Quote from: Haffrung;1084098And bars today aren't places where people expect to get hit on.

What fantasy world are you living in?

Quote from: Brad;1084137What fantasy world are you living in?

An affluent, young, Canadian city with loads of drinking establishments. The vast majority of people who go out to bars here never speak to anyone except the people they went with and maybe the server. These are the last three bars I've been to:

https://www.craftbeermarket.ca/calgary/southcentre

Mostly couples and groups of friends from work. Was clearing out by the time we left around 10:30. Didn't see anybody hitting on anyone.

http://www.thepointpub.com/

Lots of middle-aged people from the neighbourhood. There was a 50th birthday parting going on in the back. A couple guys in their early 20s played and sang while a table of middle-aged couples, presumably including their parents, cheered them on.

http://brokencity.ca/patio/

A dozen people chilling on a patio on a Sat afternoon. Nobody hitting on anyone.

Maybe it's the word 'bars' that people are having trouble with. Are you thinking nightclubs? Or are you guys teetotal 50-somethings living in bumfuck USA who don't actually have a social life, and get your ideas of how this stuff works from movies and vague memories of the 80s? I mean, Spinachcat admits he doesn't actually drink or go to bars, but he's an expert on bar social norms in 2019?

Unless a bar is recognized as a pick-up joint (and everybody knows which bars those are - there are about 4 of them out of 40 bars in my part of the city) people expect to be left the fuck alone to chill with their friends. In all three of those places I linked to, if a guy pawed at a woman he didn't know and hit on her, he'd get kicked out.

Greetings!

Haffrung, come on, my friend. If you are as experienced in bar-hopping as you say, then you realise there are different types of bars, nightclubs, danceclubs, lounges, and so on. They cater to different demographics, have entirely different "vibes" and while often very distinct between each establishment, some of them change dramatically based on what night you go there.

And yes, some indeed are very much "Meat Markets"--and others certainly are not meat markets, instead catering to a distinctly older crowd, as well as families. Not kids of course, but social family gatherings, definitely not meat markets. However, while the contrasts between these two examples are enormous--lots and lots of other places fall very much in between, and as i alluded to, they chameleon-change depending on the night. Most of them are definitely party-friendly, and hook-up friendly. Well-dressed professionals don't tend to fuck in the bathrooms or bang each other outside in the parking lot like the kids often do--but make no mistake, if the bar is bringing in lots of singles that are 35 and up, even if they're well-dressed professionals and looking all sharp, there's a fuck load of sex going on. Lots of pawing and kissing, and they jet out the door or go upstairs in the case of some party-friendly hotels. Sex and fucking is everywhere, my friend.

Hell, maybe that's a big cultural distinction between Canada and America. I could go to a dozen clubs within a 30 minute drive, all catering to 30 and up, where the drinking and hook-ups would be flying like crazy. Maybe it's the Latin effect, as opposed to often more straight-laced white folks. The Latinas dance and drink like there's no tomorrow. Loud music, screaming, whole packs of women giggling and shrieking, go outside to smoke and get your groove on. Fucking stuff goes on everywhere. The men, of course, typically white and hispanic in such environments, hang with each other, or make circuits of the place, drinking, dancing, and pawing the women. Hell, the women do lots of pawing, too, man. I'm not exaggerating. It's easy; it's everywhere; it's the norm, rather than the exception.

I would have to google and find some prim, proper family place that didn't have lots of smoking hot Latina women grinding the fuck out of you on the dance floor, or snuggling up to you at the bar, or in the dark corner at a table, taking turns drinking shots of tequila, and going outside to smoke, then go back to the dance floor as the DJ puts on some smooth tunes. I'm just telling, you, my friend. I've been into some places like you're talking about, but I'd say they are definitely a minority type of establishment. Also, in some ways, there's more places like that, but they tend to close at 2100 or 2200. The places that are open past 2300 though? Oh yeah, brother. Non-stop hot women, all looking to have a great time, man.

Cities like Santa Ana, Orange, Fullerton, Anaheim, Irvine, Newport Beach, Costa Mesa, Huntington Beach, Lakewood, and Long Beach, all very large cities, I've lived there for years, and they are full of the kind of clubs and bars I mentioned. Very much the norm, I have to say.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Haffrung;1084141An affluent, young, Canadian city with loads of drinking establishments. The vast majority of people who go out to bars here never speak to anyone except the people they went with and maybe the server. These are the last three bars I've been to:

https://www.craftbeermarket.ca/calgary/southcentre

Mostly couples and groups of friends from work. Was clearing out by the time we left around 10:30. Didn't see anybody hitting on anyone.

http://www.thepointpub.com/

Lots of middle-aged people from the neighbourhood. There was a 50th birthday parting going on in the back. A couple guys in their early 20s played and sang while a table of middle-aged couples, presumably including their parents, cheered them on.

http://brokencity.ca/patio/

A dozen people chilling on a patio on a Sat afternoon. Nobody hitting on anyone.

Maybe it's the word 'bars' that people are having trouble with. Are you thinking nightclubs? Or are you guys teetotal 50-somethings living in bumfuck USA who don't actually have a social life, and get your ideas of how this stuff works from movies and vague memories of the 80s? I mean, Spinachcat admits he doesn't actually drink or go to bars, but he's an expert on bar social norms in 2019?

Unless a bar is recognized as a pick-up joint (and everybody knows which bars those are - there are about 4 of them out of 40 bars in my part of the city) people expect to be left the fuck alone to chill with their friends. In all three of those places I linked to, if a guy pawed at a woman he didn't know and hit on her, he'd get kicked out.

I'm having trouble with the word "bars"..? Like, what? Last bar I went to was next to my university, and there were plenty of girls getting hit on and tons of social interaction. So, yeah, maybe you're just going to places with anti-social rubes.

Quote from: SHARK;1084142Greetings!

Hell, maybe that's a big cultural distinction between Canada and America. I could go to a dozen clubs within a 30 minute drive, all catering to 30 and up, where the drinking and hook-ups would be flying like crazy. Maybe it's the Latin effect, as opposed to often more straight-laced white folks. The Latinas dance and drink like there's no tomorrow. Loud music, screaming, whole packs of women giggling and shrieking, go outside to smoke and get your groove on. Fucking stuff goes on everywhere. The men, of course, typically white and hispanic in such environments, hang with each other, or make circuits of the place, drinking, dancing, and pawing the women. Hell, the women do lots of pawing, too, man. I'm not exaggerating. It's easy; it's everywhere; it's the norm, rather than the exception.

Mmmmm no. There are plenty of hot nightclubs in Hamilton, and Toronto that i know of, and I have friends from Quebec that used to visit Miami Beach and complain about how lame it was compared to the nightclubs in Quebec. I expect a lot of it is in the demographics. Go to a college town in Canada or out to the frontier and the bars will be wild, and hopping, I'm sure there are some quiet clubs as well. Haven't been to Calgary though, so am not able to confirm on whether their are meat market style bars, and nightclubs there.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084122Still an assumption that the harassment was sexual in nature with the intention of ending up in bed with the target of the harassment.

I understand where you're coming from, but I think we don't need to defend Mr Webb in order to criticize what is going on with the SJW crowd. I think we're missing the point if we micro-analyze what might or might not have constituted "appropriate drinking", or "appropriate flirting", or whatever. - That's for Mr Webb to do, and if he has chosen not to do it, then we're not at fault for assuming that the accusing party is, in principle, truthful in their general allegations.

The conclusions the SJW crowd is drawing are what's worth debating and rebuking, as you say it below:

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1084122So, again, maybe he has changed his behavior and amended his ways which is a big demand from the thread that this one is pointed at. But the people over there like to argue straw men arguments like how a con should be run when they did not attend and most have not run a con. With gems like demanding a harassment policy when there already is one.

As long as the general situation is okay, we don't need to get back to the formula whenever something unpleasant and avoidable happens. That's why we're supposed to be a community - because we, as a group, can make this right even if things go wrong.

Like in this case: So, at worst, this was a bar fight. It is neither exemplary for the character of the people involved, from what I gather, nor is it an example of what usually happens as that convention. So, common sense dictates that this is reprimanded, sure - but in proportion to the misconduct committed! And that has been done already. If it's not enough, as the SWJs are stating, then I wonder what sort of punishment they want to reserve for people who do the really reprehensible stuff. And bar fights, while, not nice, aren't that.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1084146Mmmmm no. There are plenty of hot nightclubs in Hamilton, and Toronto that i know of, and I have friends from Quebec that used to visit Miami Beach and complain about how lame it was compared to the nightclubs in Quebec. I expect a lot of it is in the demographics. Go to a college town in Canada or out to the frontier and the bars will be wild, and hopping, I'm sure there are some quiet clubs as well. Haven't been to Calgary though, so am not able to confirm on whether their are meat market style bars, and nightclubs there.

Greetings!

Hey there GameDaddy! Oh yeah, there are clubs that cater to college kids there in Orange County, like some clubs in the city of Fullerton; as well as Huntington Beach and Seal Beach. These cities are all very large, though, GameDaddy. The nightlife is definitely primed for *adults*, and as I mentioned, there's a huge number of places that particularly cater to people over 30 years old, and I have to say, Latin is it. Hispanic music, Hispanic women everywhere. And the Hispanic women love looking hot, and getting their groove on. College girls that are 21-24 got nothing on the Hispanic women that are 30 and up. *Nothing* All of these bars and clubs playing Hispanic music, pop music, 80's music, Reggeaton, and so on. There's dozens and dozens of clubs that are full of sex and booze. That's what people are there for. "Having fun with friends" is something of a side benefit, but the main goal is to find some hot thing. Goddamn the Latina's love to strut their stuff and move on the dancefloor. It's a rotating circuit of fun; dance floor; up to the bar; go to table and drink, laugh, chat, and flirt; go to patio to smoke and nibble; back to the dance floor; rinse and repeat until it's time to rock. These clubs always have the music pumping fierce; sometimes they also have live bands. It's non-stop action and fun.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I love how these threads get twisted and people forget the comments that were actually made only a few posts back.

Here's what Spinachcat, a non-drinker who doesn't go to bars, wrote:

QuoteComplaining about drunk behavior in any bar is retarded. Every adult woman knows WTF bars are for. Let's have the barest modicum of respect for women's intelligence. They go in bars to drink and get pawed by "hot guys". They're abundantly aware bars =/= Bible Study.

The assertion was that when women go to bars (not nightclubs, or pick-up bars, but all bars) they should expect to be hit on and pawed. And the bar in question, to get this thread back on track, was a hotel bar at a gaming convention. Do you guys really think that the only reason for a woman to go to a hotel bar at a gaming convention is to get hit on and picked up, and she should expect to be pawed at by drunken dudes?

I stand by my assertion that 90 per cent of women going to 90 per cent of bars* have no intention of meeting someone to hook up with. Which isn't to say it doesn't happen. It's to say it isn't the default. Going out to drink is a normal, common activity for adults young and old, married and single. My 70-something parents go out to a bar a couple times a months, for fuck's sake.

It would be illuminating if the people posting here included how often and how recently they go to bars. I have a feeling there's an inverse correlation between how often they go out and how likely they are to think bars are all debauched pick-up joints.

*For the purposes of this statement, by bars I mean any establishment that gets most of its income from alcohol sales.

So, my contention remains why we're litigating this case here at all. I don't know Mr. Webb, I don't know the accuser. I have read vague hints about what happened. I have read claims that Mr. Webb admitted to it and that the whole thing is verified. What the people at rpg.net don't get is that it's not verified TO ME because it hasn't been verified BY ME personally (because I am not going to rely on anyone else's word here) and I have no intention of doing so. The whole thing is a giant distraction to what I am really interested in and one big soap opera which for me only creates dissatisfaction with the online RPG community in its entirety. I wanna talk games, not what game designers do outside of game design.

The only reason I posted in the rpg.net thread was to get a sense of the forum culture (because I won't blindly believe what anybody here claims about it either). And I did, with a prompt warning received, so that's that. And that's because, unlike the behaviour of some random designer (Mr. Webb) at the other end of the world, the overall mentality in the more significant online RPG forums is directly relevant to me.

Quote from: Haffrung;1084154The assertion was that when women go to bars (not nightclubs, or pick-up bars, but all bars) they should expect to be hit on and pawed. And the bar in question, to get this thread back on track, was a hotel bar at a gaming convention. Do you guys really think that the only reason for a woman to go to a hotel bar at a gaming convention is to get hit on and picked up, and she should expect to be pawed at by drunken dudes?

I stand by my assertion that 90 per cent of women going to 90 per cent of bars* have no intention of meeting someone to hook up with. Which isn't to say it doesn't happen. It's to say it isn't the default. Going out to drink is a normal, common activity for adults young and old, married and single. My 70-something parents go out to a bar a couple times a months, for fuck's sake.

Word. For myself, been to plenty of bars when I was single. Never pawed at, much less disrespected a woman, even at the so-called "meat markets." It's classless. Plus, my momma woulda beat my ass if I had, because a gentleman doesn't act that way. My buddies were the same way. It's bullshit behavior.

No one needs to prove anything to me in particular. I depend on con organizers to make decisions and the right start if there is an accusation is to remove the accused from the site of the accusation is even reasonable. I had to investigate workplace fraud years ago earlier in my career and worked in the same team that investigated sexual harassment claims (that was HR, I am in Finance). I quickly went from assuming everyone was innocent to suspend them and investigate with an almost certain chance that the accusation is true enough that you don't want the accused working at your company anymore.

There is a huge difference between removing someone from a con and organizing an Internet hate mob to hound someone afterwards. Especially when the ones whipping up the mob are suspect at best. There is a big jump from kicking someone out of a con and trying to ban them from the industry and holding everyone guilty by association.

I am not a huge believer in the theory that we are all part of a community, but safer cons and play areas are good for all of us. Threats to the community are not just missing stairs, they are mobs without reason and people that know better but enough the tiny rush of power they get from the mob starting. They are meaner and worse for the industry than the ill they claim to fight. There is nothing about safety for women in the attack on SJG, some freelancers writing a conversion to TFT has nothing to do with an incident at Paizo Con 2 years ago. It is about people that need to do it for their own bad reasons.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1084018Agree, except virtues are never out-dated.  Various pretenses of manners piggy-backed onto virtues in an attempt to gain some of the respect of the virtue?  Yeah, that's been happening since the dawn of time, and no crowd is entirely immune.  A zealot insisting on a particular kind of manners is pretty much a dead giveaway that such a dynamic is in place.  Call me crazy, but I think the virtues currently out of fashion are always the ones most in need of defense.

I wouldn't disagree. But I'm not sure the attack is a big as it seems. Nor am I convinced that such virtues are entirely out of fashion. Feel like volume accounts for much of it. Or maybe some folks just feel threatened. No one's making it literally impossible for me to live according my values. Just sound and fury, man. Sound and fury. The web gave people a chance to vent, and they took it.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1084091And "unwanted advances", uh...you're in a bar. American bars aren't English pubs, but even over there, the pub is a sloppy pawfest at 2am.

Almost none of our pubs are open to 2am. If we're lucky they may be open to midnight these days.

Strangers flirting doesn't seem to happen very much in the English pubs I know (not that I'm out late these days). Did happen last time I was out with a friend in an Edinburgh bar though, couple Scottish ladies flirted with us, which was nice, not traumatic at all.

Quote from: Rafael;1084147If it's not enough, as the SWJs are stating, then I wonder what sort of punishment they want to reserve for people who do the really reprehensible stuff.

Really reprehensible stuff is outside their experience. They're middle-classed.

Quote from: Dr. Benton Quest;1083822Well, we'll see.  I've been reading rpg.net for over 20 years.  I never posted much.  In recent years I've hedged my bets and didn't post because if I had an opinion that differed I was pretty sure it wouldn't go down well.

I'll see how it goes. It might just be I'm not a good fit over there anymore.  Shame really.  I met my local gaming group through rpg.net and have fond memories from there.

I feel your pain. I started reading RPGnet back when it was nothing but reviews and articles. I posted God-knows-how-many reviews there. I even kept up their IRC chatroom when they abandoned it.

I can't stand the place anymore. The Tangency cesspool finally overflowed and filled up the rest of the site. Which is a damn shame.