Quote from: Benoist;556026Indeed, why not?

You can.

In the Other Games section of the site.

Yes, even when "Other Games" includes "RPGs We Don't Like."

But please, tell me again how there aren't any agendas here.  It's a cute story!

KoOS

Quote from: Gib;555952I totally read this in a mean old man voice.

I'd like to think of myself as Clint Eastwood in Gran Torino. In reality, I'm probably more like Brian Cox in Rise of the Planet of the Apes, and this is a zoo full of shit-flinging bonobos.

KoOS

Oh yes. You guys are totally oppressed because a thread about some story game gets MOVED into the Other Games forum. So oppressed, in fact, that you whine about it for YEARS non-stop by claiming it's some sort of free speech issue, when in fact it totally isn't, since you can still talk about it on the message boards AND keep on whining for YEARS about your mistreatment in the process.

Thanks for schooling the Pundit on this one. What a prick! :rolleyes:

Quote from: jeff37923;556021Except it usually was not discussion, it was proslytization. A Forgie would pop in and start evangelizing about GNS or the latest Forge darling. When any discussion was tried, there was a lot of bad faith arguement from the Forgie to try and shut any criticism down. It got fucking tiresome really damn quick.

Well, but being fucking tiresome isn't grounds for being shunted off to another forum.  There is lots of fucking tiresome shit here - edition wars, for example.  It's not like story games were ever threatening to take over the site or drown out other discussion.  

The current setup is still better than heavy-handed moderation for me, but I would like some place where people could speak their minds about both traditional RPGs and story games without heavy-handed moderation.

Quote from: Benoist;556049Oh yes. You guys are totally oppressed because a thread about some story game gets MOVED into the Other Games forum. So oppressed, in fact, that you whine about it for YEARS non-stop by claiming it's some sort of free speech issue, when in fact it totally isn't, since you can still talk about it on the message boards AND keep on whining for YEARS about your mistreatment in the process.

Thanks for schooling the Pundit on this one. What a prick! :rolleyes:

Ben, I don't think people in general think that anyone's oppressed around here. I know I don't.

But as Sacrosanct writes, I think that it could scare some (a lot?) of people away from the site. Some who could be good/cool posters. It's silly that games, that most people consider roleplaying games, is placed in a secondary forum. Unless you don't really want people talking about these games on your forum at all, which is fair nuff, if silly. Just say that then.

Also, isn't whining for years, be it about swine, evil forgeist or oppression, kinda what this forum is all about... right after rpg'ing, ofcourse.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556036I have never seen that happen. Not fucking once.

If it's tolerable that they can 'proselytize' in the other forum then they can do so in the rpg forum. Of course this is about marginalising discussion.

You must be fucking blind as well as bitter if you've never seen that happen.  When Ron's essays first made big waves, it killed rpg.net, first in the design section, then in every tabletop gaming forum on there.

You're right that it is marginalizing discussion of certain games, but in this case I don't have a problem with it.  Most debates on gaming fora are silly.  But when every single discussion is derailed by debates over defining "fun," protagonization, etc etc etc, something has to be done.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;556033The D&D sub forum is fairly clearly labelled, as is the game itself.

Not quite the same thing as happens here.

Got your second wind, have you? It doesn't matter what its labelled. Its not like storygame threads are moved with howls of imprecations and threats of violence. If you want to talk about them, do so. In Other Games. If enough people feel like joining in, the place will be abuzz with storygaming jollies.

It doesn't seem like that's happening though.

I mean are you trying to say that storygamers are either too sensitive or too unaware to post in a forum just because of what its called, and that's hardly an offensive name? The "atmosphere" there is interfering with typing ability somehow?

Quote from: jhkimThe current setup is still better than heavy-handed moderation for me, but I would like some place where people could speak their minds about both traditional RPGs and story games without heavy-handed moderation.

There's nothing stopping you from doing so.

Again, I'll ask, if storygames are so compelling, why isn't Other Games abuzz with storygaming threads? This appears to be a case of wanting to advertise your wares in the biggest traffic section of the site; I believe the Pundit has terms and costs regarding advertising publicly displayed. If not, then surely it must stand on its own merits and attract its own audience?

This is bullshit evangelism that doesn't stand up to the barest fingernail scraping of an inspection.

Quote from: Benoist;556049Oh yes. You guys are totally oppressed because a thread about some story game gets MOVED into the Other Games forum. So oppressed, in fact, that you whine about it for YEARS non-stop by claiming it's some sort of free speech issue, when in fact it totally isn't, since you can still talk about it on the message boards AND keep on whining for YEARS about your mistreatment in the process.

Thanks for schooling the Pundit on this one. What a prick! :rolleyes:

I'm assuming this isn't directed at me, but I gotta say, if you're pitching yourself as "the place to talk about RPGs without the fear of agendas or heavy moderation"  and at the same time banish any rpg talk that deals with rpgs that you personally don't like to some backroom forum when the title of this forum is "role-playing games", then that sounds pretty hypocritical to me.

I think I've established that I'm not a huge fan of storygames.  But taking the policy that you seem to be taking is not only counter to what you're professing the site to be to gain membership, but is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Again, if you don't want discussion of RPGs in the RPG forum except your own personal ones, make that official policy and don't act like you're wanting to grow the site.  Because you're not going to.  Not with that policy, nor with the snarky replies.

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;556055Ben, I don't think people in general think that anyone's oppressed around here. I know I don't.

Well given the hyperbole and nerdrage that goes into this kind of periodic bitching about storygames and their status coming from a definite, known minority on the RPG Site, I have my doubts, sometimes. You'll excuse me if I lumped you with the others and felt like I was doing you some injustice.

Just backtrack a few pages back, look at the language and rhetoric used here when talking about a thread being moved to another forum that you can still post on and discuss to build a series of strawmen about free speech and being shunted off and all that jazz, and tell me this isn't making a mountain out of mole hill, seriously.

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;556055But as Sacrosanct writes, I think that it could scare some (a lot?) of people away from the site. Some who could be good/cool posters.

Somehow, I doubt most gamers care enough about unpopular story games to get their panties in a twist the way our usual suspects do here when a thread about them gets MOVED (not shut down, nor ostracized, nor banished, nor shunted off, nor whatever hyperbole you might want to come up with, but MOVED), and for those that would care to such an extent as to be "scared away from the site", well, that would say something about them that would also make me doubt whether they'd be good additions to the Site's population in the first place.

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;556055It's silly that games, that most people consider roleplaying games, is placed in a secondary forum. Unless you don't really want people talking about these games on your forum at all, which is fair nuff, if silly. Just say that then.

You can talk about them. On the Other Games forum. It's just that this Site is primarily dedicated to actual, traditional role playing games, and that is its main focus. Part of the reason for the existence of the RPG Site is precisely that there needs to be a place somewhere where you can talk role playing games without having Forge theory Swine and Story Swine and all their followers invading the place like they did on so many other gaming forums. Won't happen here, and YET, you can STILL talk story games if you want. On their dedicated forum. In Other Games.

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;556055Also, isn't whining for years, be it about swine, evil forgeist or oppression, kinda what this forum is all about... right after rpg'ing, ofcourse.

Actually no. If you look at the entire sum of threads that have been posted on the RPG Site since its creation, it is OVERWHELMINGLY about Role Playing Games and Gaming FIRST, way beyond any other topic of conversation, Swine-bashing included.

Quote from: Benoist;556066It's just that this Site is primarily dedicated to actual, traditional role playing games, and that is its main focus..

Well, then it seems like the fix is an easy one.  Rename this forum to "traditional role-playing games", and add a subforum called "storygames"

That way you have an official policy that enables you to move any storygaming talk out of this main forum without coming off as just moving it to be a dick.

This forum was founded on and continues to be fueled by just being a dick, and for once, I'm not kidding.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;556065I'm assuming this isn't directed at me, but I gotta say, if you're pitching yourself as "the place to talk about RPGs without the fear of agendas or heavy moderation"  and at the same time banish any rpg talk that deals with rpgs that you personally don't like to some backroom forum

Banishment in this case bears exactly no consequences. In other words its not banishment. The "backroom forum" is as publicly available as any other forum.

This comes down to wanting storygames to be recognised as RPGs. They aren't. WoW bills itself as an RPG too, but it isn't, in exactly the same way.

Quote from: jhkim;556053Well, but being fucking tiresome isn't grounds for being shunted off to another forum.  There is lots of fucking tiresome shit here - edition wars, for example.  It's not like story games were ever threatening to take over the site or drown out other discussion.  

The current setup is still better than heavy-handed moderation for me, but I would like some place where people could speak their minds about both traditional RPGs and story games without heavy-handed moderation.

Having a thread moved from one forum where you can say anything you want to another forum where you can say anything you want, and then you can bitch about the move anytime you want is "heavy-handed" huh?  If you say so.

Quote from: The Traveller;556071This comes down to wanting storygames to be recognised as RPGs. They aren't.

Precisely so. All the rest is just a smoke screen.

Quote from: KenHR;556060You must be fucking blind as well as bitter if you've never seen that happen.  When Ron's essays first made big waves, it killed rpg.net, first in the design section, then in every tabletop gaming forum on there.

You're right that it is marginalizing discussion of certain games, but in this case I don't have a problem with it.  Most debates on gaming fora are silly.  But when every single discussion is derailed by debates over defining "fun," protagonization, etc etc etc, something has to be done.

I only occasionally stop by rpg.net, so I don't have a good idea about what happened over there.  My main online discussion spots have been before on rec.games.frp.advocacy, The Forge, here, LiveJournal, and story-games.com.  Of these, I liked most rgfa and here specifically because of the lack of heavy-handed moderation.  I prefer it when people feel free to speak their mind, and disagreements get actually hashed out.  For example, one of the things that ticked me off most at The Forge was Ron's moderation.  He rarely banned posters, but was really quick to shut down threads when they went in a direction that didn't go along with the desired view.  

I trying to understand your view from this.  Are you saying that discussion of story games is a danger, and that there needs to be active policing to keep that discussion out of the RPG forum here?  

From my point of view, I think heavy-handed moderation to separate out undesired points of view are a cure worse than the disease - regardless of whether that view is OSR, story games, 4e fans, or what have you.