Quote from: WillInNewHaven;1000134OK, I see what you mean. However, murders among the commons were pretty common also. And duels were not murder.

I can guarantee that many a "duel" was a fiction invented after a killing to protect the life and liberty of someone important enough to arrange it.

Swords don't kill people. People  kill people.

Quote from: Kiero;1000175I can guarantee that many a "duel" was a fiction invented after a killing to protect the life and liberty of someone important enough to arrange it.

Sure, that's how I would do it, although I don't know how you'd guarantee it. A lot of  duels were publicly attested. The problem was that someone could pretty much force one into a duel. If they were good enough, that might as well be murder. Witness: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1it7BP5PckI

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;1000271Sure, that's how I would do it, although I don't know how you'd guarantee it. A lot of  duels were publicly attested. The problem was that someone could pretty much force one into a duel. If they were good enough, that might as well be murder. Witness: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1it7BP5PckI

Well, that's the beginning of Scaramouche for a reason;)!

Quote from: Kiero;999875If the historical murder rate of England was anything to go by, the most likely cause of trouble was everyone else carrying a sword "in case of trouble" and alcohol.

Seriously?

I'm pretty sure it had more to do with endemic poverty and crime in appalling urban conditions.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1000932Seriously?

I'm pretty sure it had more to do with endemic poverty and crime in appalling urban conditions.

Living standards in medieval western Europe for most people were much higher than in China or Japan (per Greg Clark 'A Farewell to Alms', Steven Pinker's 'The Better Angels of our Nature' has some data too) so by this reasoning one would expect a much higher murder rate in China & Japan, but there's no evidence for this. I don't think there's any evidence urban murder rates were higher than rural either; from what I can tell the cities were if anything regarded as safer.
Looking just at western Europe where there is a lot of good data, you see a lot of variation in murder rates with similar living standards, it seems to be cultural and unrelated to poverty rates. Northern Italy for instance was quite wealthy with high violent death rates, England was not particularly high.

The main medieval trend was decline of violent death rates in 'core Europe' as the manorial system seems to have bred for* less violence; starting in northern France, SE England and parts of the Low Countries then spreading outwards from there.

*Land was not inherited by peasants; you could only marry & get land to farm if the local lord/reeve thought you were a good prospect.

Quote from: S'mon;1000974Living standards in medieval western Europe for most people were much higher than in China or Japan (per Greg Clark 'A Farewell to Alms', Steven Pinker's 'The Better Angels of our Nature' has some data too) so by this reasoning one would expect a much higher murder rate in China & Japan, but there's no evidence for this. I don't think there's any evidence urban murder rates were higher than rural either; from what I can tell the cities were if anything regarded as safer.
Looking just at western Europe where there is a lot of good data, you see a lot of variation in murder rates with similar living standards, it seems to be cultural and unrelated to poverty rates. Northern Italy for instance was quite wealthy with high violent death rates, England was not particularly high.

The main medieval trend was decline of violent death rates in 'core Europe' as the manorial system seems to have bred for* less violence; starting in northern France, SE England and parts of the Low Countries then spreading outwards from there.

*Land was not inherited by peasants; you could only marry & get land to farm if the local lord/reeve thought you were a good prospect.

You raise some very interesting points! I would note though that in various periods of Chinese history cities were much more strictly regulated in terms of guards/law-enforcement than in their European equivalents.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1001470You raise some very interesting points! I would note though that in various periods of Chinese history cities were much more strictly regulated in terms of guards/law-enforcement than in their European equivalents.

I've seen it commented more than once how modern Chinese visitors to Europe are terrified of going out into the scary lawless countryside & prefer to stick to the nice safe cities...

There are parts of the USA that sort-of fit this trope a bit, but in western Europe generally the countryside tends to be very safe now, cities much more dangerous. The opposite of China. Macaulay commented in the 19th century that his native Scottish Highlands had gone from dangerous/lawless to very safe within a few decades in the 18th century, following the destruction of the clan system and incorporation into the British state.

Yes. The interesting thing is that in fact, lawless periods aside, Chinese urban history has been one of cities becoming gradually LESS regimented. There's a noted difference between what cities were like back in the Han and Tang Dynasties, where people were basically assigned to different neighborhoods by function, there were strict rules on where you could even go, and an extremely strict curfew; versus the later Song, Ming and Manchu dynasties where things were much more relaxed.  Still far, far more regimented than cities throughout almost all of western European history.

I live in a very safe rural area, but my wife's family from a city where the murder rate far exceded our entire county (the county being a land area the size of Rhode Island) were always terrified of being murdered in their beds.  We feel much less safe visiting them. Many people in my neck of the woods don't even know where the front door keys are, much less lock it.  Sometimes it's all about perception.

Quote from: DavetheLost;1003289I live in a very safe rural area, but my wife's family from a city where the murder rate far exceded our entire county (the county being a land area the size of Rhode Island) were always terrified of being murdered in their beds.  We feel much less safe visiting them. Many people in my neck of the woods don't even know where the front door keys are, much less lock it.  Sometimes it's all about perception.

I spent my high-school years in Walker County, Alabama. It was pretty rural, with a very small city and a number of small towns. Most people didn't lock their doors and our crime rate, in general, was quite low. Our homicide rate was one of the highest in the country. The killer and the victim generally knew one another and there was no property crime involved.

Different area, different situation. You had a high homicide rate. We have an annual number of murders usually zero to less than five for the entire country. for years when our number of homicides were 0 and 2, they had 72 and 67 respectively.

Where do you think people would be safer?

Quote from: DavetheLost;1003430Different area, different situation. You had a high homicide rate. We have an annual number of murders usually zero to less than five for the entire country. for years when our number of homicides were 0 and 2, they had 72 and 67 respectively.

Where do you think people would be safer?

I'm assuming since you frame it that way, people near you, although very unlikely to be murdered, are not safe. Whether that means there is a lot of non-murder violence, or you are including things like suicide, death by misadventure, etc., I'm not sure.

No, generally I think I live in a pretty safe area.  My point is that to city folk it can seem like the countryside has bandits lurking behind every hedge and bush, not to mention the wild animals.  I tend to forget how freaky and scary coyotes howling can be as I have heard them all my life, although I think I have only seen one two or three times.

Quote from: DavetheLost;1003430Different area, different situation. You had a high homicide rate. We have an annual number of murders usually zero to less than five for the entire country. for years when our number of homicides were 0 and 2, they had 72 and 67 respectively.

Where do you think people would be safer?

Away from home. Far away. Most accidents happen in or near the home and many victims knew their murderer. The farther from home I am the safer I'm gonna be.