Quote from: droogGary must have had an embolism after that, because I clearly recall him crapping on in Dragon about how if you didn't use the rules as written you weren't playing D&D.

There isn't exactly a 100% matchup between what Gary says and what he does day to day, plus there was still learning going on. This was the case well before he had a stroke. Good god he's the guy that wrote that female dwarf beardarticle in Dragon, and he has admitted it was a full on troll in an actual pay-for-it publication.

Setting aside RPGPundit's "interesting" interpretations and exstrapolations, there are many, many times 1e squeezes out a big curly coiler on top of those guidelines. Those sorts of things are a big reason I dumped AD&D for 3e (well not really #4, but neither one of them is particularly good for that, but the biggest problem there I believe is the structuring towards selling supplement books and those books themselves). Was it "other people" at fault? *shrug* I guess you should look to Lejendary Adventure for that answer. Anyone here playing that right now?

P.S. The choice of "participant" in #1 is interesting.

For a near perfect version of old school D&D run the Rules Cyclopedia but follow Gygax's 1st edition advice.

Quote from: RPGPundit4. "...(and) rules which lessened the fantastic and unexpected in favour of the mundane and the ordinary"

That's yet another frequent problem of many games these days; they encourage routine and mundanity in the system. Players are encouraged to conform to gimmicky systems and funnel their creativity into how they will "define stakes" or where they will put their tokens or how many beans they will invest in their action; but the one thing they're not allowed to do in these games is roleplay outside of the rules.

RPGPundit, could you elaborate a bit on this point? Perhaps you (or someone who understands better about what you are talking about) could give an example?

Quote from: KashellRPGPundit, could you elaborate a bit on this point? Perhaps you (or someone who understands better about what you are talking about) could give an example?

Translation: He's talking out his ass mostly.

For example the rule that he's spit much "gimmicky" venom about, "say yes, or roll" and the Nobilis version "never say no" actually is very encouraging towards people creativity.

Same thing with "stakes", they help to have flexible rules by providing a general framework rather than a set of fixed listing of events that the rules cover.

So, if a game does something different than what one guy said over a quarter century ago it isn't a real RPG?

QuoteTranslation: He's talking out his ass mostly.

Ok.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonBased on what he's said about 3e and his own preferences these days, Gygax prefers rules-light systems. Hence his approval of Castles & Crusades.

Honestly, games are about having fun. I don't want to spend time keeping up with the latest ERRRRRatta just to play a game. It's why I think Living Grayhawk is a big mess (and it sucks bloody balls, ughhh).

D&D is great if you play with the same group for a few years, but those situations are rare. Even then, you *STILL* need to pull the rule books out every once in a while.

There's a good reason why I keep Uno next to my current [R&R] RPG materials. Of course, there's a big difference between "card game" and "RPG game", but you get my point -- play needs to be intuitive and fun.

Quote from: KashellHonestly, games are about having fun. I don't want to spend time keeping up with the latest ERRRRRatta just to play a game. It's why I think Living Grayhawk is a big mess (and it sucks bloody balls, ughhh).

D&D is great if you play with the same group for a few years, but those situations are rare. Even then, you *STILL* need to pull the rule books out every once in a while.

There's a good reason why I keep Uno next to my current [R&R] RPG materials. Of course, there's a big difference between "card game" and "RPG game", but you get my point -- play needs to be intuitive and fun.

Uh, OK. Now relate this to what you quoted from me. If you're gonna try to empirically prove that 3e D&D is not as fun a game as whatever you prefer, or that it doesn't meet these standards for a lot of others - and I do mean a lot of others, since it's the 800 lb. gorilla of RPGs - then there's really no discussion. Just because you have certain experiences doesn't mean they are universal to everyone who plays the game. I know people who can play D&D 3e without referencing the rulebooks, who know the rules that well. Plus the game actually is intuitive, no matter how many times people claim otherwise. Set a DC, roll a d20, add modifiers, compare the result to the DC. Seems pretty simple to me. It's not the game's fault there those who are obsessive-compulsive enough to feel they have to use every single optional rule presented in every book beyond the core.

And at least WotC admits to errata. Just because few other game companies release any doesn't equate to them not needing to.

Quote from: James McMurraySo, if a game does something different than what one guy said over a quarter century ago it isn't a real RPG?

Like it or not, the one who gets there first sets the standards.

RPGundit defined the guidelines as being for a "GOOD rpg" and a "REAL rpg", by which he means, "an rpg worth playing."

I don't know about "real rpg", sounds a bit like "real man" to me, but I do think they're reasonable guidelines for a "good rpg."

I don't think it's very useful to talk about what is or isn't an rpg, any more than it's useful to talk about what is or isn't a "real man." But we can talk about what is a good rpg, or a good man.

Quote from: RPGPunditUnlike many so-called RPG designers today...

Well, like who?  Honest question.

Quote from: jrientsFor a near perfect version of old school D&D run the Rules Cyclopedia but follow Gygax's 1st edition advice.

Now that's some excellent meta-advice!  :cool:

Quote from: RPGPunditGary said:
1. "As a participant in the game, I would not care to have anyone telling me exactly what must go into my campaign, and how it must be handled; If so, why not play some game like chess? "

Emphasis mine.  Note that he states "participant" and not "GM".  Is Gary telling us that all players should have input on the details of the campaign?

Quote2. "As the author I also realize that there are limits to my creativity and imagination.  Others will think of things I didn't, and devise things beyond my capability."

Yup.  More undermining the authority of the GM, as he invites even players to come up with ideas that will often be better than what the Game Designer could have thought up.

Quote3. "As an active Dungeon Master I kept a careful watch for things which would tend to complicate matters without improving them..."

So much for crappy mechanics, gimmicky or not.

Quote4. "...(and) rules which lessened the fantastic and unexpected in favour of the mundane and the ordinary"

[/i]And more crappy mechanics, gimmicky or not.

Damns, Pundit.  That was a lazy bit of selective editing and loose interpretation on your part.

!i!

Quote from: RezendevousWell, like who?  Honest question.

Oh, there's shitloads of them. Vince Baker, Bruce Baugh, Borgstrom, Snead, Kenson, the entire GR crew, the entire WW crew, etc etc... and of course, pretty much everyone over at the Forge.  Having the Game Designer force his philosophy and style of play on the game itself and creating a GM by obligation who is impotent to change that style is pretty well their guiding philosophy over there.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaDamns, Pundit.  That was a lazy bit of selective editing and loose interpretation on your part.

!i!

What a joke. You're the one who is interpreting it totally out of context, and you aren't fooling anyone.  The fact that Gygax wrote this in the DM'S GUIDE should be enough to make it clear who he was talking about, and for.

Remember, in AD&D 1st edition players were expected NOT to read the DMG.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditRemember, in AD&D 1st edition players were expected NOT to read the DMG.

Better yet, they were told not to read it. Oh yes, that was a real standard setter. One of the biggest loads of elitist tripe to ever come down the RPG pike.