The Wisdom of Gary Gygax: Guidelines for Game Designers

James McMurray · February 06, 2007, 12:57:10 PM

Quote from: jgantsPut it this way - I know classical music when I hear it. I know rap when I hear it. But I don't have a set of rules to tell me why - I just know.

Rap has a guy talking in a sing-song format. Classical music involves classical instruments. Obviously there's more, but the point is that definitions do exist for those things (and indeed all taxonomies I can think of off the top of my head).

QuoteOr TV shows - everyone who watches them (or even sees a commercial) knows Two and a Half Men is meant to be a comedy, CSI is a crime procedural, and ER is a drama. But can Joe Blow off the street explain why - I doubt it. That doesn't mean he doesn't know a comedy or a drama when he sees one.

Comedies tell jokes and usually have a laugh track. Crime procedurals generally deal with crime procedures. Dramas are frequently more dramatic. Again, definitions exist.

jrients · February 06, 2007, 12:57:43 PM

Yeah, but I too know an RPG when I see one. I've played Nobilis. It's not to my tastes but by my lights its an RPG. Dawn Patrol is as much an RPG as the original little beige books, arguably more so in at least on dimension.

What bugs me about trying to draw these bright lines is that there is always somebody left on the wrong side of it. Always. And sometimes that seems to be the point. One of the reason these distinctions are made is to exclude others. I don't dig that.

The Yann Waters · February 06, 2007, 01:00:12 PM

Quote from: jgantsI mean, you aren't even playing a person - you're playing a force or concept of the world. "I'm GrimGent, a mercenary fighter from Vlargg" is pretty far from "I'm Lost Virginity" or "I'm Disappointment" or whatever.

Sorry, nope. You're playing a person who has been granted immense power over a concept and charged to protect it with his life. You can play a mercenary fighter from Vlargg if you want, but he'll be expected to fight in order to defend something that forces from beyond the universe want destroyed.

QuotePlus, there's no real tasks/challenges - it's a resource management game. You may as well be playing contact bridge: "I am North. I will use my Ace of Diamonds to win this challenge". "Aha. I, West, shall thwart your attempt by using my Three of Trump".

Again, nope. The tasks in the game are not fundamentally different from those in any other RPG, except that they are based on a relatively small number of stats and resolved without dice. They are certainly not as abstract as your example: sneaking past a guard would still be the same sort of a challenge as in D&D, although under normal circumstances no mundane guard could hope catch a Noble.

Ian Absentia · February 06, 2007, 01:07:03 PM

Quote from: blakkieGershwin was Beethoven's Bitch! All that hopping around on the piano keys? Fuck, that wasn't music. More like rats let loose in a concert hall. Tommy Dorsey? Name one symphony that he wrote!

The reason I brought Gershwin and Dorsey into the mix was because I once had this very discussion before with a friend of my father's. I was a teenager at the time, we were all at a picnic where a band was playing Gershwin and Dorsey tunes, and my dad's friend took it upon himself to point out to me that they don't make music like that anymore, and that all of this new stuff -- like The Beatles, for crying out loud -- were all just passing fancy that would be forgotten by subsequent generations.

Beginning to sound familiar? "My X is better than your X. In fact, your X isn't even X at all -- it's Y, or maybe even Z."

!i!

James McMurray · February 06, 2007, 01:07:41 PM

Quote from: GrimGentSorry, nope. You're playing a person who has been granted immense power over a concept and charged to protect it with his life. You can play a mercenary fighter from Vlargg if you want, but he'll be expected to fight in order to defend something that forces from beyond the universe want destroyed.

And arguably this doesn't really matter. It's not "Person Playing Game," it's "Role Playing Game." Even if you really aren't a person, you're still a role.

The Yann Waters · February 06, 2007, 01:10:05 PM

Quote from: James McMurrayAnd arguably this doesn't really matter. It's not "Person Playing Game," it's "Role Playing Game." Even if you really aren't a person, you're still a role.

Hey, it's an animistic setting. Everything is a person.

James McMurray · February 06, 2007, 01:10:56 PM

There you go then. I want to be a table.

jrients · February 06, 2007, 01:12:55 PM

The RPGA once published an adventure module where the pre-made PCs were one human fighter and several sentient magic items.

The Yann Waters · February 06, 2007, 01:13:31 PM

Quote from: James McMurrayThere you go then. I want to be a table.

I've heard of a PC who was a shotgun that could possess people...

Ian Absentia · February 06, 2007, 01:16:53 PM

Quote from: jrientsThe RPGA once published an adventure module where the pre-made PCs were one human fighter and several sentient magic items.

And it was put on trial, condemned as a witch, burned at the stake, and its ashes were scattered to the four corners of the Earth.

Oh, wait. It wasn't even a person, so they couldn't have done that.

!i!

blakkie · February 06, 2007, 01:28:27 PM

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaAnd it was put on trial, condemned as a witch, burned at the stake, and its ashes were scattered to the four corners of the Earth.

Oh, wait. It wasn't even a person, so they couldn't have done that.

Yeah, they couldn't call it a witch.

RPGPundit · February 06, 2007, 02:14:39 PM

Quote from: blakkieEr, wouldn't that be instead his "correct assessment of your one-track mind"? :rolleyes:

His "one track mind" is obsessed with Nobilis. It seems that's all he's usually here to talk about.

And yeah, sure, in this case, he was right on the money. He knows that with me, when I talk about "beancounting", I'm criticizing Nobilis.

RPGPundit

The Yann Waters · February 06, 2007, 02:25:36 PM

Quote from: RPGPunditAnd yeah, sure, in this case, he was right on the money. He knows that with me, when I talk about "beancounting", I'm criticizing Nobilis.

You know, it does sound about as silly as someone calling D&D "an accountant's wet dream" just because you have to keep track of HP.

blakkie · February 06, 2007, 02:26:01 PM

Quote from: RPGPunditHis "one track mind" is obsessed with Nobilis. It seems that's all he's usually here to talk about.

And yeah, sure, in this case, he was right on the money. He knows that with me, when I talk about "beancounting", I'm criticizing Nobilis.

So is often "wrong" about these things?

Balbinus · February 06, 2007, 02:31:52 PM

Guys, could someone briefly summarise for me what the fuck this thread is about? It is most opaque.

In case any of these points are on topic:

Of course Nobilis is a fucking rpg, you might not like it but it's a game in which you play a role, it's as much an rpg as Amber. Whether it's a good rpg is another question, and one I have no strong view on.

Banning players from the DMG is not comparable to living under totalitarianism.

Weebles wobble, but they do not fall down, stamping on them until they break does not count as them falling down.

That said, shatterproof rules do actually shatter, if you try hard enough.