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Ok, so I loved Skyrealms of Jorune 2nd Edition then in the 3rd edition they had to bring on the 'pods - such a lame idea, followed by a lame adventure about the pods. I want to run the setting as it is, so any goofy bits put me off getting fully immersed  in that world

So what detail has made you think 'ugh!' in a setting you otherwise love ?


(oh, and a big shout out to those of you mailing me with explanations of theoretical shit, bringing on the 'isms and 'ologies. I love you from the bottom of my pond. I am Bette Midler and YOU are the wind beneath my wings. I am drunk :D )

Anthropomorphic ducks.

...it had societies that can't possibly support themselves.

Quote from: darAnthropomorphic ducks.

Dude, you beat me to it.

-=Grim=-

Anything ending in -Boy for RIFTS.

They're all dumb ideas...and they're the reasons I can't play it.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker...it had societies that can't possibly support themselves.

Orkworld?

If so, the argument was made that it was intentional to make people roleplay hunting, though the argument was not I think terribly persuasive...

Quote from: BalbinusOrkworld?

I did not have Orkworld in mind when I wrote my previous post.

QuoteIf so, the argument was made that it was intentional to make people role-play hunting, though the argument was not I think terribly persuasive...

I'll keep that in mind for when I encounter a copy of Orkworld.

...Good until....

 Assassination.....


 Rebellion.....,

 Virus.....

Yeah, TRAVELLER.
 They lost me when they did too much meta-plot.

 GURPS: TRAVELLER got me back into TRAVELLER, because it felt like the spirit of the original....just much more personality.


- Ed C.

I don't mind the Rebellion - especially since we now have GURPS Traveller to give us an alternate, metaplot-free timeline. It's the Virus which really sticks in my craw; they wanted to transform the Traveller setting, but they couldn't think of any way to do it using the defined parameters and elements of the setting, so they totally pulled something out of their ass. The assassination of the Emperor at the beginning of MegaTraveller was sudden but absolutely possible under the assumptions of the system. The Virus came from nowhere. (At best, you can point to a single CT adventure where the PCs find an intelligent software program on an alien microchip, but there's no Earthly reason why such a thing could even survive on the usual, non-Ancient designed computers of the setting - let alone take them over.)

Quote from: SeanSo what detail has made you think 'ugh!' in a setting you otherwise love ?

The Virus.

The Rebellion... meh. Could have worked if they put some good authors on it, had potential.

But the Virus and TNE... BLEH!

Exalted as presented soely in 1ed corebook was really good. Everything since has only really diminished it.

Gas-Core Nuclear Rockets as a standard spacecraft drive.

No, just NO.

Every design of one that I've seen is an engineering nightmare. The concept itself is inherently unsafe and all I see when I look at the designs are failure modes in which the entire ship becomes fatally radioactive or the drive itself spews its nuclear fuel across the cosmos.

Its one of the reasons my brain stops and makes grinding noises when I think of Transhuman Space.

Oh no... Traveller.

I love traveller. GURPS and Classic. And maybe a couple different versions.

Dislike the 'disease' and 'grandfather'.

I like the idea of the ancients, really cool. Just that 'grandfather' bugs me for some reason.

Quote from: signoftheserpentExalted as presented soely in 1ed corebook was really good. Everything since has only really diminished it.

I'm mainly of the same stance... except that I like the game as presented in the 1e core and in Dragon Blooded (I really prefer Dragon Blooded focused games).  It went completely sideways after that.  Games of Divinity was the nail in the coffin.

EDIT:

I'd like to add that what really killed the setting for me was the rampant spread of nihilism.  The Solars rapidly became douche bags with kewl powerz, no different from Abyssals except for trappings.  All the rest, except the Dragon Blooded, followed suit.  The Dragon Blooded, while corrupt, were essentially all that tied the setting to regular human-scale concerns that I could relate to, and therefore provided the only perspective on the setting that made any sense to me.   Just a huge amount of incongruity between my concept of "hero" (morally driven protagonist) and the game's concept of "hero" (dude with powerz!).

Quote from: architect.zero...I like the game as presented in the 1e core and in Dragon Blooded...

Another vote for 1st ed and The Dragon Blooded.  Exalted suffered from the same sort of conceptual dilution that the World o' Darkness did.  So it's odd that I have to complete the original statement "...until the original concept was so diluted and lost among trivialities that it was no longer interesting and ceased to really focus on the player characters."

Oh, and ducks, as well as baboons, pretty much make Glorantha. :)

!i!

Quote from: signoftheserpentExalted as presented soely in 1ed corebook was really good. Everything since has only really diminished it.

I'm enjoying the 2E setting material-- it's definitely more streamlined and coherent than some of latter day 1E excess. The writers seem to have a much clearer idea of the metaphysics of Creation and their expression.

That said, I still yearn for the simplicity of the 1E core. As a mythic bronze age stage upon which high-octane epics could be played out it was a great piece of work. The subsequent festooning of magitech upon every available location was annoying, and I still think the Games were one of the worst setting patches ever commited to paper. Any halfway competent GM could come up with a better idea than cosmic crack-monopoly in minutes.

Quote from: DrewI'm enjoying the 2E setting material-- it's definitely more streamlined and coherent than some of latter day 1E excess. The writers seem to have a much clearer idea of the metaphysics of Creation and their expression.

That said, I still yearn for the simplicity of the 1E core. As a mythic bronze age stage upon which high-octane epics could be played out it was a great piece of work. The subsequent festooning of magitech upon every available location was annoying, and I still think the Games were one of the worst setting patches ever committed to paper. Any halfway competent GM could come up with a better idea than cosmic crack-monopoly in minutes.

I entirely agree with the criticism about the Games of Divinity.  The presentation of Yu-Shan as a bureaucracy where a god's job directly correlated to his power, forcing corruption to occur, somehow stops the gods at the top of the system from usurping power from the Incarna and ruling things themselves.  It's nuts.

As for the Bronze Age stylings, that couldn't stand.  Both the setting's rules of god-mortal relations and the ruleset governing the game's mechanics can't help but to turn Exalted into yet another superhero setting in denial.  At least the current edition is more honest about this from the get-go.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaOh, and ducks, as well as baboons, pretty much make Glorantha. :)

I like ducks.

Quote from: droogI like ducks.

Ducks are awesome.

And it's getting close to that time of year . . .

If you mean roasted. They are not bacon.

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerAs for the Bronze Age stylings, that couldn't stand.  Both the setting's rules of god-mortal relations and the ruleset governing the game's mechanics can't help but to turn Exalted into yet another superhero setting in denial.  At least the current edition is more honest about this from the get-go.

Hmm. It could be argued that superhero stories are merely ancient myths given modern trappings. Regardless of it's validity, the perceived relationship between the two is something that Exalted ran with from get-go. I don't think the in-game fiction morphing from prose to comic book format happened on a whim.

Whatever the case, it's something I can live with. It's far easier motivating my lazy-arse players to read something with pretty pictures and speech balloons, even if the stories are of questionable quality at times. :D

Quote from: SeanOk, so I loved Skyrealms of Jorune 2nd Edition then in the 3rd edition they had to bring on the 'pods - such a lame idea, followed by a lame adventure about the pods.

"Pods"? What's this about "pods"? (I have 2e only so I don't know what you're talking about.)

incupod - Device bio-engineered to incubate and grow recos.  Looks like a big, hairy melon.

Recos are artificial life forms from the original colony's science of bio-tec.  They are short-lived (anywhere from a few hours to a few years) animals that are genetically designed by an Iscin to fill a specific function.  Recos hatch from incupods and are created by programming a cork and placing it into the incupod. Untended patches of incupods in the wild may produce a variety of recos with a variety of defects.  Wild recos may include floaters, screamers, biters, suckers and head chompers, and/or properly formed recos.

Reco A
   Dog-sized creature with four legs and two forward arms, balanced
   with a long thick tail.  Quite intelligent, capable of ranging
   ahead when walking through woodland or jungle.  

Reco B
   Virtually identical to Reco A, but with less independence for the
   traveller who does not want his reco running off without him.  

reco bridge
   Reco which grows vertically to a height of five yards and then tips
   over.  The bridge created is very solid and can support a thousand
   pounds of weight if both ends are supported.  The reco dies a few
   days after transforming.

reco crystal digger
   Specialized reco digger.

reco digger
   Reco bred to dig for water, minerals, etc.

reco milkshake maker
   Experimental reco which soaks up water and then squirts out a thick
   foamy drink.  The drink is high in vitamins and calories, but tastes
   like Play-Do.  Some are being adapted to provide other liquids.

reco rejuvenator
   Reco which can stabilize a creature in critical condition.  Injects
   a long appendage down the throat of the injured individual.

reco volunteer
   Reco bred to draw enemy fire in combat or possible ambush situations.

reco waterlung
   Reco used to permit underwater exploration for up to three hours.
   It fits itself over mouth and nose of diver and provides fresh
   and recirculated air.

Wish I had the pictures as they look awful - admittedly this was most of the problem for me. I just don't like them - especially the wild ones hopping about screaming.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaAnother vote for 1st ed and The Dragon Blooded.  Exalted suffered from the same sort of conceptual dilution that the World o' Darkness did.  So it's odd that I have to complete the original statement "...until the original concept was so diluted and lost among trivialities that it was no longer interesting and ceased to really focus on the player characters."

Oh, and ducks, as well as baboons, pretty much make Glorantha. :)

!i!

i never actually got to play Exalted and the only supplement i read was the first scavenger lands book, which was quite good.

Even then the game was still too anime video game for me in places, but i liked it and it was a much more focused product than the current iteraiton. I have 2e but I will never read it let alone run it; it's far too convoluted and far too complicated.

A real shame actually.

Quote from: signoftheserpenti never actually got to play Exalted and the only supplement i read was the first scavenger lands book, which was quite good.

Even then the game was still too anime video game for me in places, but i liked it and it was a much more focused product than the current iteraiton. I have 2e but I will never read it let alone run it; it's far too convoluted and far too complicated.

A real shame actually.

Pick what you like from the setting and ignore the rest, preferably using a different, less cumbersome ruleset.

It's what I've done, and things are working out just fine.

If i were to take that course i'd design a completely different setting. Anything else seems like a waste of time imho.

honestly, the biggest thing that kills a setting for me is one single question:

"OK, now what the fuck do I do with it?"

THS does this for me.  OK, I've got a laundry list of ridiculously powerful tech, I can download my brain into a computer and live forever in cyberspace as a God, influencing the outside world only the cameras and computer screens.

Whoopty goddamn shit.  There's still fuck all to do, partly BECAUSE everyone's a damn God.  

Exalted gets a similar meh to me.  It's loaded to the gills with "kewl powerz" or whatever the fuck, and largely surreal and bizarre settings details, but as far as I've been able to tell, there's no realy gameplay there other than wandering about wanking on about how kewl your character is.  

Rifts is another.  In half a decade of play I still never figured out what the fuck you were actually supposed to do with any of that shit.  It has to be the most static and uninteresting gameworld ever devised, just a bunch of shit plopped on random points of the map that basically just kind of stands around and does fuck all.

Quote from: signoftheserpentIf i were to take that course i'd design a completely different setting. Anything else seems like a waste of time imho.

Fair enough. I suppose it depends on how much of the setting you find interesting and how much you don't. Personally speaking it would involve far more work for me creating a brand new world than simply excising the bits I didn't like. There's enough cool stuff in Exalted to keep me playing with it for years.

Quote from: J ArcaneExalted gets a similar meh to me.  It's loaded to the gills with "kewl powerz" or whatever the fuck, and largely surreal and bizarre settings details, but as far as I've been able to tell, there's no realy gameplay there other than wandering about wanking on about how kewl your character is.  

You can do pretty much everything you would in a standard fantasy setting, albeit writ on a larger scale.

I find the "kewlness" factor no more onerous than that of superhero games. It can be great fun, providing you're aware of the stylistic conventions you're playing with.

Not a setting, but when I was a kid I saved up to buy the D&D Fiend Folio (or was it the MMII?) only to find pages and pages of walking triangles and squares inside.  Talk about a major letdown.  

Pete

Quote from: pspahnNot a setting, but when I was a kid I saved up to buy the D&D Fiend Folio (or was it the MMII?) only to find pages and pages of walking triangles and squares inside.  Talk about a major letdown.  

You're thinking of the Modrons, which appeared in MM2. I never really liked them either, but they've gained something of a following over the years.

Fiend Folio was pure brilliance in comparison, although I think a lot of my love for it is derived from the illustrations of Russ Nicholson.

Quote from: J Arcanehonestly, the biggest thing that kills a setting for me is one single question:

"OK, now what the fuck do I do with it?"

THS does this for me.  OK, I've got a laundry list of ridiculously powerful tech, I can download my brain into a computer and live forever in cyberspace as a God, influencing the outside world only the cameras and computer screens.

Whoopty goddamn shit.  There's still fuck all to do, partly BECAUSE everyone's a damn God.  

Exalted gets a similar meh to me.  It's loaded to the gills with "kewl powerz" or whatever the fuck, and largely surreal and bizarre settings details, but as far as I've been able to tell, there's no realy gameplay there other than wandering about wanking on about how kewl your character is.  

Rifts is another.  In half a decade of play I still never figured out what the fuck you were actually supposed to do with any of that shit.  It has to be the most static and uninteresting gameworld ever devised, just a bunch of shit plopped on random points of the map that basically just kind of stands around and does fuck all.

Good call, few answers make me groan more than "you can do anything in this setting".  I don't want to do anything, I want to do something.

Quote from: BalbinusGood call, few answers make me groan more than "you can do anything in this setting".

Typically followed by either the statement, "But that character concept won't work very well with the adventure I have in mind," or the question, "Okay, so how do you justify that character being with these other guys?"  There's a difference between a game world and a game setting.  The game-specific setting gives you an idea of what sort of adventures to expect and to plan accordingly.

!i!

Quote from: DrewFiend Folio was pure brilliance in comparison, although I think a lot of my love for it is derived from the illustrations of Russ Nicholson.

If Russ had done all the illustrations for the core AD&D books, that would have been awesome. :D

The modrons after Planescape were great. The little that I've read of them before that was uninspiring, to say the least. Planescape itself was great until the Faction War, which seemed petty. That alone wouldn't've been too bad (since you could always ignore it), but the guys who got handed the "official" Planescape 3e conversion website took it as canon, which made any effort to run a 3e Planescape game that much more work.

Forgotten Realms was OK before I realised that Waterdeep is Magical Toronto, and before I read that infamous document Greenwood wrote about the sexual habits of FR cultures. Now I can't take the setting seriously.

Heavy Gear was great until the focus left Terra Nova. Then it became Just Another Space Opera. The feeling of a looming war both sides were simultaneously trying to avoid and instigate collapsed into a space shoot-em up with the CEF. I blame Heavy Gear 2 the computer game for this.

Exalted's move from epic heroism with a dash of anime to a magitech superhero game spoiled the setting for me.

Quote from: StuartIf Russ had done all the illustrations for the core AD&D books, that would have been awesome. :D

Yep. He was criminally underused.

If anyone has a link to a decent gallery of Nicholson's work then please share it. Online representations of his work are sparse, to say the least.

[Talislanta]...none of the maps made any sense geographically. The river that flowed upstream, and the other major river that had no source, but instead connected two seas (and no, it wasn't a canal), were the final straws.

How can you tell that a river is flowing upstream from a map?

I think I know what you're talking about for the second, though: it's that the Inland Sea (in the east of the continent) has two outlets, one the Shan River flowing north, the other Chana River flowing south. I hadn't noticed it before but now that I look at it, it is odd. I'm no geologist but I doubt it's possible. Closest thing I've found is the two outlets of Lake Edward in Africa.

Quote from: Elliot WilenHow can you tell that a river is flowing upstream from a map?

There's a major river in the West that starts a couple miles from the sea in the north, and flows  over mountains, forests, and hills - to an outlet many hundreds of miles away in the south. That's just fucked.

You don't have to be a geologist to understand that the way you draw maps is to put the mountains in first, then start rivers in the mountain basins, follow the path of least resistence, and end in a sea. I understood that when I was drawing D&D maps when I was 10 years old.

The fact that so many RPG setting designers aren't aware of this most basic fact of geography - and hardly anyone seems to notice or call them on it - leads me wonder just how illiterate most gamers are when it comes to maps. Have they ever looked at real maps, as opposed to the ones in the front of hack fantasy novels? I mean, this isn't obscure or sophisticated stuff. Water moves downhill.

Quote from: HaffrungThe fact that so many RPG setting designers aren't aware of this most basic fact of geography - and hardly anyone seems to notice or call them on it - leads me wonder just how illiterate most gamers are when it comes to maps. Have they ever looked at real maps, as opposed to the ones in the front of hack fantasy novels? I mean, this isn't obscure or sophisticated stuff. Water moves downhill.

Geography isn't taught much in American schools anymore, along with the history of any given state (Minnesota state history isn't taught in the state schools, and the same is true nation-wide.), because it's not valued by many employers, trade unions, etc. due to the lack of immediate application to the workplace- and they have sway over education policy.

Okay, I saw that one, too, but all I picked up on was that it was crossing the continent instead of going to the sea a short distance away. Looking more closely (e.g. at this (http://www.tipop.net/art/talmap/wholemap.jpg) 2.7 MB color jpeg) I see at least a couple more rivers that do the same thing. That said, if you can draw a reasonable set of basins and continental divides, I don't think there's anything wrong in principle with having rivers cross continents, even going through mountain passes--it just has to be all downhill. Mountains are local prominences; the land as a whole can still be sloping downward.

To a degree the Amazon could be taken as a precedent, perhaps even the Nile and the Congo. But yeah, on the whole, it's a big stretch.

BTW here's a neat map (http://maps.grida.no/library/files/major_river_basins_of_the_world.jpg) showing the major river basins of the (real) world.

Quote from: DrewIf anyone has a link to a decent gallery of Nicholson's work then please share it. Online representations of his work are sparse, to say the least.

Some good stuff can be found at http://www.fightingfantasy.com/

Savage Worlds: 50 Fathoms: Really cool fantasy world without the old cliché. Really imaginative descriptions of aquatic races and then... humans. Like in "real humans from our earth (or the 19th century our earth anyway)"- meh.
Same beef with Harnmaster.

Quote from: alexandroSavage Worlds: 50 Fathoms: Really cool fantasy world without the old cliché. Really imaginative descriptions of aquatic races and then... humans. Like in "real humans from our earth (or the 19th century our earth anyway)"- meh. ...

Yeah, that is kind of weird and I'm not sure what their thinking was.  The new WizKids Pirates of the Spanish Main RPG might be a result of 50 Fathoms being too weird for a large audience.

That being said, I love it because: a) it feels very much like "The Pirates of Dark Water", b) its plot point campaign is brilliantly written, and c) it's gonzo fantasy adventure + pirates.

Engel: it suffered from the aforementioned "okay, now what do I do with it?" syndrome. It's like, alright. I have some Engel and a monolithic church. I have some bug things that pour into reality from the pillars of flame ravaging the world. I have some Mad Max shit in between them. But what do I do with it? Like, besides killing bugs and learning the predictably awful truth about the church?

It's one of those books I find cool to read but boring to run. Everything it tries to be I can do better with another game/setting.

-=Grim=-