Quote from: Jaeger on December 07, 2023, 03:29:16 PM

Quote from: BadApple on December 05, 2023, 06:52:16 PM
You might want to give Sword of Cepheus a look.  It's based on Traveller.
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/304840/the-sword-of-cepheus

I actually have it. It doesn't quite hit the vibe I'm looking for - still very much high fantasy.

My disappointment with the Witcher is compounded by the fact that I really like some elements of the system.

Skill based, one polyhedral for action rolls, d6'd for everything else. It ticks a lot of boxes for me. To the point that in spite of my opinion of the game as is; I'm still internally debating if it would be worth my while to homebrew it into something worthy.

I understand your frustrations.  I have been doing a lot of home brew for my own fantasy game to the point were it isn't recognizable as any product.  I use Cepheus Engine as a core and I use my own magic system and setting.  I also borrowed from several other games for mechanics and set pieces. 

Here's one more Cepheus Engine product to look at, 1520:HRE.  It's a late medieval historical RPG but it is very easy to bolt on fantasy elements to taste.  It would make a really good setting for a Witcher type campaign.  I did a review a few months back:  https://www.therpgsite.com/reviews/1520hre-2d6-adventure-in-the-holy-roman-empire/

I'm really not trying to sell you a game, I just thought I'd give you some options based on your statements.

Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on December 07, 2023, 05:13:06 PM
...
There was a bit of mixed messaging too. When I got my copy of Cyberpunk 2077 for Christmas, I found out there was a bunch of free stuff with it. One of those freebies was a PDF copy of the 2020 rules labeled, "Cyberpunk 2020 Guidebook." I don't know why R. Talsorian didn't coordinate with CPRed to put in a slimmed down copy of the RED rules like you'd find in the starter set.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great R. Talsorian supports their older systems. But if someone just played 2077 they're likely gonna be more interested in the RED setting of 2045. That would've been the perfect opportunity to give 2077 players a way to look into the tabletop game.

Why the CPRed setting is 2045 and not the same as the 2077 video game that far more people would be familiar with is utterly inexplicable to me.

And on top of that there are enough little rules differences that the Witcher and CPRed are not really cross compatible...

I mean, come on man! How could you miss that?

The "Why the Red" question was directly answered back in the concept stage. They didn't want to spoil any of the surprise aspects of CP2077 with CPR. In theory there's supposed to be a sourcebook or new edition covering 2077 at some later date (probably when CDPR is done with the setting).

So the trend I've seen as a long-time fan of RTG's stuff has been that during the initial hiatus that Pondsmith took from game development, where he went and worked for Microsoft doing the writing and story development for Crimson Skies was that he took a feeling away that RPGs could be more popular if they incorporated some of the design elements of video games into them. Specifically, he called out modularity, limited exposure of choices during initial character creation, and a unification of system chunks that limited the minigames of a system where possible.

He came back from that job and immediately put together CP 3.0, which we all know was a horrible flop, for reasons beyond the most inexplicable design choices (green text! GI Joes!) like the bodgered fuzion system that it was using and the clannishness of the class system that required extensive squinting to bring group of diverse characters together. It just didn't work. From here I conjecture that he got frustrated and backed off cyberpunk for a while.

Cue CDPR working on their "next thing" after the Witcher, an offer to Pondsmith for the license to make a game based on his RPG, and a relationship that probably started with "Yeah, you can use my setting, but I still get reciprocal rights to make the games for it" and "Oh, also, we could do a lot of the game development based on your existing IP, and pull some people in that way."

As for the differences between the Witcher TTRPG and CP Red, Mike was specifically forbidden (according to Lisa) from getting involved in the process there, because in her words "He's a horrible power gamer", the Witcher was entirely Lisa and Cody's project, while he stayed involved (as a member of the team) with the development for CPR.

All that aside, I've run both, and IMO CPR is the more useful of the two, although I HATE HATE HATE the overgeneralization of things in it. As someone who can still quote table blocks from Blackhand's Street Weapons at need, I liked having those little additional bits of customization where you could feel the sort of preferences that exist in the real life gun community (while they ducked the 9mm vs .45ACP argument, they left it in in the 10mm vs 11mm.. 2d6+3 vs 3d6 makes for discussions like "Well, it might not have the max trauma (stopping power), but the 10mm is just more reliable for penetration purposes...). I liked the adjustment to how improvement points worked, but I did feel like there was a bit too much videogameness to some of the special abilities, like the Cop just being able to effectively summon a patrol car. Like how do you resolve that as a GM in an Edgerun? Do you tell the player they had better not use it, or just let them and give them the real consequences of calling in the cops. <shrug>

As for the Witcher, I really quickly stopped liking the crit system. It made everything REALLY deadly for the players, and took too long to resolve for all the NPCs. So I pretty much ditched the "hit by this much and it's a crit" aspect and left it at "roll a 10." I also didn't like the damage numbers much, and I wish there was more of a gradual increase in damage; when you look at two weapons only a couple tiers apart with a difference of +3d6 it seems excessive. A lot of the roles also felt pretty superfluous, and there was something missing even from the Man At Arms by comparison to the Witcher. (Yes, I get that they're SUPPOSED to be the point of the setting, but I always feel like others should be able to play without saying "I suck because I'm not a ..." be it Witcher, Solo, Jedi, whatever).

More generally, for both systems I didn't like the inclusion of hit points rather than the damage tracker. I always prefer to count UP the damage someone has taken rather than down, and I like the variable idea of saving to avoid being stunned or dying.

In a short while you'll be able to get Baptism of Fire, which is an OSR game and inspired by the same historical/mythological sources as The Witcher, I believe.

QuoteIn a short while you'll be able to get Baptism of Fire, which is an OSR game and inspired by the same historical/mythological sources as The Witcher, I believe.

No like not even close.
Witcher world is postmodern fantasy with kinda D&D like races, set in world of late medieval/reneissance, with many asynchronic elements (because this medieval is in fact post-apocalyptic humanity that jumped to other dimension thank you very mach). In terms of sources and inspirations - while there are some elements of Slavic folklor like striga as quite iconic villain, Sapkowski scoffs of idea of Slavic fantasy, because of lack of proper mythology and legendarium compared to Western Europe, and general gist of his world is Germano-Celtic with Arthurian undertones. It's also very Polish in certain sense - but it's 90's Poland not medieval Poland, not even mentioning times of Piast's baptism.

I have great disdain for DIVERSE casting of Netflix adaptation (especially since it was diverse in most handwaveing way) but all defenders of books making claims about it being based on medieval Poland and Slavic mythology were just full of bullshit.

Quote from: Wrath of God on December 16, 2023, 09:05:29 PM

QuoteIn a short while you'll be able to get Baptism of Fire, which is an OSR game and inspired by the same historical/mythological sources as The Witcher, I believe.

No like not even close.
Witcher world is postmodern fantasy with kinda D&D like races, set in world of late medieval/reneissance, with many asynchronic elements (because this medieval is in fact post-apocalyptic humanity that jumped to other dimension thank you very mach). In terms of sources and inspirations - while there are some elements of Slavic folklor like striga as quite iconic villain, Sapkowski scoffs of idea of Slavic fantasy, because of lack of proper mythology and legendarium compared to Western Europe, and general gist of his world is Germano-Celtic with Arthurian undertones. It's also very Polish in certain sense - but it's 90's Poland not medieval Poland, not even mentioning times of Piast's baptism.

I have great disdain for DIVERSE casting of Netflix adaptation (especially since it was diverse in most handwaveing way) but all defenders of books making claims about it being based on medieval Poland and Slavic mythology were just full of bullshit.

I feel like the Slavic stuff may actually be heavier in the videogame(s) especially around the Velen area (named for an old Slavic god iirc) in the 3rd one.

I mean in 1st game there were whole chapter mixing Adam Mickiewicz - famous Polish romantic poet lore with kinda Cthulhu lore.
Needless to say without any basic in books, and nevertheless still quite far from BoF period.

There is Slavic god - Veles - equivalent to Vedic Varuna, but I'm not sure if Velen name is based on him. Wiki implies it's named after elven holiday - and those as all Elven languages in Witcher are Celtic.

Quote from: Wrath of God on December 16, 2023, 09:05:29 PM

QuoteIn a short while you'll be able to get Baptism of Fire, which is an OSR game and inspired by the same historical/mythological sources as The Witcher, I believe.

No like not even close.
Witcher world is postmodern fantasy with kinda D&D like races, set in world of late medieval/reneissance, with many asynchronic elements (because this medieval is in fact post-apocalyptic humanity that jumped to other dimension thank you very mach). In terms of sources and inspirations - while there are some elements of Slavic folklor like striga as quite iconic villain, Sapkowski scoffs of idea of Slavic fantasy, because of lack of proper mythology and legendarium compared to Western Europe, and general gist of his world is Germano-Celtic with Arthurian undertones. It's also very Polish in certain sense - but it's 90's Poland not medieval Poland, not even mentioning times of Piast's baptism.

I have great disdain for DIVERSE casting of Netflix adaptation (especially since it was diverse in most handwaveing way) but all defenders of books making claims about it being based on medieval Poland and Slavic mythology were just full of bullshit.

Huh. Well, having not read the books, I didn't realize that.

So, what you're saying is that we shouldn't...

Quote from: Wrath of God on December 16, 2023, 09:05:29 PM

QuoteIn a short while you'll be able to get Baptism of Fire, which is an OSR game and inspired by the same historical/mythological sources as The Witcher, I believe.

No like not even close.
Witcher world is postmodern fantasy with kinda D&D like races, set in world of late medieval/reneissance, with many asynchronic elements (because this medieval is in fact post-apocalyptic humanity that jumped to other dimension thank you very mach). In terms of sources and inspirations - while there are some elements of Slavic folklor like striga as quite iconic villain, Sapkowski scoffs of idea of Slavic fantasy, because of lack of proper mythology and legendarium compared to Western Europe, and general gist of his world is Germano-Celtic with Arthurian undertones. It's also very Polish in certain sense - but it's 90's Poland not medieval Poland, not even mentioning times of Piast's baptism.

I have great disdain for DIVERSE casting of Netflix adaptation (especially since it was diverse in most handwaveing way) but all defenders of books making claims about it being based on medieval Poland and Slavic mythology were just full of bullshit.

That's not even bringing in the controversy about how much of the Witcher is cribbed (some would say plagiarized) from Michael Moorcock.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkiP64adGjY

Not to mention the elements that look suspiciously like they were pinched from Dungeons and Dragons:

The D&D influence is most obvious in the book of short stories set in the Witcher universe.

But I've always gotten the vibe that it's the authors D&D game with some homebrewed stuff, rather than being based on authentic Polish/Slavic mythology

Well, then get the Real Thing with the upcoming Baptism of Fire instead! It has a Witch Hunter class, regardless!

QuoteThat's not even bringing in the controversy about how much of the Witcher is cribbed (some would say plagiarized) from Michael Moorcock.

While Sapkowski generally is using Western canon of fantasy a lot in his books, I generally consider claims that Geralt is Elric clone to be utterly bullshit.
Not to mention utter lack of essential Moorcockian aspects like Order vs Chaos.

QuoteNot to mention the elements that look suspiciously like they were pinched from Dungeons and Dragons:

See that's because they are pinched from D&D, that's not real secret or controversy.
You also have dwarves, gnomes, halflings taken from D&D (though not half-orcs).

QuoteWell, then get the Real Thing with the upcoming Baptism of Fire instead! It has a Witch Hunter class, regardless!

That's kinda weird setting-wise.
Historically I'd say in this regions something reminding Witch-Hunter would appear like at best in late medieval period.
Of course there would be tension between pagans and Christians, but not like specific Christian units to hunt witches - in fact generally in Slavic territories witches were slowly christianised - to this day you have residuum of it among Szeptuchas (whispering women) popular among Belarussian and Ruthenian minorities in Poland.

To deal with evil witch in Medieval Slavic setting you would either send benevolent witch or volchv or priest if pagan, or well cleric with some retinue of warriors if Christian.

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 14, 2024, 09:50:48 AM

QuoteThat's not even bringing in the controversy about how much of the Witcher is cribbed (some would say plagiarized) from Michael Moorcock.

While Sapkowski generally is using Western canon of fantasy a lot in his books, I generally consider claims that Geralt is Elric clone to be utterly bullshit.
Not to mention utter lack of essential Moorcockian aspects like Order vs Chaos.

The Order vs. Chaos dichotomy does pop up several times in both the books and games, including several conversations about it. it's just more of a background element than a central narrative conflict. Nevertheless, I generally agree with you. I think it's fair to say that Geralt's aesthetics seem to have been inspired by Elric, but as soon as you read the books it's clear that their personalities, goals and narrative arcs are quite different (except that they both die at the end.)

My stance on this kind of "plagiarism" is that it's all about what you do with it. Warhammer is the go-to example. Both Warhammer Fantasy and 40k have tons of elements that are very obviously pulled from other fiction: The Tyranids from Geiger's aliens; the fantasy dark elves from Melnibone, the 40k dark elves from Hellraiser, the high elves and dwarfs from D&D, elements of the Imperium from Dune, the list goes on and on. I suspect that Gotrek and Felix were a conscious effort to give Warhammer it's own Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Ciaphus Cain was inspired by Harry Flashman. And that's not even touching on the historical influences. The thing is that when you take all those influences, blend them together, and then build 30 years of your own lore on top of that, I don't really think the plagiarism accusation is viable anymore. At some point you have to recognize it's become its own thing.

The Witcher setting is kind of the same. It's a hodge-podge of recognizable elements from literature and history, but it's got enough of its own flavor that I'm not too bothered about it. I've got my issues with the Witcher novels, but they're less about plagiarism than they are about pacing.

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 14, 2024, 09:50:48 AM

QuoteThat's not even bringing in the controversy about how much of the Witcher is cribbed (some would say plagiarized) from Michael Moorcock.

While Sapkowski generally is using Western canon of fantasy a lot in his books, I generally consider claims that Geralt is Elric clone to be utterly bullshit.
Not to mention utter lack of essential Moorcockian aspects like Order vs Chaos.

QuoteNot to mention the elements that look suspiciously like they were pinched from Dungeons and Dragons:

See that's because they are pinched from D&D, that's not real secret or controversy.
You also have dwarves, gnomes, halflings taken from D&D (though not half-orcs).

QuoteWell, then get the Real Thing with the upcoming Baptism of Fire instead! It has a Witch Hunter class, regardless!

That's kinda weird setting-wise.
Historically I'd say in this regions something reminding Witch-Hunter would appear like at best in late medieval period.
Of course there would be tension between pagans and Christians, but not like specific Christian units to hunt witches - in fact generally in Slavic territories witches were slowly christianised - to this day you have residuum of it among Szeptuchas (whispering women) popular among Belarussian and Ruthenian minorities in Poland.

To deal with evil witch in Medieval Slavic setting you would either send benevolent witch or volchv or priest if pagan, or well cleric with some retinue of warriors if Christian.

The witch-hunter is a class to reflect the cunning (as in intellect but also in the 'magic' sense) Christians who would investigate and fight dangerous cults, evil witches and monsters wherever they might be found (and in early Piast Poland all of the above were found almost everywhere). It is in fact a Christianized version of the Wolchw/Kresnik.