my conclusion's the same.

Quote from: SHARK;1084648Greetings!

I agree, GeekyBugle. However, whenever any of us have suggested or referenced others that have said such people should call the police, in such matters the alleged "victims" and all of the sobbing cucks bristle at you for suggesting getting the police involved and filing charges. They always have a dozen convenient excuses about why the police were not called, or why filing a report with police won't somehow be sufficient.

Amazing. If you or a friend, etc, where harassed in some other venue--parades, concerts, events, what have you--security would be called, and the problem swiftly dealt with, and/or police would be summoned, reports made, and the problm solved. Somehow, though, none of those normal procedures are sufficient for a game convention.

Instead, we have to have endless social media drama and lynch mobs, ruin companies and reputations, and have ideological boycotts. All with zero real evidence, but lots of shrieking and sobbing.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Hey there Shark!

They don't want the police involved because then they loose the power to destroy lives without a single shred of evidence, never mind what excuses they give you, it's only excuses.

And worst of all, lets say something did happen, is the accuser's word enough to prove who did it? Not in a court of law, and this is smart, because if you jail an innocent then the guilty party is still out there, free to do it over and over again and it will be harder to find him/her.

So, in every case if you really want the guilty to pay you need to involve the police and let them investigate and accept the outcome, sure some guilty ppl will go free for lack of evidence. Way better than getting an innocent in jail and have the serial offend free to do bad shit no?

Therefore, since it doesn't make sense to ask "believe the "victim"". I must assume it's not about justice but about power.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1084651Hey there Shark!

They don't want the police involved because then they loose the power to destroy lives without a single shred of evidence, never mind what excuses they give you, it's only excuses.

And worst of all, lets say something did happen, is the accuser's word enough to prove who did it? Not in a court of law, and this is smart, because if you jail an innocent then the guilty party is still out there, free to do it over and over again and it will be harder to find him/her.

So, in every case if you really want the guilty to pay you need to involve the police and let them investigate and accept the outcome, sure some guilty ppl will go free for lack of evidence. Way better than getting an innocent in jail and have the serial offend free to do bad shit no?

Therefore, since it doesn't make sense to ask "believe the "victim"". I must assume it's not about justice but about power.

Greetings!

Exactly, GeekyBugle! Damn straight. It isn't a damn thing to do with "justice"--and everything to do with power. Pundit in his videos talks all the time about how SJW's are seeking to invade our hobby, and gain power to control it, in virtually every way. Of course, none of these simpering twits would *ever* lie through their teeth, making false accusations, would they?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1084653Greetings!

Exactly, GeekyBugle! Damn straight. It isn't a damn thing to do with "justice"--and everything to do with power. Pundit in his videos talks all the time about how SJW's are seeking to invade our hobby, and gain power to control it, in virtually every way. Of course, none of these simpering twits would *ever* lie through their teeth, making false accusations, would they?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Those bastions of moral virtue lie? Surely you jest good sir!

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1084656Those bastions of moral virtue lie? Surely you jest good sir!

Greetings!

LOL!!!! Ah, yes. I love it. Oh, and GeekyBugle?

Welcome to the forum here, friend!

This is the best game forum site on the internet. Unlike many sites filled with crazed troglodytes, and supervised by jackboot moderators with delusions of power--here you will find a very high percentage of outstanding people, from many different backgrounds. You may be surprised to learn that many here are military veterans; we have a good array of writers, scholars, and game designers; there are several professors, mathematicians, a few scientists from physics to biology; also musicians and artists; and computer tech people in abundance. The professional and educational experiences of many are all very diverse, interesting, and entertaining at times as well from lots of cool little stories from their lives.

Pour a drink, light up a fine cigar. The "Smoking Lamp" is lit. Make yourself at home here amongst the crew.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1084658Greetings!

LOL!!!! Ah, yes. I love it. Oh, and GeekyBugle?

Welcome to the forum here, friend!

This is the best game forum site on the internet. Unlike many sites filled with crazed troglodytes, and supervised by jackboot moderators with delusions of power--here you will find a very high percentage of outstanding people, from many different backgrounds. You may be surprised to learn that many here are military veterans; we have a good array of writers, scholars, and game designers; there are several professors, mathematicians, a few scientists from physics to biology; also musicians and artists; and computer tech people in abundance. The professional and educational experiences of many are all very diverse, interesting, and entertaining at times as well from lots of cool little stories from their lives.

Pour a drink, light up a fine cigar. The "Smoking Lamp" is lit. Make yourself at home here amongst the crew.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Thanks for the welcome, I know Pundit, have made one livestream with him on my channel of the same name. We agree there's a problem in the TTRPG industry and have been saying so for sometime now. Even when many told us we were wrong, seeing things, reading too much etc.

Hardly a week goes by without something coming to light that proves us right. We need to build an alternative to drivethru, we need to boycott any con that bends the knee to the Baizuo, same with the game publishers.

Too early here to drink, but will be having a scotch latter, stopped smoking a little over a year ago. But you go ahead and smoke what you like.

Quote from: SHARK;1084636sorted out just fine with no threats required, merely forcing two parties to shut the fuck up, calm down, and show some respect for each other.

Very good general advice, methinks.  From the playground to the boardroom!  

QuoteI'm honestly having a hard time believing that if these fucking conventions actually had some on-point professional security, that there would be virtually zero problems. There is no need for "Anti-Harassment" policies. Just some professional security teams and management that doesn't tolerate BS from anyone.

I guess the problem is the cost.

The biggest con I go to is UK Games Expo. Its internal security (i.e. really badge checking for room entry) is by gamer volunteers. I guess that does bring in problems of gamer/geek social fallacies-is-the wrong-word-but-the-observation-is-not-unhelpful thing. I don't know what briefing/training those guys get.

The bars are secured by hotel or convention venue staff.

Now, the tickets for the con aren't very expensive compared to the overall costs of travel and hotels but I assume that they are priced with an understanding that if they were more expensive it would hit attendance. Most attendees are not old fart grognards like me but as we normally go as a family, the £80 for the family for three days isn't negligible. (i.e. that's 2 -3 game books or board games).

What's the marginal cost for expert security?  For many rooms for very long days of gaming? I think if that ticket hit £100 if would be a problem.  The Saturday only adult ticket is £13. I imagine that if that went up to £15 it would have little effect.  

I think it's only busy city centre clubs that have serious security in England. If you need crowd control it's because you have a crowd and that's a lot of alcohol income funding it per hour.

Cheers!

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1084659Thanks for the welcome, I know Pundit, have made one livestream with him on my channel of the same name. We agree there's a problem in the TTRPG industry and have been saying so for sometime now. Even when many told us we were wrong, seeing things, reading too much etc.

Do you have a link to your channel?

Quote from: Snowman0147;1084667Do you have a link to your channel?

Sure do, isn't posting it against the rules?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjC7-w5KDKNiD-k0tVo1DPw?view_as=subscriber

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1084668Sure do, isn't posting it against the rules?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjC7-w5KDKNiD-k0tVo1DPw?view_as=subscriber

Don't know, but could had done by pm.  I should had asked about that in pm now that I am thinking on it.