Quote from: thedungeondelver;612150Well, I want the industry to die, but I'd like the hobby to live.

I don't want the industry or hobby to die. And I don't think it has too. I want new games to keep coming out. Which I don't think we can support on a purely hobby-based level. I just don't want suits and marketers driving the creation of those games. I want them created by gamers.

Lets face it... RPGs have taken a back seat to a newer generation with very little imagination and very little drive to get off their asses to write or plan. Its too easy to turn on the computer and play a game.

The idealism of roleplay has been watered down as well. Dice and paper are trademarks of the past. Alot of folks seem to feel their MMO characters are the depth of roleplaying. We can all agree the major MMOs have little or no roleplay to them or required to fit into their communities. Maybe Ultima Online once had a good RP flavor but that was long ago.

TableTop gaming will in turn carry on but only if its demonstrated and pushed towards the younger generation. Game stores on average need to cater more so to the younger folks because old foggies like the majority of this board will spend $$$ and buy shit reguardless if its commercialized or not. Kids and young folks dont seem to catch on unless the TV is straight selling it to them.

I think reguardless hobbyshops and game stores will always be around but only at a fraction of what was once the glory days of the 80s and late 90s.

Keep your chins up, and teach the next generation...

Quote from: Tetsubo;612723I don't want the industry or hobby to die. And I don't think it has too. I want new games to keep coming out. Which I don't think we can support on a purely hobby-based level. I just don't want suits and marketers driving the creation of those games. I want them created by gamers.

The kickstarter site seems to be enabling just that, no?  I've been pleasantly surprised a number of times by the support there for a new tabletop system or gaming aid.

Quote from: Looter Guy;612724Game stores on average need to cater more so to the younger folks because old foggies like the majority of this board will spend $$$ and buy shit reguardless if its commercialized or not. Kids and young folks dont seem to catch on unless the TV is straight selling it to them.

I've talked to a number of people running game shops over the past year.  They all told pretty much the same story:  they sell a lot fewer RPG games, and sometimes don't even bother bringing a lot of that kind of stock to shows, because people have shifted largely to buying gaming books online, usually in PDF form.

Quote from: Looter Guy;612724Lets face it... RPGs have taken a back seat to a newer generation with very little imagination and very little drive to get off their asses to write or plan. Its too easy to turn on the computer and play a game.

I know some people from that "newer generation", and a lot more of them seem to be engaged in creative hobbies than ever before. Granted, most of that creativity involve a computer in some way, if for nothing else but networking / sharing, but I am not seeing a drop of creativity. In fact, the opposite seems to be true. It is just creativity largely focused on different things from tabetop RPGs.

Are RPGs demising again? Man they've been doing that off and on every few months since the early 80s.

The statement that RPGs are dying a slow death is true enough, but the conditions and clarifications that need to be attached to that far exceed the small text on your cellphone contract.  

Consider, for a moment, archery.  In England, it was the most popular sport.  Eventually, lawn bowling soared in popularity, along with tennis.  Archery ceased to be the 'go to diversion' for the vast majority of people.  But as a sport, it still exists.  It's just not quite the 'game' it used to be.  

Now, RPGs differ from archery in a number of ways, but for my purposes, the biggest difference is that a proper TTRPG requires people to get together in order to play.  It requires the alignment of schedules and a level of coordination that sports or games you can play on your own simply don't.  

So, consider a 'team sport' that doesn't enjoy the same popularity it used to - stick ball.  It used to be that anywhere in this country you could head outside and get a group of kids to play a pickup game of stickball.  But baseball has little league and professional level still vibrant.  The way the game plays has changed, but the game remains popular - even though it isn't played by 'casual' players.

D&D and other TTPRGs still possess a dedicated fanbase.  Whether that fan-base continues to grow is an open-ended question.  Even if it doesn't grow, it doesn't mean that it will end anytime soon.  I was born in 1979 and still game regularly.  My current group is spread around the country, and things like Skype have made it possible to continue gaming without the headache of recruiting other gamers and hoping against hope that they'd be the kind of people I'd like to hang out with away from the gaming table.  

As for whether it's growing, my sense is that it is.  Young people are still picking up the books and playing.  As I get older, that perception is more and more skewed - I don't spend a lot of time hanging around high schools or trying to get 15-year-old boys to come over to my house for gaming...  Presumably, they play with younger people and I play mostly with people my own age.  When my kids are older, I might play games with and for them.  There might be a new generation of gamers in the works.  

As for my particular group, two of the other players are around my age (probably a little older).  Two of the players are significantly younger.  They definitely graduated from college many years after I did, so let's say they're both about 25 now - that sounds about right.  There are more players that have disappeared because life gets busy - but a lot of them come back when the opportunity arises.

And with PbP, video conferencing, and the sheer number of games that are in print (or recently out of print and still available in used-book stores), this is actually a pretty good time to be a gamer.  The industry itself has been in the doldrums since 3.5 wound down.  We could discuss the hows and whys but the fact remains the same - gamers and the industry aren't as energized now as they were in the early 2000s - but there are plenty of games that an interested gamer can get in on.

"The RPG Business - Celebrating it's 20th anniversary going out of business sale!"

Quote from: Melan;612733I know some people from that "newer generation", and a lot more of them seem to be engaged in creative hobbies than ever before. Granted, most of that creativity involve a computer in some way, if for nothing else but networking / sharing, but I am not seeing a drop of creativity. In fact, the opposite seems to be true. It is just creativity largely focused on different things from tabetop RPGs.

How is networking / sharing creative?

The problem I see is that there are so many newer activities that are purely consumerist and have very little creative value. Many newer social media activities are less social and more media than even picking up a phone.

There are lots of dads (and a few moms) here who probably have kids that engage in creative activities. Creative parents tend to introduce their kids to creative activities. But so many new activities that are very readily available are not especially creative or social, and that's what kids of non-creative or non-engaging parents are doing. There are going to be some exceptions, but those are exceptional, not typical.

Quote from: Lynn;612747How is networking / sharing creative?

It isn't; sharing the results of creativity is. That happens a lot - head over to Tumblr or DeviantArt or any fan fiction site and you will see a ton of creative stuff people - including young people - have created and shared.

Is it good? As good as an RPG session played by beginners, probably.

Is it enjoyable for old fogies? Well... probably not. But it is not for them, it is for the people enjoying themselves.

Quote from: Lynn;612747The problem I see is that there are so many newer activities that are purely consumerist and have very little creative value. Many newer social media activities are less social and more media than even picking up a phone.

That is correct, but has it ever been different? The majority has always wanted to be entertained, whether by horse races, movies, TV programming or concerts. Comparatively fewer people want to create their own entertainment, but looking around me on the net, or among the young people I know, I see no shortage of bright minds who want more than being passive observers. They will do it differently than I or you or your uncle did. More power to them.

Quote from: Melan;612809It isn't; sharing the results of creativity is. That happens a lot - head over to Tumblr or DeviantArt or any fan fiction site and you will see a ton of creative stuff people - including young people - have created and shared.

Is it good? As good as an RPG session played by beginners, probably.

Is it enjoyable for old fogies? Well... probably not. But it is not for them, it is for the people enjoying themselves.

Agreed. If you look into tumblr/Livejournal RP blogs you will often find that young people inclined to roleplay will just up and do it without bothering with any rulebooks or dice.

Quote from: Warthur;612820Agreed. If you look into tumblr/Livejournal RP blogs you will often find that young people inclined to roleplay will just up and do it without bothering with any rulebooks or dice.

You know, that is how a lot of us grognards did it in the beginning, we use the rules in the books to cover things like combat and spellcasting and skill usage. Things that may be argued in a free-form role-playing scenario.

"Bang! I shot you! You're dead!"
"Nuh-uh! I dodged and you missed!"
"I did not!"
"Did so!"
"Boys, biys, here are some dice. Now roll them to see if Bobby shot Jimmy and hit him. Then roll to see how much damage he took if you did hit him."

Quote from: Warthur;612820Agreed. If you look into tumblr/Livejournal RP blogs you will often find that young people inclined to roleplay will just up and do it without bothering with any rulebooks or dice.

You know, that is how a lot of us grognards did it in the beginning, we use the rules in the books to cover things like combat and spellcasting and skill usage. Things that may be argued in a free-form role-playing scenario.

"Bang! I shot you! You're dead!"
"Nuh-uh! I dodged and you missed!"
"I did not!"
"Did so!"
"Boys, boys, here are some dice. Now roll them to see if Bobby shot Jimmy and hit him. Then roll to see how much damage he took if you did hit him."

Quote from: Warthur;612820Agreed. If you look into tumblr/Livejournal RP blogs you will often find that young people inclined to roleplay will just up and do it without bothering with any rulebooks or dice.

I think there are entire hidden icebergs of this stuff going on in Twilight and Harry Potter fan forums.

Quote from: noisms;612843I think there are entire hidden icebergs of this stuff going on in Twilight and Harry Potter fan forums.

It's called "simming".

(Not my cup of tea, but there you are.)