So I've suddenly acquired a fetish for Golden Age space opera, which shall be narrowly defined as 1940s and 1950s stuff published in and around Astounding magazine--van Vogt, Asimov, Bester, Piper, Heinlein to a lesser degree.
That's not Traveller. Traveller is Niven/Pournelle. Not sure what I mean by that exactly or what the precise difference is here, but it's huge. That one of the emperors in Foundation is called Cleon etc. etc. doesn't take away from that.
The Space Opera RPG has classes that are called Armsmen and Astronaut. Now that's what I'm talking about. I believe it also has "novaguns" and "BattleStarShips." That is good, too.
So the rules are apparently very bad. What's the setting like?
And are there other RPGs out there that cover the genre?
Heh, just finished re-reading "Voyage of the Space Beagle" by A.E van Vogt. I was thinking that it would be awesome to play in a game that was in that setting. Love to see what systems get suggested.
Quote from: Pierce InveraritySo the rules are apparently very bad. What's the setting like?
My comments aren't really on topic, but I hope they're helpful.
I haven't played it, so I can't say, but from what I have read, Space Opera is a toolbox, but perhaps not explicitly packaged as so. You're supposed to disregard the rules you're not using in your campaign (e.g. psionics.) Allegedly the difficulty/excessive crunch with SO comes from attempting to use all the optional rules. I believe tetsujin (RIP) over on the other board occasionally defended this game along these lines, but I don't remember for sure. I know somebody did.
I don't know that SO's rules are bad; I do know that they are said to be ubercrunchy. I play in a Privateers & Gentlemen campaign right now (an old FGU game), and it's fairly crunchy, but it rocks. If SO is anywhere near as good as P&G (with the necessary Hearts of Oak supplement), then I would recommend SO wholeheartedly.
FGU still sells Space Opera for cheap ($20) (http://www.fantasygamesunlimited.net/shop/?shop=1&cat=4&cart=37560), and I considered it for a space opera game a few months ago, before deciding to run Star Trek with GURPS. GURPS provides detailed, diverse characters for a mostly rules-light campaign; it seemed the perfect match, and I'm happy with it so far (through five off-and-on sessions.)
GURPS could certainly do what you're looking for, but might require tweaking, and of course, it might not be to your taste... as is often the case with GURPS.
Quote from: Pierce InveraritySo the rules are apparently very bad. What's the setting like?
The rules are horrendous. Partially because they are poorly thought out, but also because they are not in any kind of logical order throughout the books.
Space Opera was the second SFRPG purchase I had made after
Classic Traveller and where you can cookbook your way through the later, you cannot figure out
Space Opera on your own. I couldn't get rid of the game fast enough.
Now, having said that, the sector atlas books are gold. Buy them even if you have no intention of ever playing the game for the Jeff Dee artwork and the thinly veiled genre rip-offs scattered about them.
But hey, if you can run the
Lucky Starr stories with it and have fun, then more power to you!
I think Jeff's observations trump my hopeful comments. I was half-figuring this was FGU's outer-space complement to Privateers & Gentlemen.
I guess I won't be buying Space Opera after all.
Quote from: FASERIPI think Jeff's observations trump my hopeful comments. I was half-figuring this was FGU's outer-space complement to Privateers & Gentlemen.
I guess I won't be buying Space Opera after all.
The rules suck, but like I said - check out their sector atlases because they are well worth the money.
Agreed with jeff. I've used the sector atlases as inspiration for Traveller games, and the adventures have some good ideas, too. The ship books are neat, but don't port to Traveller...they do evoke a golden age feel, though.
I never did bother reading the rules, as I'd read Aftermath! shortly before getting SO, and was all FGU'd out.
Quote from: Pierce InveraritySo the rules are apparently very bad. What's the setting like?
I liked them better than Traveller and had fun for a few over the top games back in the day. But then I also played Aftermath and Book of Mars back then.
Today I'd use HERO and create my own setting.
But I would still need some good starship rules. Since none of those exist, this type of campaign has never got off the ground. May have to make my own.
It's not right on target, having a grimmer, British bent, but I suspect Starblazer Adventures (http://www.cubicle-7.com/starblazer.htm) might be somewhat close to what you are looking for. It's based on the FATE engine and the license for a long-running British sci-fi anthology comic of the same name from the 70s and 80s.
QuoteGigantic fleets prowl the starlanes, mysterious aliens devise inexplicable fates for humankind, devilish scientists operate enormous engines of destruction and swashbuckling princes defend their world from ancient empires.
That sounds fairly "golden" does it not?
It does, it does. The only reason I'm not getting worked up about Starblazer is that it's based on a comic I don't know.
Re. SO rules, as so much else my SO box is sitting in a basement on another continent, and all I remember about the rules is vague despair. I believe some attributes are derived as the square root of other attributes?
The setting does look like pure gold though, and it's cheap too. They're giving away the sector books on rpgnow for $3.50 each. If I get this right, these are based on the various authors' personal campaigns, so one sector has an Asimov ring to it, another has Cold War Soviets in spaaace, and Phil MacGregor's sounds like military SF.
Re. the literature: Van Vogt is supposed to be an also-ran, but he is actually awesome. I just finished reading The World of Null-A. It is one paranoid rollercoaster.
Quote from: Pierce InveraritySo the rules are apparently very bad. What's the setting like?
All I know about the Space Opera RPG is that a few years ago, the creator actually sued another company for using the words Space Opera in the title of their game, and that company changed their title to avoid the legal hassles. In fact, that's about all I need to know.
QuoteAnd are there other RPGs out there that cover the genre?
TSR released a Buck Rogers RPG as a boxed set with several supplements (I have a few of them). This is the old comic Buck Rogers from the 40s and 50s (not the 25th century one from TV) so I'd think it's what you're looking for. I bought the boxed set for $1 at a flea market and the supplements that came with it for $1. In fact, I bought all 3 boxed sets he had and gave them to friends.
Pete
Quote from: pspahnI bought the boxed set for $1 at a flea market and the supplements that came with it for $1. In fact, I bought all 3 boxed sets he had and gave them to friends.
Pete
FUCK A DUCK! I wanna shop at THAT flea market!
Pool of Radiance my ASS...!
Golly, did I just cuss?
Pete, yes, I've been meaning to look into that Buck Rogers game.
Re. legal action, it wasn't the SO authors who threatened it but rather the owner of FGU, Scott Bizar, or is that Bizarre.
I guess Star Frontiers would be another RPG to check out, but I could never get over the fact that the alien on the rulebook cover looks live Steven Tyler.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!FUCK A DUCK! I wanna shop at THAT flea market!
Heh, yeah this one is pretty good for RPGs for some reason. I bought a bunch of brand new Ravenloft Van Richten's Guides to _______ for $2 each and a couple of old Star Wars WEG adventure journals for $1 each from the same vendor, plus a few other D&D modules and Dragon magazines from other sellers. Come to think of it, I need to get back there. . .
Pete
Quote from: Pierce InverarityPete, yes, I've been meaning to look into that Buck Rogers game.
This looks to be the game, but it's not in a box.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-TSR-RPG-Buck-Rogers-Adventure-Game-UNPUNCHED_W0QQitemZ220226362994QQihZ012QQcategoryZ44111QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
QuoteRe. legal action, it wasn't the SO authors who threatened it but rather the owner of FGU, Scott Bizar, or is that Bizarre.
My mistake. I assumed he was the creator. Still takes a lot of balls to claim the words Space Opera as your copyright.
QuoteI guess Star Frontiers would be another RPG to check out, but I could never get over the fact that the alien on the rulebook cover looks live Steven Tyler.
Wouldn't _that_ be a game.
"Fire those blasters! Scooba-daba-dooba-duh-bow! Yaaahhh!!!"
:)
Quote from: Pierce InveraritySo I've suddenly acquired a fetish for Golden Age space opera, which shall be narrowly defined as 1940s and 1950s stuff published in and around Astounding magazine--van Vogt, Asimov, Bester, Piper, Heinlein to a lesser degree.
I am a little surprised that EE Doc Smith's Lensmen series isn't on the top of your list for Golden Age Space Opera. It is, from what I understand, the original Space Opera and possibly the greatest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lensman
I highly recommend it if you haven't read it already (four or more times).
:)
In fact, I bought First Lensman two days ago! It's great--but it's pulp. There's a difference here too, though again, it's not easy to pinpoint. The operative tone in Golden Age SF is not tough guy two-fistedness.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityI guess Star Frontiers would be another RPG to check out, but I could never get over the fact that the alien on the rulebook cover looks live Steven Tyler.
I don't have the link, but you can download
Star Frontiers for free from some website out there. Its free due to a licensing loophole granted by WotC IIRC.
Quote from: pspahnAll I know about the Space Opera RPG is that a few years ago, the creator actually sued another company for using the words Space Opera in the title of their game, and that company changed their title to avoid the legal hassles. In fact, that's about all I need to know.
I wonder if you're misremembering the fact that Bizar hasn't allowed the game to be bought back by the original creators at a reasonable price. Googling
Bizar space opera will turn up some background; the best is at
http://www.sden.org/jdr/spaceopera/GB/interviews/ed.htm
which actually has some perspective by Ed Simbalist on the history of the system and the reasons for its failings.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityIn fact, I bought First Lensman two days ago! It's great--but it's pulp. There's a difference here too, though again, it's not easy to pinpoint. The operative tone in Golden Age SF is not tough guy two-fistedness.
What EE Doc Smith does is propose the Super-Scientist-Warrior as Lensmen... more or less. This character type actually comes through even more clearly in his Skylark series, but no matter... it's roughly the same. There's a lot of pulpy stuff in Lensmen, and dig that chauvinism, wow, but it actually fits into Smith's view of the universe in terms of his science - in particular the psychodynamics of the Lens and how it functions. But as you go through the series you'll find a steady development of the science aspects of the universe he is presenting... and by the end if you don't just sit in your seat drooling with "OMG" then... well... Anyway, I'd drop First Lensmen and get Triplanetary and read that first if you haven't. Go through the series in order. You won't be disappointed.
:)
Mark
Quote from: Elliot WilenI wonder if you're misremembering the fact that Bizar hasn't allowed the game to be bought back by the original creators at a reasonable price. Googling Bizar space opera will turn up some background; the best is at
http://www.sden.org/jdr/spaceopera/GB/interviews/ed.htm
which actually has some perspective by Ed Simbalist on the history of the system and the reasons for its failings.
No, that particular asshattery on Bizar's part is something different. I'm talking about his actually taking legal action against another company over the use of the words Space Opera in the title of their RPG.
Pete
I liked Space Opera. It just had more 'Zing!" than Traveller
I played in a Space Opera online game once.
I wanted to play a dashing star pilot.
After chargen, I had a low level civil service bureaucrat, I calculated that after several years (real time) of play if I spent my income on training I might get to be a pilot. In the meantime, my character worked in a job which in all seriousness was less interesting than my real life one.
The GM was good, he loved the game, but the system was shockingly bad. Bizarrely complex, really hard to follow and I somehow ended up only able to play a junior civil servant.
On another note, Pelorus, I have a thread on rpg.net about credo/testament I'd appreciate your thoughts on. Dr Rotwang, do you have a copy of the Traveller Book now out of interest?
Quote from: BalbinusDr Rotwang, do you have a copy of the Traveller Book now out of interest?
Uh, not a hardcopy, no. There's a .pdf of it on the
CT CD-ROM, which I
do have. But I have
The Traveller Adventure! That's a swanktastic tome I must say.
I liked Space Opera, too. Kind of in the minority, I suppose.
I mean--it was no Metascape, but still . . .
Quote from: BalbinusThe GM was good, he loved the game, but the system was shockingly bad. Bizarrely complex, really hard to follow and I somehow ended up only able to play a junior civil servant.
Doesn't sound like the Space Opera I remember, there the classes were pure adventure all the way. What you experienced would be like going to a 1st edition AD&D game and rolling up a court scribe or something...
Space opera is pretty underserved in rpg circles.
Light Speed is certainly pretty good eighties space opera.
FGU's Space Opera is more of a Star Wars thing.
I guess the real question is whether you want the pulp look and feel or just rocket ships that fly like biplanes.
Space Master Privateers is really a pretty space opera setting given its reactionless drives and zero point energy and teleporters.
The XXVc (Buck Rogers) game from TSR is really transhumanist realism bu that's a side point. The second Buck Rogers game is supposedly pretty good and very pulpy.
Quote from: David JohansenFGU's Space Opera is more of a Star Wars thing.
That's closest to what I want--a 1950s Star Wars that isn't Star Wars. So, none of the "Luke I'm your father" or force/religion stuff. Pulp look and feel, yes, but jaws slightly less square than in Lensmen. And aliens should be more than bugs, so not Starship Troopers.
So dashing lightly armoured heroes, telepaths, bug aliens and all that?
Spacemaster Privateers might be right up your alley, and it's simpler than Space Opera by several physics classes. I know a guy who used to have Ed Simbalist for his highschool science teacher. He got to playtest C&S and Space Opera first hand.
Anyhow, Star Cluster and Light Speed both are right up your alley as well.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Uh, not a hardcopy, no. There's a .pdf of it on the CT CD-ROM, which I do have. But I have The Traveller Adventure! That's a swanktastic tome I must say.
If you would like to purchase one without breaking your bank, I have one in very good condition for sale. Contact me via PM if interested.
I had a copy of Space Opera, now long lost. I bought it because someone had used it to create an alien race, complete with their space navy, for a contest in Space Gamer magazine. I was so impressed, I rushed out and bought the boxed set.
My first impression was the wretched art. The box art was even more amatuerish than the interior art, and that's hard to do. The second, on opening the box, was the smell. The ink they used had a strong chemical smell, which made reading the book physically repulsive.
I can't remember much about character creation or combat, except that the rules seemed unusually complex for the light tone they seemed to want. The best part for me was the starship rules. IIRC, they had different size classes of ships, with standard measurements for each class. Star Frontiers did something similar. 1 ton was 3 cubic meters, which gave smaller ships than Traveller's 14 cubic meters. They had more varied and fanciful weapons than Traveller, like the previosly mentioned Nova Guns. If you can find the ship supplements, they were amazing. I remember drooling over those in the game store, but being too broke to buy them. Lots of cool designs.
By the way, here are some links to Star Frontiers stuff, which does the same things as SO, but is free to download!
www.starfrontiers.com/ (http://www.starfrontiers.com/)
www.starfrontiers.org/ (http://www.starfrontiers.org/)
www.starfrontiersman.com/ (http://www.starfrontiersman.com/)
Hope they help!
Quote from: Pierce InverarityThat's closest to what I want--a 1950s Star Wars that isn't Star Wars. So, none of the "Luke I'm your father" or force/religion stuff. Pulp look and feel, yes, but jaws slightly less square than in Lensmen. And aliens should be more than bugs, so not Starship Troopers.
Which is slightly humorous because one of the psionic disciplines in Space Opera is called "The Force".
If you can find a copy, seek out Space Patrol by Lou Zocchi Games. It's a clunky old-school 70's RPG that is so 50's Space Opera-y it hurts.
Quote from: Leo KnightMy first impression was the wretched art. The box art was even more amatuerish than the interior art, and that's hard to do.
My first thought was, that's odd, because the box cover art was pretty well done for its time and IMHO looks OK even today... but then it occurred to me: Could you have encountered the dreaded (but by now valuable) first edition? Light blue cover?
http://www.waynesbooks.net/?page=shop/flypage&product_id=347661&keyword=SPACE+OPERA&searchby=title&offset=0&fs=1&CLSN_1310=120913595413100892b1310500e40111
On a general note, if this thread is representative it seems that nowadays, when people hear "space opera," they think: Star Wars. And when they hear "space opera before Star Wars," they think: Pulp. In 2008, everything in between the two has kind of faded from the purview.
I'm not the guy to bring it back into focus myself here and now because I'm just beginning to read the Golden Age stuff for the first time. But it's worth it. Today, Asimov is supposed to be the epitome of l4me, but Foundation is actually pretty good as a text, and very gameable as a source.
Quote from: David JohansenAnyhow, Star Cluster and Light Speed both are right up your alley as well.
Huh! I wouldn't recommend either for this. My StarCluster is too "Hard*" and sciency, being heavily influenced by Cherryh, Niven, and Brin; and the excellent Lightspeed is too modern a Space Opera game, being heavily influenced by Star Wars and Star Trek.
I thought of suggesting Cold Space, but CS is Heinlein, VanVoght, and Anderson run through a modern filter, so that you have atomic spaceships in the fifties flown by the Rocket Corps, but it's decidedly gritty, with no psi or quasi-magic, and even "Harder*" than StarCluster.
-clash
*"Hard"-ness in SF being relative, and changing with time. SC takes it's science seriously indeed, but would be considered no more than "firm" nowadays, and CS would be moderately "hard", somewhat less so than THS.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityToday, Asimov is supposed to be the epitome of l4me, but Foundation is actually pretty good as a text, and very gameable as a source.
Lame?! Pffft. Other day I saw
Foundation get out of its car and punch a biker in the ass for not signaling at a 4-way.
And the biker
apologized.
Clash, as we're talking about the feel and focus of the setting I thought both were fairly appropriate. I didn't think the original poster was looking for tinfoil and cardboard spaceships and black and white photography (though I may just have to do that some day)
Just a more free wheeling, space adventure that isn't overly dominated by existing plots and characters where psi is more like psi and less like the force.
Actually, Mechanoid Invasion Book III might fit though the over arching plot of the Mechanoid's genocidal war is pretty dominant. I loves me some Mechanoid Invasion. I should run a Spacemaster campaign with mechanoids.
I tried to insert them into Starwars d6 but my players turfed me as GM after the first session. Apparently meeting an imperial command ship that's drifting and half destroyed and having the surviving commanding officer begging for help before "they" came back was too scary.
In a weird coincidence, my wife and I were cleaning up our many hundreds of books yesterday and I found a boxed set of Star Frontiers from TSR. The box itself is in shoddy condition but the books (and maps with cardboard tokens) are pristine. Hell, there are even 2 d10's in there that haven't been crayoned with the white crayon ready to be used.
The strange thing is I can't remember where I picked it up from, must've bulk bought it at a garage sale or second hand book store for me not to remember it. It is a bit like my other books are just quietly teleporting others in, I also found a BattleTech Solaris and ElfQuest boxed set of rpgs, also have no idea where they come from.
Getting back to the point, has anyone played Star Frontiers? Would it be good for some pulp sci-fi as Pierce Inverarity suggested in an earlier post?
I'll probably sit down tonight and give the rules a once over, but I figured someone here could tell me more about it.
Quote from: telliusGetting back to the point, has anyone played Star Frontiers? Would it be good for some pulp sci-fi as Pierce Inverarity suggested in an earlier post?
Not sure about pulp as defined by Pierce, but
SF together with it's
Knight Hawks supplement seemed very
Buck Rogers/Flash Gordon pulpy to me....way better than the
Buck Rogers game
TSR published some time ago....
Regards,
David R
Quote from: Pierce InverarityMy first thought was, that's odd, because the box cover art was pretty well done for its time and IMHO looks OK even today... but then it occurred to me: Could you have encountered the dreaded (but by now valuable) first edition? Light blue cover?
http://www.waynesbooks.net/?page=shop/flypage&product_id=347661&keyword=SPACE+OPERA&searchby=title&offset=0&fs=1&CLSN_1310=120913595413100892b1310500e40111
Hoo-boy! That's it!
Valuable? It figures I would lose mine!
I'm going to sing the praises of Mechanoid Invasion Book III some more since this thread got me thinking about it and it is the best thing Kevin Siembiada ever did.
Imagine Palladium's game system stripped to the bare essentials: Maybe five pages of rules, two pages with a dozen condensed OCCs, the neatest set of races you'll ever see in a space opera rpg (each with a two page spread), lots of pages of guns and space ships, the evil insect like dioni, and of course the mechanoids themselves.
The layout is loaded with drawings and diagrams, often with game stats penciled in right there on the drawing. It's very visual and organic with limited blocks of text getting in the way of the artistic vision.
The races are the game's real strong point.
The Nigellians are slightly hairier humans with larger canines and beter physical prowess. They share their star system with the Ostrac a race of monsterous amphibians who don't look anything like frogs and the gendo, a race of winged reptiles that resemble small dragons. There's lots of neat tidbits like the Nigellians world being a port of call for scavengers and pirates, Ostrac females being larger, stronger, and more violent than the males, and Gendo females being wingless but more technologically oriented than the males.
Then there's the Borellians a race of mangy dog people with a vague to Taco Bell's mascot on crack. They're an advanced race that has burned through their world's resources and environment and is desperately seeking new supplies.
The Cybermen, a Mechanoid slave race of cyborgs in advanced armoured bodies.
And the Phi Warpers, Mechanoid slaves who were originally psychic dolphins and are now little more than twisted blobs of flesh optimized to produce psychic space warps. Yes that's right you can play a deformed dolphin in a wheel chair who's also a powerful psychic warp drive. Sometimes I really wonder if Kevin was really a time travelling GURPS player.
The Cybermen and Phi Warpers have been awarded custody of the Mechanoid's abandoned home world which has become something of a gold rush for criminals, archeologists, and scientists.
Allied with the Mechanoids, we have the Dioni, an insect alliance with flies, wasps, and beetles rising up to quench their undying hatred of humanity with blood.
The Mechanoids themselves are a race of cybernetic psychic killing machines, living in genetically modified sybiosis with their armoured shells. Their mother ships are the size of planets and powered by the strip mined hearts of stars. And they hate humanity with all the passion of an abandoned and abused child. After all the Mechanoids were originally human. Having withdrawn from their genocidal war they now congregate around a new mothership three times the size of Jupiter and nobody knows when the other shoe will drop.
I know this is an old thread but I just discovered this site when i was remembering how much fun i had running Space Opera.
As a space opera fan and a GM for the game back in the day I have to say I really did enjoy the game a LOT. But it isn't a game where you can watch a few cheesy buck rogers episodes and pick it up and run with it. To do Space Opera proud. To engross your players in the genre that is the magic of the space opera you have to do a little bit of homework.
Might i suggest a few great books to get the feel?
E.E. Doc Smith's "Lensmen" series, Robert Hienliens "Starship Troopers", Issac Asimov's "Lucky Star" series, (believe it or not) Edgar Rice Burrough's "John Carter of Mars" series.
These will give you a decent starting point to get the feel for the genre. Some (John Carter) aren't space so much as just the pulp sci fi feel that is the space Opera Magic.
As for the Armsman and the Astronaut. Let me tell you once the GM understands the genre .. the rules make sense .. once you understand the rules? the armsman the astronaut and the othjer classes really become a lot of fun .... and psi?? once you read lensmen? it all makes COMPLETE sense and absolutely rocks. I loved the game personally and so did the group of players that started as 2 players and became so large i had to work out a rotation in the game to get all the players in ... 8 players one "book" (series of adventures) and 6 different players in that 8 the next and rotate from there. i had a total of 28 players from MANY genre that LOVED the game.
Sadly I was USAF at the time and as is [part of life people got stationed else where .. i got stationed elsewhere ... got married ... and well .... the rest is a sad sad story LOLOL but i swear if i had a chance to get going on that game again i would do it in a red hot SECOND.
You have to ask yourself the questions:
1_ What is a space opera?
2_ What makes me really love this genre
3_ can i give it the right feel?
if you do that as you write your stories (after doing your homework) and run the game ... you'll have them eating out of your hand.
nuff said :)
"May the stone speak"
Welcome Staarkad! I promise to read your post at length after dinner.
Man, talk about memories. I always wanted to get Space Opera but for whatever reason I never got around to it. Maybe a cheap copy will find its way to me.
Space Opera improves on Traveller: in Space Opera, the player can die during character creation.
The genre of Space Opera relate to traveller ONLY in that they are both sci fi .... to say those two relate is like saying a musical piece from Bach is like Mozart ..... because it's classical, or Cyber-Punk is like Shadow Run because its in a cyber punk framework.
Which by the way it completely incorrect.
Apparently a bunch of new stuff is due to come out for Space Opera and other FGU games this year (http://6d6fireball.com/rpg/news-from-fantasy-games-unlimited/).