Quote from: BalbinusBanning players from the DMG is not comparable to living under totalitarianism.

At a human suffering level, no. Because it is just a game, and nobody really dies and they get to go home afterward.  But then Blue Rose is just a game, and having secret rules (and non-rules) is certainly the opposite of egalitarian.  So bitching about some other game or games being all about "elitist swine" while holding up such a model as something to aspire to is assinine.

EDIT: Ding! Passed three pages, this one's done. Catch you next thread folks!

Quote from: jrientsFor a near perfect version of old school D&D run the Rules Cyclopedia but follow Gygax's 1st edition advice.

My first roleplaying experiences were playing the old red box Basic D&D.  The DM had a stack of AD&D 1st Edition books, including the DMG, that he used for advice.  When I look back on those early years of gaming, I remember what a mean bastard the DM was.  He rarely ever actually killed characters, but damn he made some tough dungeons.  Magic and treasure was something to truly savour.  And fuck did he make us crawl through the levels.

The rules were simple, the stories were tight and the game never got unbalanced.  There were no prestige classes, no feats, no attacks of opportunity... shit, there weren't even skills.  

We had no creative agenda, no social contract and no kickers.  

And yet, somehow we all had fun.  More fun than I've ever had playing any game since.  Go figure.

Gary's a pretty experienced dude.  As a gamer and as a designer and as a publisher.

He was right about playing the one true way.  Standardization does make it easier to walk into a new group and know what's what.  He may have been a bit hard nosed about it at times.  Standardization was the goal of AD&D so I can see how he'd find himself in favor of it at the time.

He was also terribly opposed to things like critical hits and you could really see that he was already feeling frozen out of his own creation by the early eighties.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaThe reason I brought Gershwin and Dorsey into the mix was because I once had this very discussion before with a friend of my father's.  I was a teenager at the time, we were all at a picnic where a band was playing Gershwin and Dorsey tunes, and my dad's friend took it upon himself to point out to me that they don't make music like that anymore, and that all of this new stuff -- like The Beatles, for crying out loud -- were all just passing fancy that would be forgotten by subsequent generations.

Beginning to sound familiar?  "My X is better than your X.  In fact, your X isn't even X at all -- it's Y, or maybe even Z."

!i!

 Its actually a weak analogy.

 your kilometerage may vary.

 - E.W.C.

It's easy to grab a few pull quotes and make him look...whatever.

Seanchai

Okay I've waded through this whole thread now.

 What I'm trying to figure out is why anybody got mad about what Pundit said in the original post.

 I never played that much D&D  EVER.   Just a little bit when I was in High School.
 My "gateway" game into the fun side of the hobby was the original TRAVELLER. (guess that makes me odd to start with.)

 That being said - the few lines that Pundit man quoted still seem like pretty good advice 25 years after Gygax wrote them.  I don't think Gygax is genuius or anything - but he did have some good ideas some of the time.

 As for the idea that players shouldn't read the Dungeon Master's guide - that just makes sense. Why would they want to ?  Unless they plan to be the DM of a future session.
 When I used to play a character - I just *PLAYED*. I never wanted to cheat or get "players advantages".  My thought was "Does my character really know this stuff?" . If my character doesn't need to know it for the immediate game session or the next one - then I don't need to read it.

- E.W.C.

Quote from: RPGPunditYou're the one who picked apart the quote and interpreted it completely out of its context.

You quoted 102 words. That's not exactly a lot of context.

Seanchai

Quote from: KoltarWhat I'm trying to figure out is why anybody got mad about what Pundit said in the original post.

It's a tiny fragment of what Gygax has said over the years and is not necessarily representational of his views. If it's good advice—and it's taken out of context here, so it's hard to know for sure—it's countered by plenty of bad advice, etc..

Seanchai

So, essentially, you will not accept an argument in any case. In which case why bother?

Quote from: RPGPunditAll of these are from the AD&D 1st edition DMG (page 7), and pretty well define important aspects of RPGs, not to mention express what a fucking genius Gary Gygax really is.

Cyborg Commando. Dangerous Journeys. Lejendary Adventures.

QuoteGary said:
1. "As a participant in the game, I would not care to have anyone telling me exactly what must go into my campaign, and how it must be handled; If so, why not play some game like chess? "

Class level limits for races.

Quote2. "As the author I also realize that there are limits to my creativity and imagination.  Others will think of things I didn't, and devise things beyond my capability."

OK, +1 to the EGG.

Quote3. "As an active Dungeon Master I kept a careful watch for things which would tend to complicate matters without improving them..."

Initiative and surprise. Unarmed combat. Weapon modifications to AC. Psionics.

Quote4. "...(and) rules which lessened the fantastic and unexpected in favour of the mundane and the ordinary"

The World of *yawn* Greyhawk.

Quote from: levCyborg Commando. Dangerous Journeys. Lejendary Adventures

For what it's worth, Frank Mentzer has publicly taken the lion's share of the blame for Cyborg Commando.

Quote from: levClass level limits for races.

You state that as if everyone is going to automatically agree that the concept was bad from the beginning.

Quote from: levInitiative and surprise. Unarmed combat. Weapon modifications to AC. Psionics.

Crunchy weapon rules were a player-requested modification of Gygax's original "every attack does d6" method.  The psionics system was not a Gygax invention.  If you want to go after the man, please pick your attacks more carefully.

Quote from: levThe World of *yawn* Greyhawk.

Okay, this one is just fucking ridiculous.  So Greyhawk doesn't light your jets?  Who the hell are you and why should I care?  I got a legion of RPGA nerds over here who still play in that setting every weekend.  Many of my best gaming experiences were in that yawn-inducing realm.

Quote from: jrientsOkay, this one is just fucking ridiculous. So Greyhawk doesn't light your jets? Who the hell are you and why should I care? I got a legion of RPGA nerds over here who still play in that setting every weekend. Many of my best gaming experiences were in that yawn-inducing realm.

There's another Greyhawk RPGA campaign starting up in the spring here, and folks are plenty psyched about it.  Greyhawk rawks.
 
Lev, from what I've seen from you regarding D&D, you may not care, but if you really wanted to learn a little bit more about Gygax, his influence on the hobby, and his ideas of what an RPG should be or include, perhaps you should look up some of his interviews, or the Q&A threads on ENWorld.

Beware the attack of the Levites....They can only be killed by removal of the head, destruction of the brain or dismemberment.

Oh hang on, that'd deadites ain't it? :haw:

Out of curiosity  - What was so damn wrong about the original /first post ?

- E.W.C.

Quote from: KoltarOut of curiosity  - What was so damn wrong about the original /first post ?

"It's a tiny fragment of what Gygax has said over the years and is not necessarily representational of his views. If it's good advice—and it's taken out of context here, so it's hard to know for sure—it's countered by plenty of bad advice, etc.."

Seanchai