Quote from: Reckall;558518No one, except for a not totally sane individual, "asks" for something bad. Still, each one has responsibilities towards him/herself so that the bad doesn't happen. Can we now dispense with this "I do what I want and the World must submit to the way I want it to be!!!" childishness now? Because I have a secret to share with you: it will not.

Why do you equate wearing skimpy clothes to demanding the world goes your way? Where, exactly, in all the depth of information in the links provided do you see miniskirts?

I'm not asking you to take my word for it, and I don't really give a fuck about your opinion on the matter. I am however much more prepared to believe the decades of research and study that has gone into this very unpleasant question.

Or is this a case of you demanding that the world must submit to the way you want it to be?

Quote from: 1989;558521It's a figure of speech. Nobody asks for it. It means, you didn't take adequate precaution or heed advice/common sense.

Are you sure you aren't living in Pakistan? Because wearing form-concealing clothes is exactly zero protection against rape. Simples, no?

What does that have to do with anything?

People are raped regardless of what they wear.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;558498There are women on those boards?  I mean, besides you?  

Who'd of thought?

There a number but most of them are in Tangency. There may be one or two that post in the D20 subforum but most that post in the gaming section do so in TRO.

Quote from: 1989;558528What does that have to do with anything?

Quote from: 1989;558420You walk around showing off your body . . . don't be surprised if something bad happens to you. You were asking for it. I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying, accept the advice as the truth.

I should hope at this stage you'll just accept the facts gracefully and move on. The facts being, what you wear has nothing to do with your chances of being sexually assaulted.

Quote from: The Traveller;558530I should hope at this stage you'll just accept the facts gracefully and move on. The facts being, what you wear has nothing to do with your chances of being sexually assaulted.

I don't see what you're saying here.

What you're wearing can certainly affect the chances. You'd be incredibly naive to think otherwise.

Quote from: Reckall;558505I remember the early '90s in New York City, when pamphlets advised you "not to look like a tourist". Looking around while holding a map, snapping pictures at fire hydrants, and gaping in awe at the Empire State Building could mark you as "an easy target for mugging".

Was this discrimination against tourists? No, it was only common sense. Was it a justification for muggers? No, mugging was still a crime. And no one ever organized "tourist pride" marches against this sane advice.

I'd say that's because those particular actions aren't an important part of people's identity - i.e. there isn't a collective group who take pride in being a tourist.  (For what it's worth, I'm a New Yorker originally, and lived in Manhattan from '91 to '93.)  

If the feature that was being targeted was something that the people took pride in, then they can and should organize pride in it.  There are, say, people who take pride in being Jewish - and when Jewish people (especially Orthodox) were targeted in New York, they were organizing to stop it.  In earlier decades, you saw the same thing like the Irish organizing and taking open pride in being Irish rather than trying to hide their origin.  Likewise for black people.  

I don't see anything wrong with the St. Patrick's Day parade where people show their pride in being Irish.  Likewise, I don't see a problem with an event where people take pride in being women.

Quote from: The Traveller;558530I should hope at this stage you'll just accept the facts gracefully and move on. The facts being, what you wear has nothing to do with your chances of being sexually assaulted.

This seems to be true of all the data I've seen as well.  People (not just women) who appear weak are the top targets, because rape is generally about power and control, and rapists will target those who they think they can manipulate or force.  (there's always exceptions of course, but as a general rule)

I didn't read the Tang thread, but if someone said don't bother learning self defense because it never works, they need to be educated.  True, a two-week course in self defense most likely won't increase combat skills, but it misses the most important benefit.  Those course increase confidence and self esteem, which are two things that make you less of a target.  Fighting back isn't the only way to avoid getting assaulted.  Reducing your risk overall also helps.

I thought about posting a cavalcade of photos of plain-jane looking women in the US and around the world who were victims of rape and worse and by 1989s definition "deserved it" but there's only so much I can stomach to do to try to make him shut the fuck up.  Also, killfiled anyway, so.

Quote from: 1989;558420You walk around showing off your body . . . don't be surprised if something bad happens to you. You were asking for it.

Here's the specific problem with this kind of rhetoric: Saying that a woman was "asking" for rape is to say that it is not, in fact, rape.

Clothing -- no matter how evocative or revealing -- does not grant permission. Period.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;558537I thought about posting a cavalcade of photos of plain-jane looking women in the US and around the world who were victims of rape and worse and by 1989s definition "deserved it" but there's only so much I can stomach to do to try to make him shut the fuck up.  Also, killfiled anyway, so.

Please don't. Rape is not about sex, it's about power and control and has jack all about what you wear.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;558538Here's the specific problem with this kind of rhetoric: Saying that a woman was "asking" for rape is to say that it is not, in fact, rape.

Clothing -- no matter how evocative or revealing -- does not grant permission. Period.

Of course it doesn't grant permission. Nobody said it did.

Quote from: The Traveller;558525Why do you equate wearing skimpy clothes to demanding the world goes your way? Where, exactly, in all the depth of information in the links provided do you see miniskirts?

Where, in what I wrote, you found the word miniskirts? Or I talked about women only? Can you point it to me?

Now that you have found that you can't, let's talk about "research": a girlfriend of mine wrote a paper about prevention of violence against women in contemporary times. This was back in 2006, for her exam to become a Police Lieutenant. And in the preface she, speaking as a woman, underlined how prevention is responsibility both of the individual and of the society at large. This has nothing to do with the fact that the act you try to prevent is criminal, and must be fully prosecuted by the law. It doesn't justify it, it doesn't ask for lenience for the perpetrator. Actually the responsibilities of the perpetrator under the law wasn't even the point of the paper (except where the text underlined how irresponsibility by the victim must not be used as an excuse to lower the seriousness of the crime).

Still (and I personally apply the principle to any type of crime) no one can avoid the unexpected, but you still can (and should) avoid dangerous behaviours - the way everybody does in any other aspect of his life.

Either that, or I can show you some truly seedy parts of Milan where you can go around flashing a wallet full of money, smiling serene in your pampered ideal that "A and B are unrelated! Flashing money in a 'skimpy miniwallet' is my right! And when the paramedics will try to screw my teeth back don't thou dare to fingerwag me". (Something, incidentally, that I won't do, being it futile).

It would be an interesting experiment. I'll provide the place, you the money. What do you think?

Quote from: Reckall;558544Where, in what I wrote, you found the word miniskirts? Or I talked about women only? Can you point it to me?

Really? You start babbling about tourists being obvious visible targets and you weren't drawing a line between that and revealing clothing?

Quote from: Reckall;558544And in the preface she, speaking as a woman, underlined how prevention is responsibility both of the individual and of the society at large.

So what? Prevention in this case doesn't mean don't wear revealing clothes, it means don't get falling down drunk and wander into a dark alleyway or any one of the several behaviours which are actually associated with sexual violence. Among them not being what you wear. Clearly you didn't bother reading, never mind understanding, the links and I'm assuming you're no longer in a relationship with that woman for no doubt unrelated reasons.

Quote from: Reckall;558544Still (and I personally apply the principle to any type of crime) no one can avoid the unexpected, but you still can (and should) avoid dangerous behaviours - the way everybody does in any other aspect of his life.

I can see this is going to have to be underlined, although you're making a point of not coming right out and saying what you're actually saying.

Quote from: Reckall;558544Either that, or I can show you some truly seedy parts of Milan where you can go around flashing a wallet full of money, smiling serene in your pampered ideal that "A and B are unrelated! Flashing money in a 'skimpy miniwallet' is my right! And when the paramedics will try to screw my teeth back don't thou dare to fingerwag me". (Something, incidentally, that I won't do, being it futile).

It would be an interesting experiment. I'll provide the place, you the money. What do you think?

I think you're being wilfully stupid. Don't worry, you can always claim you were trolling later, that covers a multitude on the internet. I'm sure its the ace 1989 has up his sleeve.

Lets try spelling this out. A mugger wants your money. Hence the mugging. A rapist isn't particularly interested in sex. They are more interested in power, or anger, or other related headfuckery. It doesn't matter whether or not you're wearing a string bikini, that's not the point. And this is what you're missing. Sexually attractive attire is not particularly attractive to a rapist, beacuse that's not what they are after.

But if you'd skimmed over the links briefly you'd already know that.

Fucking puritans, once again I raise a caffeinated beverage to whatever ill tempered monarch ran the useless bastards out of Europe on a rail. And my condolences, Americas.

Quote from: The Traveller;558550Lets try spelling this out. A mugger wants your money. Hence the mugging. A rapist isn't particularly interested in sex. They are more interested in power, or anger, or other related headfuckery. It doesn't matter whether or not you're wearing a string bikini, that's not the point. And this is what you're missing.

Actually, what you are missing, and big time, is how a rapist wants "power, or anger, or other related headfuckery" through my body. Hence the rape - by definition a violation of the most private belongings, both physical and mental, of the individual.

I could also point out, BTW, with all your attempts at "modern, wise thinking", how you constantly assume that people around you equate rape with "beautiful women" and only when they are "wearing a string bikini". Rape can be man on woman, woman on woman, man on man or even woman on man. Rape is perpetrated by an individual against another individual. Gender, race, way of dressing, religious affiliation etc. can all be an initiating factor according to circumstances (like a war) and the mind of the perpetrator - but not "THE REASON".

So, please, spare us words of wisdom like:

QuoteSexually attractive attire is not particularly attractive to a rapist, beacuse that's not what they are after.

...Which only prove your inability to read what others actually write, not to mention your faith in the "Forces of Banality". Two cents for you: we were already there. And "prevention" can just be that: don't go in a dark alley while you are drunk. Or, even better, don't drive while you are very tired - even if the one who at the end burns the red light is the other guy