Quote from: Opaopajr;1083953Please, don't give TBP more traffic. They are like Camelot, a silly place.

Sorry, can't do. I will try to approach everyone with an open-mind and give everyone the opportunity to show their true colors instead.

Nothing seems to be enough for TBP woke crowd. It's  not enough Phil apologized no SJgames and Steve himself must bend over backwards, kneeling, head first on the floor, exposing his throat he can be sacrificed on the bloodthirsty altar of vigilante SJWs. I have never ever seen such insanity and entitelement coming from adults in my life. Plenty of kids who suffer from the second not many sane adults. In any case  most of them act that way because they have an echo chamber.

There is too much concentration on woke here and not the actual issue.

This is a concentrated attack on one individual, Bill Webb. SJG is a side show, it is doing business with Bill Webb that is their problem, not anything in any SJG product.

I can buy concern about him attending a convention. The concern is misplaced, as the reported incident is incomplete and there is no other complaint about him except for drinking, but there is at least one report of an issue at one convention. I would argue that without a repeat incident or a track record of issues (and he has attended other conventions since then with no issue) that the concern is overblown, but women do get treated poorly often enough that there is no hand waving the issue away. I can also accept complaints about him being a "Guest of Honor" because of that complaint. I don't agree with it, but that is an opinion with some basis.

However, punishing him and his company does not meet a reasonable smell test and is just gatekeeping. The reasons cited in the thread are false. As a summary these are:

He is a repeated abuser/sexual harasser/sexual predator/commits assault

- no evidence of any repeat. Incident is reported as harassment, sexual harassment is assumed. There is a report of an assault but nothing more than that even though there is a claim of an injury to someone that intervened but no details on that. Even in the boycott Garycon attempt, the language used was stepped down. This is known to the moderators at the other site but there is zero moderation warnings about assumptions.

There were no consequences/punishments for the incident from his company

- False. One of the partners in the business publicly posted that they investigated it and changes were required. Companies are under no obligation to post specifics, but it is obvious that there are internal consequences to him and that it damaged his relationships within his company.

There were no changes in behavior by him, no apology, etc.

- false, from what I can tell. I have only met him in person twice (last two GaryCons) and there were a ton of publicly drunk people at the bar area and he was not one of them. When pressured about Guest of Honor at Gamehole Con and GaryCon, he stepped down without making a public fuss about it. He attended both Cons and even with a spotlight on him there were no incidents reported.

As a business, FGG has a long history of being inclusive. They were even lambasted for having an all woman team work on their last edition of their S&W rulebook. 5 minutes of research into their freelancers and longer term employees will show inclusiveness far ahead in time of what the latest demands for equality within the industry.

They also (from what I can tell) have a good reputation for paying their writers and artists. So they are a good business in an industry that has many problem children there. They were either the first or the second company to publish a module when the OGL was created and have decades of publishing background over multiple editions. They have steadily supported older style of play which is now back in the 5e rules (one of the reasons why it is so popular again).

The mods at the other site are not refuting exaggerations. They just did step in and remind everyone that social media campaign organizing and other such actions are not allowed, but there have been posts after the warning and no bans while concern trolling is an instant ban.

Again, I have little sympathy for Bill Webb for the consequences of acting poorly. In the brief conversation I had with him he did not dodge the fact that he could have acted better at all. I have not seen him saying otherwise in any thread or post. This is not someone that is unrepentant.

What is happening is that some people are obviously concern trolling for their cause and whipping up uninformed people that want to be supportive. People that know better are not being a voice of reason at all. There is no need to be overly concerned about the accused, there is no claim for special rights for him here, but there are clear lines and FGG is not one person. This is gatekeeping, pure and simple, directed against one man for reasons that have less and less to do with the incident and more and more about their cause.

Their cause is a good one. Making conventions safer for everyone is an excellent reason to advocate. Warring for social justice is good. We all need it, even if we all do not agree with all the definitions, I doubt that anyone here really is against it, just the actions and definitions used. I think their mods need to look hard in the mirror and check to see what they are sacrificing for this and if the facts are really as clear as they seem to think they are. Stopping a business deal between two companies in the RPG space only proves that bullying works, and if anyone already does not know that, then they have other issues. Don't buy the FGG TFT products if you are still bothered, but attacking another company that has a long track record of being good in the industry seems like a poor decision.

Quote from: Rafael;1083947So... I just did what common sense seemed to dictate, and went over to RPGNet. And asked what was the matter. And got myself an almost instant temp-ban.

For asking whether someone could sum up a 25-page thread in a reasonable fashion. After all, it's "only" about going after some of the leading companies in our business in a serious way.

https://ibb.co/RT0wkvW


That's... Remarkably stupid behavior if you are seriously in the game of gaining allies.

Hmph. Like I'm now positively predisposed to listen to any of that drama again.

Oh Zeea the Sellout Bitch.  You see she hated what was going on with Exalted 3rd edition.  She even came to this site to bitch about it a few times.  This all changed when Zeea was offered a moderator position and some other benefits.  Point is she betrayed the Exalted fan base and ultimately herself for what feeble little power she can get.

Very well said MP.


The mods and many of their woke brethren will never do any soul searching. Their site has become a joke in the hobby and instead of toning down the rhetoric they crank it up by a factor of 30. We are not allowed to try and be objective or try to see the other side of the issue. If not we are concern trolling or "it's  because your white and male what do you know" . Or worse only men behave inappropriately apparently  women never get drunk, act up or grope people ever.

The entire middle East will convert to Christianity  in droves before any mod at TBP does any soul searching.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1083979Oh Zeea the Sellout Bitch.  You see she hated what was going on with Exalted 3rd edition.  She even came to this site to bitch about it a few times.  This all changed when Zeea was offered a moderator position and some other benefits.  Point is she betrayed the Exalted fan base and ultimately herself for what feeble little power she can get.

I noticed that too. The type of person you never give any kind of power too. The hypocritical part is once she will step out of line she will whine and complain and not understand why those she betrayed want nothing to do with her ever again.

I suspect, Myrdin Potter, that Bill might sue these people so things are going to get real very quick.

Should have taken bets on the inevitable "now I feel dirty and need a new generic system" thread popping up in response to the lynch mob. At least EABA is getting some love in that thread, though.

Clearly the appropriate action is for them to buy as many GURPS books as they can and burn them.  They should crowd fund a complete buyout of all GURPS products.  There was a helpful thread here a while back where Phil listed all the books that are available to distributors by the case.  They should buy them out and burn them.  They should also offer to buy and burn all the copies they can get of a new edition of GURPS Vehicles should one be printed.  Also they should run a Patreon to purchase any reprints of GURPS enmass and burn them too.

I'm just sayin' I think it would be the morally correct way for the offended parties to take action is all.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1083546The really stupid thing about my supposed 'sealioning' is I suspect I more or less agree with these dip shits, I just literally don't understand what we are talking about and wanted to see something clear and uncoded before adding my own blather to the general chaos.

The problem is you wanted to see something clear and uncoded, which is the one thing they won't provide.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1083551One of the positives of the culture wars is that it's taught me that everybody has the potential to be an asshole, and that everyone thinks their intentions are justified.

Not sure about the last part, at least in the absolute.

Quote from: wmarshal;1083556Frog God Games has admitted to the harassment that occurred at PaizoCon with the statement:

https://www.froggodgames.com/library/?q=forum/response-frog-god-games-events-social-media

Shame the 'victim' requested their IM's be removed from that page.

Quote from: wmarshal;1083557At one point Stacy called for boycotting a kickstarter by Evil Hat Games because she thought it's owner (Fred Hicks) was slut-shaming minis by Kingdoms of Death. Later the Bundle of Holding tried to run a project by which the proceeds from selling Evil Hat product would benefit Contessa. When Fred found out he asked the Bundle of Holding to redirect the proceeds to a different charity, which they did. Admittedly, the Bundle of Holding could have done a better job of coordination and communication, but Stacy used the Bundle of Holding's mistake to declare it doubleplus ungood, and to castigate Fred Hicks for daring to remember that Stacy is a scorpion and will always sting you, always.

Good summary.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1083562The sjw use gaslighting, intimidation, and fear to compel their targets to submit to the will of sjw, whatever that may be at the moment, and has no actual basis in criminal, or civil law.

They do everything they accuse others of doing.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1083574It comes from a Wondermark comic, that caught on.

Keep in mind the hero of that story is the racist.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1083594Everyone else who asked for links to evidence or even a description of what happened, questioned the rationality of damning everyone and everything associated with a given person no matter how removed, etc. just got ordered to leave and were issued warnings.

The only thing worse than asking for evidence is providing it.

Quote from: Aglondir;1083608From the 1995 game Illuminati: New World Order by SJ Games:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3330[/ATTACH]

I sometimes wonder if that game would even be possible in current year.

Quote from: rgalex;1083673I like how they escalated Webb's 'crimes' over the course of the thread.  First he was a harasser, then a sexual harasser then a drunken sexual harasser, moved up to an unrepentant alcoholic and now he's a sexual abuser.

Darn, they were hoping you didn't notice that.

Quote from: Haffrung;1083534I love how these kooks had to invent a new word, "sealioning", to vilify the very act of challenging their assertions.

Every word they've invented (JAQing off, mansplaining, concern trolling, checking your privilege, etc) has been designed to dismiss assertions.

Quote from: wmarshal;1083537The victim of Bill's action had asked that the matter be closed.

Which one? Because the one he's accused of physically assaulting is not the same as the one he's accused of harassing.

Quote from: jeff37923;1083586I wonder if Stacy D. was in contact with Mandy Morbid and encouraged her to go after Zak S. It would weirdly fit the pattern of sociopathic behavior she's become known for.

Quote from: S'mon;1083592Yes, it was Stacey D who arranged the whole thing. That is public record.

Do you have a link to these records? Asking for a friend.

Quote from: wmarshal;1083804One irony in all this is that Stacy still promotes Frog God Games on her website //www.frivology.com/about-me with links to FGG and the product she helped create with them. (Archive at //www.archive.fo/t76cp in case of a later airbrush.)

Won't do her much good either way, as Froggy no longer lists the book for sale anyway.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1083816I don't think a neutrally inclined person could say there is much difference in the quality of discussion between the worst threads here and at TBP.

The difference being that discussion is actually possible here.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1083869If you're not aware of the ongoing drama regarding a former Funimation Studios voice actor by the name of Vic Mignogna (who also plays Captain James T. Kirk in Star Trek Continues, it's understandable.

I'm close friends with people who've worked guest relations at these events, so it's right in my wheelhouse. Who knew anime voice acting would be the source of the first #MeToo lawsuit.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1083869Ty Beard stated last night (and I will link to the stream and try to get a time stamp) that the table top gaming company defamation suit that is coming is more open and shut!

Starting at the timestamp here, a few key details are:

• It's a game company, not a convention.
• It's been going on much longer.
• The accused did not try to prove their innocence.
• The accuser's text messages 'prove' they're lying.
• The lawsuit will not be filed unless a specific 'trigger' event occurs.
• It's every bit as ridiculous as the "Jelly Bean" story, where Vic ate a bean signed by his accuser and said "now I can say I've eaten you".

Quote from: Shasarak;1083934Did anyone else notice that one of the reasons for the ban of Dr. Benton Quest was a post he made in 2012.  2012.

Do you think they have a list, or do they just troll through all of your posts until they find something "problematic" like questioning group think.

Yes. They do.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;1083936there's very very little you can do to catch a ban here.  I think it's using Power Word: Real Name (doxing) and creating sock puppet accounts and that's about it.  Maybe "I created this account just to fuck with this person and nothing else" admissions.

Also Nazi dinosaurs.

Quote from: Melan;1083945Holy moly.



Remember: this is the, er, person who wants to save gaming from itself. Yeah, right. No thanks.

Good'ol Stacy "Notre Dame is a Hate Symbol" Dellorfano.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1083974Sorry, can't do. I will try to approach everyone with an open-mind and give everyone the opportunity to show their true colors instead.

Well that's a lot of repeated Color Sprays to the face. Normally one would get tired...

Quote from: CarlD.;1083225It's an odd geek behavior to require a full explanation to be practically tortured from them line by line. The speed of online communication exacerbates this phenomena.

"Be indignant about this thing!"
"What thing?"
"This thing of so-and-so."
"What do you mean?"
"This one thing. And other stuff."
"What other stuff?

It should be a bannable offence.

Lurtch: you're worse than the Wokists. I hope next time you're masturbating to your midget scat porn you accidentally pick up the Deep Heat for lubricant.

When I read public statements like this that are offered as proof that there are many cases of bad behavior, it makes me wonder where reason has fled to.

From StacyRex's Twitter "I've seen a screenshot of the GaryCon Discord server and women warning other women that a man with Bill's description was hanging out drinking at the bar, hitting on women." They were not at GaryCon and they were not in the discord server, but they saw a screenshot. Yet somehow there is proof that the evil guy was doing it again.

No other details. Like the other claims that it has happened many times in the past but the victims had no clout or voice. Of course, they know because they are not an evil white man and everyone shares freely with them.

This is the quality of accusation being used whip up a frenzy.

In an earlier tweet they claim that Bill has handlers, but somehow these handlers are not there. They don't post what night this was, which is interesting as I know that the two main nights he was DMing to the wee hours of the morning.

Or it is complete BS.

I think if you go back to the Necromancer Games days, Bill Webb has hired a more diverse crew before it was the in and required thing than companies that have been trying have.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1083887But I also don't care to post at places that pretend they moderate out the politics, but allow a relentless, unchallenged drumbeat implying I'm a Nazi.  Manners may be pretend politeness, but there's a point where the people faking it have to be called out or shunned, lest the whole thing collapse on itself.

There were two posters banned over there for JAQ posts. The second one seemed legit. The poster did not know all the details concerning consequences of Webb's actions. Got accused of mitigating the man's actions. 7-day ban. No warning. So, yeah...it’s a heavy hand over there.

It's a sensitive subject, because a lot of boorish (and worse) behavior still gets overlooked. However, I'm not sure the unending recrimination does anyone much good. If the perp is incorrigible, fire away. But if someone makes a mistake, and their punishment runs along the forever track, then how can they ever be redeemed? On the whole, I think we have to remember that marginalized groups are just now pushing back because, previously, they weren't allowed. Some of that pushback is overzealous. But then, the same zealotry, one-sidedness, virtue signaling is here, too. It's just a different set of virtues, some of which are outdated. There's a middle ground, but screamers won't allow it.

Quote from: nDervish;1083951One of the first rules to this game that I learned is that, if you say "you might want to go about this differently if you don't want to alienate potential allies", then that's "tone policing", which is, of course, a high crime.

I'm starting to wrap my head around how the tactics of this conflict work; nothing of this seems very smart to me. Don't those misguided kids learn anything about the differences between effectful tactics and effective strategy, any more? So much noise, and so little substance to all of this.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1083979Oh Zeea the Sellout Bitch.

Just so this is put down in written form, in case this shit every hits the fan for me: As of 2019, I have around 200 posts on RPGNet - since 2011, I think. I have no concept who that person is or was, or what he or she represents. Now, I've obviously been following the thread a little bit further now, and I think that person is now playing the dogwhistle for people to commit some sort of misdemeanors. I have trouble to take that sort of rhetorics seriously; that's a number of very quick lawsuits waiting to happen, as you yourself have commented in another context already.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1083978This is a concentrated attack on one individual, Bill Webb.

What's a potential business side to this? - Would there be any? If Webb stepped away from FGG completely, what's the one thing that changes in a way that couldn't be substituted?

Bill Webb is the CEO and owner. From what I understand they run it more as a partnership, but he is the money guy.

Most of their products are sourced from freelancers or other partners. Bill occasionally writes something, but most is not his stuff.

He was admonished by his partners and from what I can tell has changed his behavior (public drinking to excess). That is a key demand from the other thread and it happened 2+ years ago. The continuing harassment of him and his business is personal and part of a cause.

The historical record is much more in his favor for hiring practices, payment, reputation, etc. Some make veiled references to more than just the Paizo con incident, but no examples or proof is ever offered and everyone is just to accept their stories. Stories backed up with amazing evidence like the post I just made above. Since the incident he has gone to cons and again, other than yelling in social media about what a bad man he is, nothing else other than his events are well attended and he is in demand as a DM.

He also was not disinvited as a special guest/guest of honor, he backed out himself rather than cause more issues for the con organizers.

I am not saying that there is not actually something else, but if you are going to go after the whole group, all the partners and freelancers, anyone that does business with them, I would hope that there is more than some anointed crusaders with claims of wrong doing behind it.