R. Talsorian has great products when it comes to fluff and dripping with ideas and style... But every single one of their systems I've found to be, lacking for a better word.

The Cyberpunk system, even in it's current iteration of "RED" is a hot mess. It boggles me that Kevin Crawford put out one of the most functional Cyberpunk Systems ever created in a single book, based on fucking OSR rules no less (Cities without Number) that neither Shadowrun or Cyberpunk can match.

It doesn't surprise me the Witcher system isn't up to snuff either. Here I'd heard there were some interesting mechanical parts of it too.

Quote from: Orphan81 on January 22, 2024, 01:27:31 AMThe Cyberpunk system, even in it's current iteration of "RED" is a hot mess. It boggles me that Kevin Crawford put out one of the most functional Cyberpunk Systems ever created in a single book, based on fucking OSR rules no less (Cities without Number) that neither Shadowrun or Cyberpunk can match.

Functional, and thematic/flavorful are two very different things though. It's cool that you enjoy an OSR based Cyberpunk game, but that's like trying to play 9 holes of golf with a cricket bat. Can you do it? Sure. Does it give you a good game of golf? No.

I know there are people that use some iteration of D&D for everything they run, but then some people eat the same meal every day too. Give me games with thematic rules, built to simulate the setting, and I'll tweak them into functionality.

Quote from: Grognard GM on January 22, 2024, 11:01:58 AM

Quote from: Orphan81 on January 22, 2024, 01:27:31 AMThe Cyberpunk system, even in it's current iteration of "RED" is a hot mess. It boggles me that Kevin Crawford put out one of the most functional Cyberpunk Systems ever created in a single book, based on fucking OSR rules no less (Cities without Number) that neither Shadowrun or Cyberpunk can match.

Functional, and thematic/flavorful are two very different things though. It's cool that you enjoy an OSR based Cyberpunk game, but that's like trying to play 9 holes of golf with a cricket bat. Can you do it? Sure. Does it give you a good game of golf? No.

I know there are people that use some iteration of D&D for everything they run, but then some people eat the same meal every day too. Give me games with thematic rules, built to simulate the setting, and I'll tweak them into functionality.

I've played every iteration of Shadowrun and Cyberpunk. I was the lead designer on Savage World's "Interface Zero 2.0".
I don't believe the OSR is the best at everything by a long shot.

When I say Kevin Crawford's "Cities without Number" is the most functional, playable, and fun Cyberpunk RPG system, I'm not fucking talking bullshit.

There's literally a free version that just leaves out the Chapter that tells you how to do Shadowrun.
Check it out for yourself.
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/449873/cities-without-number-free-version

Quote from: Orphan81 on January 22, 2024, 03:09:51 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on January 22, 2024, 11:01:58 AM

Quote from: Orphan81 on January 22, 2024, 01:27:31 AMThe Cyberpunk system, even in it's current iteration of "RED" is a hot mess. It boggles me that Kevin Crawford put out one of the most functional Cyberpunk Systems ever created in a single book, based on fucking OSR rules no less (Cities without Number) that neither Shadowrun or Cyberpunk can match.

Functional, and thematic/flavorful are two very different things though. It's cool that you enjoy an OSR based Cyberpunk game, but that's like trying to play 9 holes of golf with a cricket bat. Can you do it? Sure. Does it give you a good game of golf? No.

I know there are people that use some iteration of D&D for everything they run, but then some people eat the same meal every day too. Give me games with thematic rules, built to simulate the setting, and I'll tweak them into functionality.

I've played every iteration of Shadowrun and Cyberpunk. I was the lead designer on Savage World's "Interface Zero 2.0".
I don't believe the OSR is the best at everything by a long shot.

When I say Kevin Crawford's "Cities without Number" is the most functional, playable, and fun Cyberpunk RPG system, I'm not fucking talking bullshit.

There's literally a free version that just leaves out the Chapter that tells you how to do Shadowrun.
Check it out for yourself.
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/449873/cities-without-number-free-version

Neon Blood and Zaibatsu are much better than Cities without Numbers. 

That said, I don't dislike Crawford's foray into the genre.  I've been reading and play testing many of the available cyberpunk games out there and his is one of the better ones out there.  He also gave away the book for free and the only parts paywalled in the deluxe version aren't really going to be missed by most players and GMs.

Quote from: BadApple on January 22, 2024, 03:40:44 PM


Neon Blood and Zaibatsu are much better than Cities without Numbers. 

That said, I don't dislike Crawford's foray into the genre.  I've been reading and play testing many of the available cyberpunk games out there and his is one of the better ones out there.  He also gave away the book for free and the only parts paywalled in the deluxe version aren't really going to be missed by most players and GMs.

That depends on what you want to go for. My favorite Cyberpunk games are teams of Mercenaries taking on various jobs in the setting. I think Crawford's take on that style of play... I.E... being "Edge Runners" or "Shadow Runners" is better than any other I've seen. The math is tight, there are no classes, (Or technically everyone is the new class "Operator" if you want to export it to the other settings Crawford's made) but there's still plenty of customization and chrome variety as you earn cash and level up.

It's dangerous at low level, but characters become much more competent "Street legends" as they get to higher levels.

It rewards tactical thinking and punishes going in guns blazing.

Why do you see Neon Blood and Zaibatsu as being better?

Quote from: Orphan81 on January 22, 2024, 03:51:50 PM

Quote from: BadApple on January 22, 2024, 03:40:44 PM


Neon Blood and Zaibatsu are much better than Cities without Numbers. 

That said, I don't dislike Crawford's foray into the genre.  I've been reading and play testing many of the available cyberpunk games out there and his is one of the better ones out there.  He also gave away the book for free and the only parts paywalled in the deluxe version aren't really going to be missed by most players and GMs.

That depends on what you want to go for. My favorite Cyberpunk games are teams of Mercenaries taking on various jobs in the setting. I think Crawford's take on that style of play... I.E... being "Edge Runners" or "Shadow Runners" is better than any other I've seen. The math is tight, there are no classes, (Or technically everyone is the new class "Operator" if you want to export it to the other settings Crawford's made) but there's still plenty of customization and chrome variety as you earn cash and level up.

It's dangerous at low level, but characters become much more competent "Street legends" as they get to higher levels.

It rewards tactical thinking and punishes going in guns blazing.

Why do you see Neon Blood and Zaibatsu as being better?

Here's my reviews:  https://www.therpgsite.com/reviews/badapple-reviews-cyberpunk-games/

With Neon Blood, it's a tight and well built game using the d20.  Most everything you said about CWN applies but it's just smoother and quicker with my play test team.  It's also got some really good material for it in the form of adventure modules and expansions that fit into the game like a glove.  It's obvious to me the team loves it and is working with it to push it forward.

Zaibatsu is based on Traveller.  The Traveller 2d6 skills system has been around almost as long as D&D have been and for good reason.  I've been running cyberpunk games with Traveller for years so I know it's a near perfect system for the genre.  Zozer games takes that and tweaks it to fit the genre even better.  Admittedly, Zaibatsu is quite a bit more focused as it's written than CWN or other cyberpunk games but it takes almost no imagination to take the system and use it for your own interpretation on a team of operators or edge runners.  It also has some low key but well done tweaks to the old cyberpunk tropes that I think are awesome.  Finally, you can use a lot of the material for other Traveller games (including Zozer's own Hostile, this was intentional) in Zaibatsu with little to no conversion. 

In both cases, PC development is a more gradual slope that the leveling system that Crawford uses.  I think this is the right way to do Cyberpunk.  Crawford's view of cyberpunk seems stuck in 1992 and the genre has since grown.  I think these two games do a lot to bring the past with them into the current world of cyberpunk stories.

Quote from: BadApple on January 22, 2024, 04:20:05 PM
  Crawford's view of cyberpunk seems stuck in 1992 and the genre has since grown.  I think these two games do a lot to bring the past with them into the current world of cyberpunk stories.

This is something I've come to more and more prefer when it comes to Cyberpunk. In my own opinion, I'm starting to prefer the Cyberpunk tabletop's setting of "Alternate History Future" to the attempts at trying to make Cyberpunk stories relevant when we basically live in the modern day Cyberpunk Apocalypse.

Because all of the modern day Cyberpunk stories are really just Transhumanism stories and are more along the lines of "Altered Carbon" than "Neuromancer"... and for my money, Neuromancer and SnowCrash are just more fun settings to play in than Altered Carbon.

As for Traveler rules for Cyberpunk, I already prefer "Stars without Number" to Traveler's own rules, and as it is... Kevin's skill system runs on 2d6 roll and not a D20 roll anyway... so I look at it as sort of the best of both worlds.

These days I'm starting to think it really comes down to *what* kind of Cyberpunk game you want to play. If you want something like Cyberpunk 2077 or Shadowrun, I'd go with Cities without Number.... If you want something more akin to the setting presented in Cyberpunk 2020 than hell... Vampire the Masquerade with some reskinning is better for that.

Quote from: Orphan81 on January 22, 2024, 04:53:27 PM

Quote from: BadApple on January 22, 2024, 04:20:05 PM
  Crawford's view of cyberpunk seems stuck in 1992 and the genre has since grown.  I think these two games do a lot to bring the past with them into the current world of cyberpunk stories.

This is something I've come to more and more prefer when it comes to Cyberpunk. In my own opinion, I'm starting to prefer the Cyberpunk tabletop's setting of "Alternate History Future" to the attempts at trying to make Cyberpunk stories relevant when we basically live in the modern day Cyberpunk Apocalypse.

Because all of the modern day Cyberpunk stories are really just Transhumanism stories and are more along the lines of "Altered Carbon" than "Neuromancer"... and for my money, Neuromancer and SnowCrash are just more fun settings to play in than Altered Carbon.

As for Traveler rules for Cyberpunk, I already prefer "Stars without Number" to Traveler's own rules, and as it is... Kevin's skill system runs on 2d6 roll and not a D20 roll anyway... so I look at it as sort of the best of both worlds.

These days I'm starting to think it really comes down to *what* kind of Cyberpunk game you want to play. If you want something like Cyberpunk 2077 or Shadowrun, I'd go with Cities without Number.... If you want something more akin to the setting presented in Cyberpunk 2020 than hell... Vampire the Masquerade with some reskinning is better for that.

First, transhumanisim has always been a part of cyberpunk.  Neuromancer featured transhumanisim heavily in a couple of different ways.  It actually did deep examination of the idea better that Altered Carbon did.  A lot of people either gloss over or forget that as well as the fact the book ends with interstellar communications between AI from different planets.  (Aliens are a thing in The Sprawl series.)

Second, more of the modern cyberpunk steps away from the "darkest night" dystopia and leans more into how various forms of communication changes society and how not even the best societies are the best for all of it's members.  Sure, Altered Carbon was heavy into transhumanism and the show brought it to the fore but it's not the only newer cyberpunk fiction out there.  IMO, The Expanse is a much better representation of modern cyberpunk than Altered Carbon and it wasn't heavily into transhumanism at all.

If all you want is a retro "guns and robot arms against corpos" then CWN is a good game.  Honestly, that's way more shallow than I want.  Even then, CWN is cyberepunk as it was even before SnowCrash.  Crawford is a good games designer and the mechanics of his game are very good.  However, he's taking some mechanics designed for one style of play and trying to fit them into a genre that really doesn't fit.  (if a PC can shrug off small arms fire in street clothes just because he's a high level then there is a problem)  Also, it's like he gets the tropes and the looks without understanding the underlying conflict, the deeper meaning of the genre.  On top of which, he's chosen to adapt a very small sliver of the cyberpunk genre when there was so much out there in both depth and variety, even if you were to push the pause button at 1992.  It's like he got his whole understanding about cyberpunk by googling it, reading a couple of blog posts, and looking at pictures.  It doesn't even have the depth of Neuromancer and Cyberpunk 2020.

If you want a real understanding for the cyberpunk genre stripped of all it's superficial tropes, read Saturn Apartments.

Quote from: BadApple on January 23, 2024, 07:54:40 AM

Quote from: Orphan81 on January 22, 2024, 04:53:27 PM

Quote from: BadApple on January 22, 2024, 04:20:05 PM
  Crawford's view of cyberpunk seems stuck in 1992 and the genre has since grown.  I think these two games do a lot to bring the past with them into the current world of cyberpunk stories.

This is something I've come to more and more prefer when it comes to Cyberpunk. In my own opinion, I'm starting to prefer the Cyberpunk tabletop's setting of "Alternate History Future" to the attempts at trying to make Cyberpunk stories relevant when we basically live in the modern day Cyberpunk Apocalypse.

Because all of the modern day Cyberpunk stories are really just Transhumanism stories and are more along the lines of "Altered Carbon" than "Neuromancer"... and for my money, Neuromancer and SnowCrash are just more fun settings to play in than Altered Carbon.

As for Traveler rules for Cyberpunk, I already prefer "Stars without Number" to Traveler's own rules, and as it is... Kevin's skill system runs on 2d6 roll and not a D20 roll anyway... so I look at it as sort of the best of both worlds.

These days I'm starting to think it really comes down to *what* kind of Cyberpunk game you want to play. If you want something like Cyberpunk 2077 or Shadowrun, I'd go with Cities without Number.... If you want something more akin to the setting presented in Cyberpunk 2020 than hell... Vampire the Masquerade with some reskinning is better for that.

First, transhumanisim has always been a part of cyberpunk.  Neuromancer featured transhumanisim heavily in a couple of different ways.  It actually did deep examination of the idea better that Altered Carbon did.  A lot of people either gloss over or forget that as well as the fact the book ends with interstellar communications between AI from different planets.  (Aliens are a thing in The Sprawl series.)

Second, more of the modern cyberpunk steps away from the "darkest night" dystopia and leans more into how various forms of communication changes society and how not even the best societies are the best for all of it's members.  Sure, Altered Carbon was heavy into transhumanism and the show brought it to the fore but it's not the only newer cyberpunk fiction out there.  IMO, The Expanse is a much better representation of modern cyberpunk than Altered Carbon and it wasn't heavily into transhumanism at all.

If all you want is a retro "guns and robot arms against corpos" then CWN is a good game.  Honestly, that's way more shallow than I want.  Even then, CWN is cyberepunk as it was even before SnowCrash.  Crawford is a good games designer and the mechanics of his game are very good.  However, he's taking some mechanics designed for one style of play and trying to fit them into a genre that really doesn't fit.  (if a PC can shrug off small arms fire in street clothes just because he's a high level then there is a problem)  Also, it's like he gets the tropes and the looks without understanding the underlying conflict, the deeper meaning of the genre.  On top of which, he's chosen to adapt a very small sliver of the cyberpunk genre when there was so much out there in both depth and variety, even if you were to push the pause button at 1992.  It's like he got his whole understanding about cyberpunk by googling it, reading a couple of blog posts, and looking at pictures.  It doesn't even have the depth of Neuromancer and Cyberpunk 2020.

If you want a real understanding for the cyberpunk genre stripped of all it's superficial tropes, read Saturn Apartments.

Yes but Classic Cyberpunk has always been a REJECTION of Transhumanism and that's one of the things I love about it and I dislike about the direction of things like Altered Carborn and games like Eclipse Phase.

The analogy I've heard goes something like this... a Transhumanist points to their new phone and all the wonderful things it can do for you and how it's improved your life... The Cyberpunk points out how you're still in the same place you've always been and how the Phone has actually made your life worse.

I don't view The Expanse as being "Cyberpunk" either, but rather as well.... Hard Science Fiction. It's a little difficult for me to see where the Cyberpunk elements of massive Corporations controlling everyone's lives and the trading away our very humanity with Technology fits into a setting that's mainly about Politics.

Don't get me wrong, I *LOVE* the Expanse.. but it's mainly a story of nation states in space and the people caught up with their machinations. If we start stretching what "Cyberpunk" is to include The Expanse and say "Oh that's totally cyberpunk" rather than a Hard Scifi story that has some elements of Cyberpunk... than the definition of "Cyberpunk" begins to become meaingless.

Suddenly any Science Fiction story about people struggling in the wake of massive entities becomes Cyberpunk.

And I just disagree with that.

Quote from: Orphan81 on January 23, 2024, 12:17:49 PM
Yes but Classic Cyberpunk has always been a REJECTION of Transhumanism and that's one of the things I love about it and I dislike about the direction of things like Altered Carborn and games like Eclipse Phase.

The analogy I've heard goes something like this... a Transhumanist points to their new phone and all the wonderful things it can do for you and how it's improved your life... The Cyberpunk points out how you're still in the same place you've always been and how the Phone has actually made your life worse.

I don't view The Expanse as being "Cyberpunk" either, but rather as well.... Hard Science Fiction. It's a little difficult for me to see where the Cyberpunk elements of massive Corporations controlling everyone's lives and the trading away our very humanity with Technology fits into a setting that's mainly about Politics.

Don't get me wrong, I *LOVE* the Expanse.. but it's mainly a story of nation states in space and the people caught up with their machinations. If we start stretching what "Cyberpunk" is to include The Expanse and say "Oh that's totally cyberpunk" rather than a Hard Scifi story that has some elements of Cyberpunk... than the definition of "Cyberpunk" begins to become meaingless.

Suddenly any Science Fiction story about people struggling in the wake of massive entities becomes Cyberpunk.

And I just disagree with that.

I agree that cyberpunk is a about the rejection, or at least the critical examination, of the computerization of information and communication.  Transhumanism is clearly a piece of this.  It could be from the exterior, as in Neuromancer, or from the interior, like Altered Carbon.  (I also agree that Altered Carbon could stand to be more direct in it's critical examination of transhumanism.)

Cyberpunk is a storytelling genre that is of the nexus of two things:
1. The critical examination of the computerization of information and communication, ie cyber
2. Characters that feel disenfranchised by society and adopt a lifestyle that is incompatible with mainstream culture, ie punk
Anything else is just dressing.  Cyberpunk can and does blend well with other scifi so it could be a cyberpunk/space opera or a cyberpunk/hard scifi.

Mega corporations need not be an element.  In fact, many great cyberpunk works don't feature corporations at all.  Brazil is an excellent example of this.  I would argue that corrupt or just incompetent governments are more frequently used.

Heavy handed dystopias don't have to be a main feature either.  (One of my favorite cyberpunk stories was about a guy in a utopian future that was a cyberpunk out of irrational paranoia.)  I had previously suggested that the Star Trek universe might make for some excellent cyberpunk storytelling and game play. 

There need not be any form of "hero quest" either.  I would argue that form of storytelling is of some other genre.  The "punks" in Bladerunner were the androids and were the antagonists though made intentionally easy to empathize with.  The "punks" in Neuromancer were criminals out for a big score, not to fix society. 

The Expanse featured "punks" in the form of the crew of the Rossi and communication and the control of information featured as a key element of the stories.  That said, it is a blended genre story with strong elements of hard scifi and grounded space opera.  (You could also throw in international political thriller as well.) 

Circling back to where we started, I think CWN is a good game and I'm glad you and your table found something you're really enjoying.  My opinion holds as to where it stands in contrast to other games but the good game at your table beats out a hundred great games never played. 

Quote from: BadApple on January 22, 2024, 04:20:05 PM


In both cases, PC development is a more gradual slope that the leveling system that Crawford uses.  I think this is the right way to do Cyberpunk.  Crawford's view of cyberpunk seems stuck in 1992 and the genre has since grown.  I think these two games do a lot to bring the past with them into the current world of cyberpunk stories.

Cyberpunk is meant to be an allegorical criticism of corporate/government corruption and rising totalitarianism. It has now instead been largely turned into nostalgia memberberries ("It's like the 80s, but in the FUTURE").

The only way to do a real Cyberpunk RPG today would be if the villain were basically the globalist managerial class and the WEF. Which is why I would ironically be the best qualified person on earth to make that RPG, and am terrified of doing it, because I bank a lot on my games not being political, and this one would be obviously and plainly political because that's the only way for it to be Cyberpunk.

Quote from: RPGPundit on January 25, 2024, 11:38:08 AM

Quote from: BadApple on January 22, 2024, 04:20:05 PM


In both cases, PC development is a more gradual slope that the leveling system that Crawford uses.  I think this is the right way to do Cyberpunk.  Crawford's view of cyberpunk seems stuck in 1992 and the genre has since grown.  I think these two games do a lot to bring the past with them into the current world of cyberpunk stories.

Cyberpunk is meant to be an allegorical criticism of corporate/government corruption and rising totalitarianism. It has now instead been largely turned into nostalgia memberberries ("It's like the 80s, but in the FUTURE").

The only way to do a real Cyberpunk RPG today would be if the villain were basically the globalist managerial class and the WEF. Which is why I would ironically be the best qualified person on earth to make that RPG, and am terrified of doing it, because I bank a lot on my games not being political, and this one would be obviously and plainly political because that's the only way for it to be Cyberpunk.

I run a cyberpunk game using Hostile from Zozer Games and this is largely how I do it.  A large part of the dystopia comes from inept government workers and rich philanthropists that are so detached they don't understand how normal people see them or the harm they do in their "charitable" works.  It is in large part what I think the future would look like if groups like the WEF actually succeeded.  Of course I still have the malevolent puppet masters working in the shadows.

One of the big challenges would be if you made the setting too on the nose that it would cease to be a fun place to play and take on such a dreary tone as to repel players and GMs alike.  I think Neurocity suffers from this despite being quite excellent in every other regard.

I would say that cyberpunk can be more introspective than social critique, examining the individuals who choose to reject society rather than examining the society they rejected.  Even then, this does work better when that rejection is valid and reflects a more modern social structure.  In part, this was my reasoning for arguing that Star Trek might make an excellent setting for a cyberpunk adventure; the idea that even a fully realized utopia will leave some out in the cold. 

Quote from: BadApple on December 03, 2023, 02:09:35 AM
I don't take quite your negative view on it all though, I think the right collection of homebrew solutions could make this game a true top notch game experience.

We should not have to fix things for the game designer. Thats White Wolf and WotC's mentality. "Make the DM and players do the work for us!"

Quote from: Omega on January 25, 2024, 07:53:31 PM

Quote from: BadApple on December 03, 2023, 02:09:35 AM
I don't take quite your negative view on it all though, I think the right collection of homebrew solutions could make this game a true top notch game experience.

We should not have to fix things for the game designer. Thats White Wolf and WotC's mentality. "Make the DM and players do the work for us!"

It is playable RAW but clunky.  I have reviewed far, far worse games in the area of needing to be fixed before playing.  IMO, almost nothing is playable right out of the box and everything gets homebrewed.  That said, I wouldn't offer up any modern R. Talsorian games as recommendations. 

I do agree with the sentiment though; I wish games were more carefully constructed and didn't need a GM to kitbash a game to get enjoyment out of it.  99% of them need it though.

Quote from: RPGPundit on January 25, 2024, 11:38:08 AM

Quote from: BadApple on January 22, 2024, 04:20:05 PM


In both cases, PC development is a more gradual slope that the leveling system that Crawford uses.  I think this is the right way to do Cyberpunk.  Crawford's view of cyberpunk seems stuck in 1992 and the genre has since grown.  I think these two games do a lot to bring the past with them into the current world of cyberpunk stories.

Cyberpunk is meant to be an allegorical criticism of corporate/government corruption and rising totalitarianism. It has now instead been largely turned into nostalgia memberberries ("It's like the 80s, but in the FUTURE").

The only way to do a real Cyberpunk RPG today would be if the villain were basically the globalist managerial class and the WEF. Which is why I would ironically be the best qualified person on earth to make that RPG, and am terrified of doing it, because I bank a lot on my games not being political, and this one would be obviously and plainly political because that's the only way for it to be Cyberpunk.

You do realize you have to make that RPG now, right?