Sandbox play, done right, is much more interesting than 'story-based' campaigns. But there's one ingredient people tend to miss, which may explain why many people have a bad experience.
#dnd #ttrpg #osr
I've seen actual active players slowly begin to expect that their characters were following a plotline, and to generally not engage in sandboxxy things. It took me awhile to realize that a change had happened to the zeitgeist about gaming expectations, and I wonder if critical roll and similar podcasts are actually driving the change or reflecting it.
The mere fact that we have to use terms like "sandbox" now, whereas before it was just a roleplaying game, is a big sign that things have definitely changed.
Quote from: Venka on February 20, 2023, 12:00:33 AM
I've seen actual active players slowly begin to expect that their characters were following a plotline, and to generally not engage in sandboxxy things. It took me awhile to realize that a change had happened to the zeitgeist about gaming expectations, and I wonder if critical roll and similar podcasts are actually driving the change or reflecting it.
The mere fact that we have to use terms like "sandbox" now, whereas before it was just a roleplaying game, is a big sign that things have definitely changed.
I'll second this. But also I have to point out this predates Critical Roll by a lot.
One particular moment from the summer of 1990 was forever etched in my mind. I was running a game for my best friend in middle school at the time, and he had a sarcastic and antagonistic personality at the time anyway, but he made a comment to the effect of, "I guess we'll do X since that's clearly what the DM wants us to do."
Some people say the truth hurts. Eh. I find something even more fundamental in human nature is, we can hardly resist correcting someone who is wrong. And especially when we're the one the person's wrong about. And that's why it burned. Even at that young age, before I was even aware of ideologies being hashed out within RPGs, I'd already made it a point that the game was about players' choices. But he said it like it was a standard expectation. Apparently the DMs he was used to were on the railroady side.
With this guy, at least he made a decisive choice to do something. Even if he felt like he was being pushed into it. The bigger problem is gamers who just don't know what to do when their hands aren't being held. And I don't even necessarily think that has to do with their previous experience being with more hand-holdy games. Normies have a term, "Analysis Paralysis." It's not all that uncommon a thing. I think it's something a sandbox DM has to be prepared to deal with.
I think it is a problem, as you point out, that we need, or even have a term like "sandbox" rather than just calling it a roleplaying game. Because just having the term brings with it some implication that you're distinguishing what you're doing as something separate from vanilla RPGs. And I think leaning too hard into the sandbox philosophy can create problems.
What good, what meaning is there in having near infinite choices if you have no reason to believe any one of those choices is any better than the other? I think it's a problem to present things too neutrally. I think there needs to be some break in symmetry in presentation so that a player finds clear value in one choice over another. And that might be thought of as leading the player by the nose if you're leaning too hard sandbox. But it's not. The choice is still the players. And the perceived value is according to the player's values.
It may be at the start of session 1, when the player is coming in cold, doesn't know his character or the world well enough, that the GM is going to have to appeal to near universal values such that it will be really hard to see it as anything other than leading the player by the nose. But as the game goes on, as the player goes through some experiences with the character, as the character's personality and history develops through play, and as the player learns more about the game world, then the player is going to start developing a less generic framework of values. And then you can start presenting options more neutrally, because the player will have the tools to find different values among those options for themselves.
Quote from: Lunamancer on February 20, 2023, 12:43:59 AM
What good, what meaning is there in having near infinite choices if you have no reason to believe any one of those choices is any better than the other?
The GM should typically 'present' 2-3 obvious choices, eg via rumours, but be ready for the PCs to go do something else. Or sometimes I ask "What do you want to do?" - if players don't know, I'll say "Well you've heard about X, and Y". I'll generally post a couple new rumours each month - I do use game time = real time.
Alternatively, give them a local map with a ton of stuff on it, IME with a map they have little trouble choosing to go loot barrow mound #27.
Quote from: Venka on February 20, 2023, 12:00:33 AM
I've seen actual active players slowly begin to expect that their characters were following a plotline, and to generally not engage in sandboxxy things. It took me awhile to realize that a change had happened to the zeitgeist about gaming expectations, and I wonder if critical roll and similar podcasts are actually driving the change or reflecting it.
The mere fact that we have to use terms like "sandbox" now, whereas before it was just a roleplaying game, is a big sign that things have definitely changed.
I wonder if in a few years this will change, as the kids who's favorite computer game was minecraft start playing D&D?
Quote from: RPGPundit on February 20, 2023, 07:56:20 AM
Quote from: Venka on February 20, 2023, 12:00:33 AM
I've seen actual active players slowly begin to expect that their characters were following a plotline, and to generally not engage in sandboxxy things. It took me awhile to realize that a change had happened to the zeitgeist about gaming expectations, and I wonder if critical roll and similar podcasts are actually driving the change or reflecting it.
The mere fact that we have to use terms like "sandbox" now, whereas before it was just a roleplaying game, is a big sign that things have definitely changed.
I wonder if in a few years this will change, as the kids who's favorite computer game was minecraft start playing D&D?
The Minecraft kids will have have their own issues though; like why they can't carry a literal million tons of items in their packs and why it takes more than a round to clear a cubic meter of solid stone.
I'm not sure that's an improvement. ;D
Yeah, I've definitely noticed the trend in players expecting rails. I don't actually think Critical Role is too much to blame, though; this is typically how beginner players try to approach the game and it takes years for players to learn otherwise (if they are ever inclined to do otherwise, that is; not all players actually outgrow the rails.)
I generally agree that the world having events going on outside the players makes it feel real and lived-in, but I typically go one notch beyond that; I design my campaigns with the antagonist intent on doing something to the world (usually destroying it because that guarantees players can't get too far off the main story) and design the quest line based on the hypothetical of what would happen if the PCs didn't exist? From there, the question is whether or not the PCs change where things would go. PCs by their nature change the world they inhabit, but you can load the quest-line in their favor by making the antagonist design a Rube Goldberg machine which the PCs only have to walk into and push random buttons to break.
There have always been rails. The group I started TTRPGs with simply went along with whatever the DM had planned, and it was always a monster bashing quest—kill everyone and take their stuff! I as actually the guy who introduced "RP" in the group when I asked one day if we could actually talk with the bad guys, then later on emphasized RP and more sandboxy play when I became DM (I tend to run more preplanned stuff these days, though).
Granted, they were influenced by JRPGs, but those were extremely new at the time, so it's not like there was this longstanding tradition of railroady video games yet (that was starting to develop at the time, though). Plus they played Basic D&D, which I'm assured is the greatest TTRPG of all time and the cure for all these ills, yet in my actual experience it didn't stop this from happening.
The guy who introduced me to TTRPGs actually goes as far as play our characters for us whenever he has something planned that requires them to take a certain course of action, cuz he takes his cues from JRPGs, where everything is a story-based railroad, with XP/treasure farming in between. And he seems to think that "the GM is always right" means that even our character's actions are controlled by him if necessary to fulfill his railroads. He even asked me one time what did I do when I play video game "RPGs" when I criticized him for it, like video game RPGs were the basis for actual TTRPGs, rather than the other way around.
One factor to consider, though, is that players tend to find it difficult to come up with stuff to do on their own if there aren't any cues in the world for what sort of stuff there is to do available. Even in real life it can be difficult to figure out what to do with your time when left to your own devices if you don't have an established routine and a set of contacts and interests to fallback on when you have nothing to do. Imagine dealing with that in a world where you have no bleeding clue WTF is going on unless the GM actually tells you what your character knows and what's transpiring all around you. That's why sandbox play tends to peter out if the GM has nothing to hook players with or throw a bone at them when a lull comes up during play.
As much as I dislike railroads, I'd be fine with Scotch roads, but in those sorts of games the players should understand why it is they want to go back to Scotland, what exactly it is that is waiting for them there. You can add different trails and paths that are variously overgrown or tamed, and there's cues like "something glints down that way," or "you hear the crunch of gravel behind you." They'll also have to stop and rest (or hide), and the NPCs they meet on the way might impart directions to the nearest tavern where the undefeated champ of arm wrestling calls his watering hole.
So don't call it "sandboxing" but call it highlandering, is the moral of that story.
Good video. I really like "future timeline" technique in a post. I only remembered seeing that in Pendragon, but apparently it is in Pundit's books too, which is great.
I think it was chirine ka bal (is that his name?) that mentioned in one of these threads that one of the most important things in old school days was the METAPLOT. I was dubious at the time, but now I see how a metaplot that does NOT directly involve the PCs is important to give the impression of a "living" setting. One of my best campaigns occurred in westeros, during Robert's peace - it was great to know what was happening to the NPCs next, without having to "force" things to fit the PCs narrative.
And it is always great to know in advance what happens if the PCs do nothing or go other way.
Anyway, here is my post about this:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2022/05/railroading-in-space-and-time-and.html
In short: the best way to avoid "railroading" might be building an explicit "railroad" of events and letting your PCs free to derail it, IF they are willing and able.
Yeah definitely sandbox is not some modern jargon but term used from decades.
Old and valid difference in style.
Call of Cthulhu, WoD, Warhammer - many classics were generally speaking not sandboxes in how they presented modes of playing, and how they wrote their modules.
So quite obviously people noticed distinction between it and D&D like sandboxing - long time ago.
(Now of course writing modules I think naturally have tendency to limit sand - so I guess there are plenty modules for D&D that also give you feeling of rails.)
Re timelines, I tend to be wary of these for sandboxing. I'd much rather roll randomly for events. I find this is much better at keeping things fresh.
Quote from: ClusterFluster on February 20, 2023, 10:28:12 AM
As much as I dislike railroads, I'd be fine with Scotch roads, but in those sorts of games the players should understand why it is they want to go back to Scotland, what exactly it is that is waiting for them there. You can add different trails and paths that are variously overgrown or tamed, and there's cues like "something glints down that way," or "you hear the crunch of gravel behind you." They'll also have to stop and rest (or hide), and the NPCs they meet on the way might impart directions to the nearest tavern where the undefeated champ of arm wrestling calls his watering hole.
So don't call it "sandboxing" but call it highlandering, is the moral of that story.
"Scotch Roads"? Well, I guess that's still better than what will from now on be the term for Venger's style of DMing: "Dutch Ovens".
Quote from: S'mon on February 21, 2023, 05:25:09 AM
Re timelines, I tend to be wary of these for sandboxing. I'd much rather roll randomly for events. I find this is much better at keeping things fresh.
These aren't really mutually exclusive concepts though. You can still randomly generate an event, then have it become part of the "timeline" (i.e., it will play out to it's natural end unless the characters intervene/interfere in some way).
Quote from: RPGPundit on February 21, 2023, 07:35:49 AM
"Scotch Roads"? Well, I guess that's still better than what will from now on be the term for Venger's style of DMing: "Dutch Ovens".
I thought it was the Dutch Rudder...?
Quote from: S'mon on February 21, 2023, 05:25:09 AM
Re timelines, I tend to be wary of these for sandboxing. I'd much rather roll randomly for events. I find this is much better at keeping things fresh.
The problem with random tables is that past events (including PCs actions) do not affect them, usually. So, instead of a country that is already divided by a succession problem (maybe because the PCs killed the king) falling into civil war, the war happens in a random, unpredictable place.
Of course, floods, tornados, etc., can be random without this issue.
Quote from: RPGPundit on February 20, 2023, 07:56:20 AM
Quote from: Venka on February 20, 2023, 12:00:33 AM
I've seen actual active players slowly begin to expect that their characters were following a plotline, and to generally not engage in sandboxxy things. It took me awhile to realize that a change had happened to the zeitgeist about gaming expectations, and I wonder if critical roll and similar podcasts are actually driving the change or reflecting it.
The mere fact that we have to use terms like "sandbox" now, whereas before it was just a roleplaying game, is a big sign that things have definitely changed.
I wonder if in a few years this will change, as the kids who's favorite computer game was minecraft start playing D&D?
I'm pretty sure it's going to be the opposite. I've played a quite a bit of minecraft myself, and have run a heavily customized server for my son and his friends, so I feel I have a solid grasp of the issues here. Minecraft is a very open sandbox, but is utterly lacking in story/plot/goals which is great for a while, but then gets really, really boring. The folks who play longer time tend to do so for a couple of reasons: creative building, PvP, and add-ons that provide story/plot/goals. I feel that kids coming in with a lot of minecraft play time are going to be craving story/plot/goals.
Another method I'm using in my current sandbox is writing questions about the future after we finish a session. These are my current ones:
- What will happen in the village of Marval after the death of the priest?
- Are you going to accept the dinner offered by Wylda Figwort, adventurer from Peranegra?
- Who sent a letter to the priest saying that "the Lord suspects nothing"?
- Will Aravis be able to lift Shadow's curse?
- Are the kobold ruins empty? Are there goblins and kobolds left to seek revenge on Fort Belarte?
I think this is all TSRs fault. When they started creating modules they did so for tournaments which are not great for sandboxes. Then they placed those modules all over Greyhawk instead around what might be a home base so that sandbox play could grow normally.
- What will happen in the village of Marval after the death of the priest?
Sounds ripe for starting a sex cult...err, alternative religion.
- Are you going to accept the dinner offered by Wylda Figwort, adventurer from Peranegra?
Can she cook?
- Who sent a letter to the priest saying that "the Lord suspects nothing"?
Satan?
- Will Aravis be able to lift Shadow's curse?
Only if he uses The Belt Of Lifting, and remembers to use his legs.
- Are the kobold ruins empty?
Well, I mean they're full of ruin at the very least. And even empty space is chocka-block with atoms.
-Are there goblins and kobolds left to seek revenge on Fort Belarte?
Hasn't this damn war cost the Goblin and Kobold communities enough? It's time to bring our boys home.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 22, 2023, 12:35:37 AM
Hasn't this damn war cost the Goblin and Kobold communities enough? It's time to bring our boys home.
Indeed it has!!! ;D
Quote from: Venka on February 20, 2023, 12:00:33 AM
The mere fact that we have to use terms like "sandbox" now, whereas before it was just a roleplaying game, is a big sign that things have definitely changed.
No it hasn't changed. The divide existed in the late 70s and early 80s when I started playing. It boils down to how the referee manages the campaign.
I liked players trashing my setting as their characters. If you are going to let players do that then you need to be flexible to make trashing the setting fun, interesting, and a challenge. Other referees back in my neck of the woods were not so flexible. Other like the by-the-numbers tournament dungeons that TSR released. While other would put a lot of prep into their campaign and expect the players not to go off on tangents.
My approach started with wargaming first. When I started playing D&D one of the two things that made go oh wow was the practical use that worldbuilding now had, and that unlike the hex and counter wargames I played you can have more expansive scenarios and victory conditions. And it was far easier to be expansive with a RPG than a SPI or Avalon Hill wargame. At least for me.
But there still was a learning on how to make specific thing work in a campaign like city versus wilderness versus dungeon adventure. And so on. Luckily Judges Guild had a bunch of rough and ready aides that made learning that quicker.
For those who are interested I released for free a basic overview of running sandbox campaigns.
The World Outside of the Dungeon
https://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/The%20World%20Outside%20of%20the%20Dungeon.pdf
I recently ran Keep on the Borderlands in Savage Pathfinder for a group of young kids. They range from 10 to 16. I'd been sort of training them for sandbox play through OSR B/X. I think that's key. Even if you're dealing with adults. Don't just dump an open world on them. Guide them along and slowly start getting them to make decisions. I ended up giving them a whole city to find quests in with plot direction, then a surrounding region with a little less. Then a province, and so on. And now I got them on KotBL and they are delighted by it. They are absolutely Minecraft zoomers and most of them don't even like Critical Role to begin with. If anything they keep demanding I make things more lethal for them. I love these kids. Best group I've had and they put adult groups I've run to shame with how well behaved and respectful they are.
Quote from: King Tyranno on February 22, 2023, 09:36:03 PM
I recently ran Keep on the Borderlands in Savage Pathfinder for a group of young kids. They range from 10 to 16. I'd been sort of training them for sandbox play through OSR B/X. I think that's key. Even if you're dealing with adults. Don't just dump an open world on them. Guide them along and slowly start getting them to make decisions.
Good job!
I wrote about the three broad things I do to make my sandbox campaigns work. The most crucial is what I call the initial context.
From here
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2017/08/my-axioms-of-sandbox-campaigns.html
Initial ContextMost sandbox campaigns fail. Why? Because of the lack of a good initial context. Many mock character histories and backgrounds but if you are going to get a sandbox campaign you are going to need a least a half page of specifics for each player and a half page of general information for the group as a whole.
Players who enjoy being plunked down in the middle of a blank map and told "Go forth and explore" are few and far between. About as common as players who enjoy playing GURPS with all the options in play at once. Most players want to feel their choices have meaning. Picking one of the six surrounding blank hexes is not a choice with meaning. So work on the initial situation so that it is interesting and gives the players enough information to make informed choices on what to do for their initial adventures.
From here
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2014/11/the-rise-and-fall-of-roleplaying.html
The initial context/situation proves to be uninterestingThis is the most common reason if a sandbox campaign ends before a half-dozen sessions. You can see this in actual play posts from the mid 2000s when the idea of sandbox campaigns was being popularized by the team behind the Wilderlands Boxed Set, including myself. We left the impression that a typical sandbox campaign started with the players on a blank map expected to explore their surroundings. Well many people tried this and found it confusing and ultimately boring. Their choices had as little meaning as in a classic plot railroad as they might as well been throwing darts at a map.
How to Manage a Sandbox Campaign: The Pre-gamehttps://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2011/04/how-to-manage-sandbox-campaign-pre-game.html
The Sandbox and Player Character Backgroundshttps://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2010/03/sandbox-and-player-character.html
Quote from: estar on February 23, 2023, 08:32:01 AM
Quote from: King Tyranno on February 22, 2023, 09:36:03 PM
I recently ran Keep on the Borderlands in Savage Pathfinder for a group of young kids. They range from 10 to 16. I'd been sort of training them for sandbox play through OSR B/X. I think that's key. Even if you're dealing with adults. Don't just dump an open world on them. Guide them along and slowly start getting them to make decisions.
Good job!
I wrote about the three broad things I do to make my sandbox campaigns work. The most crucial is what I call the initial context.
From here
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2017/08/my-axioms-of-sandbox-campaigns.html
Initial Context
Most sandbox campaigns fail. Why? Because of the lack of a good initial context. Many mock character histories and backgrounds but if you are going to get a sandbox campaign you are going to need a least a half page of specifics for each player and a half page of general information for the group as a whole.
Players who enjoy being plunked down in the middle of a blank map and told "Go forth and explore" are few and far between. About as common as players who enjoy playing GURPS with all the options in play at once. Most players want to feel their choices have meaning. Picking one of the six surrounding blank hexes is not a choice with meaning. So work on the initial situation so that it is interesting and gives the players enough information to make informed choices on what to do for their initial adventures.
From here
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2014/11/the-rise-and-fall-of-roleplaying.html
The initial context/situation proves to be uninteresting
This is the most common reason if a sandbox campaign ends before a half-dozen sessions. You can see this in actual play posts from the mid 2000s when the idea of sandbox campaigns was being popularized by the team behind the Wilderlands Boxed Set, including myself. We left the impression that a typical sandbox campaign started with the players on a blank map expected to explore their surroundings. Well many people tried this and found it confusing and ultimately boring. Their choices had as little meaning as in a classic plot railroad as they might as well been throwing darts at a map.
How to Manage a Sandbox Campaign: The Pre-game
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2011/04/how-to-manage-sandbox-campaign-pre-game.html
The Sandbox and Player Character Backgrounds
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2010/03/sandbox-and-player-character.html
Lots of useful information there. Thank you for writing the blog. I wish I knew about it 5 or so years ago when I first stared trying to inflict sandbox campaigns badly on various groups.
Quote from: King Tyranno on February 23, 2023, 08:55:31 AM
Lots of useful information there. Thank you for writing the blog.
Appreciate the compliment
Quote from: King Tyranno on February 23, 2023, 08:55:31 AM
I wish I knew about it 5 or so years ago when I first stared trying to inflict sandbox campaigns badly on various groups.
Don't feel bad, while a big cheerleader for running sandbox, I have to acknowledge that it is still not widely known. Despite it being around since the beginning of the hobby. It is not as easy to publish for or learn compared to tournament style dungeons and adventure paths.
I really need to figure out how to pick up the writing speed on my stuff. For sandbox campaigns, the main change in the past decade is I have developed more material to help a novice going with sandbox campaigns. So I have a better starting point for writing a book about this than I did when I wrote the early blog posts.
Plus now that youtube for RPG commentary is a thing I am, slowly, working on making a video companion to accompany my How to make Fantasy Sandbox series.
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2009/08/how-to-make-fantasy-sandbox.html
I started RPG with D&D at the end of the 70's. Back then, it was more or less a sandbox hobby, but that was the point, people encouraged to use imagination, create worlds, adventures, etc etc.
Compare that to WH40k. Fantastic environment, I love it, though it's getting a bit strained with silly extensions and redundant detail, but even with the RPG I found that imagination really wasn't desirable because Games Workshop had so much creative control. Okay, they didn't say "Thou must use our ideas pleb" but anything outside of their own detail was never supported or encouraged - even though the original concept did tell readers of the rulebook to do so - and everything was pushed along the route of staging games within the environment that Games Workshop had created for that express purpose. I never liked that.
In recent years I found players and referees alike have tended toward demanding rules that create their environment for them. That's a bit dispiriting to me, I remember fondly the explosion of creativity when White Dwarf magazine started and before it was a sales brochure for GW.
Sadly that's how the hobby is. The existence of computer games that have rules built in by virtue of their very nature has bred generations of RPG fans that expect the same approach from pen and paper.
Quote from: estar on February 23, 2023, 09:24:20 AM
Quote from: King Tyranno on February 23, 2023, 08:55:31 AM
Lots of useful information there. Thank you for writing the blog.
Appreciate the compliment
Quote from: King Tyranno on February 23, 2023, 08:55:31 AM
I wish I knew about it 5 or so years ago when I first stared trying to inflict sandbox campaigns badly on various groups.
Don't feel bad, while a big cheerleader for running sandbox, I have to acknowledge that it is still not widely known. Despite it being around since the beginning of the hobby. It is not as easy to publish for or learn compared to tournament style dungeons and adventure paths.
I really need to figure out how to pick up the writing speed on my stuff. For sandbox campaigns, the main change in the past decade is I have developed more material to help a novice going with sandbox campaigns. So I have a better starting point for writing a book about this than I did when I wrote the early blog posts.
Plus now that youtube for RPG commentary is a thing I am, slowly, working on making a video companion to accompany my How to make Fantasy Sandbox series.
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2009/08/how-to-make-fantasy-sandbox.html
I'll just echo King Tyranno's comment, what a great blog! I learned some of this the hard way and by piecing other sources together. When's the book coming out? :D
Quote from: rytrasmi on February 23, 2023, 09:58:10 AM
I'll just echo King Tyranno's comment, what a great blog! I learned some of this the hard way and by piecing other sources together. When's the book coming out? :D
Thanks, as for when it coming out my current schedule is
Into the Majestic Fantasy Realms Basically an expanded version of Blackmarsh with four 12" by 18" poster maps. Include some of my prior work like Southland and the Wild North.
Scourge of the Demon Wolf, 2nd EditionThe adventure is the same but the back half which was a setting supplement for the Majestic Wilderlands will now be a setting supplement for the Majestic Fantasy Realm. This is going to be quickly finished as I am just rewriting one chapter and some editing.
The Majestic Fantasy RPGThis is where the sandbox stuff will go. There will be five books. A PHB, a Monster Manual, a NPC Codex (like the MM but with various generic NPCs) and a DM/Campaign Book that will have Treasure, Magic Item, stuff like my Merchant Adventures, along with essays and advice for Sandbox Campaigns.
Deceits of the Russet LordFinally taking me into 2024 will be my next adventure. It will be formatted like Scourge of the Demon Wolf, with an adventure in the first half, and a setting supplement in the back half. The setting supplement is not required for the adventure but builds on some of the details to give the work long-term utility.
All of these have the bulk of the writing done. Good enough for the table but need extra polishing in order for folks to get the most out of them when I release. Likely they will all be under Creative Commons -BY with a note on how to use them with the OGL.
I thought this was a pretty nice video, and I'd like the Pundit to do more like this one - even though it probably generates less overall interest than the more "business of the day"/"political" videos. This distinction between the "Chronicler" and the "Plotter", I'm going to steal.
I'm a friend of both playing styles, actually: Event-based games/"interactive storytelling based on D&D rules", and location-based games/"sandbox-style games". Both can be fun, both have their place at my gaming table. Like, my raison d'être in the oldschool community is that I've been running pretty effortlessly sandbox-y games for twenty-something years already. Now, I've probably run about as much horror/Ravenloft stuff as that, and I love both forms of gaming equally. That said, I think I'm observing a number of somewhat sad and worrisome trends especially among less experienced DMs that could probably be remedied quite easily:
First, that they think they need to tell a story, instead of playing with one. Second, that their stories need to be simulations. Third, that their stories need to be intricate and sophisticated, as if they are making a professional presentation. They give themselves no room to learn, and they measure themselves against industry pros. -- This creates an atmosphere at the gaming table that I don't like, especially in "half-open" environments like conventions or in new gaming groups. The feeling towards the DM should be one of attention, not one of pressure.
Now, as a grown-ass man, I can manage pressure. As a teen or tween, that was harder. I'd rather not want kids today to perceive gaming, as awe-inspiring as it may well be when you're new, as something that puts them under pressure when they try. - Like, the important thing about all of this should be that it's a recreational activity that creates good experiences for everyone involved. Kids that aren't going to have a good experience are not going to keep gaming.
I had rails, and GMPCs, and plots, and quantum ogres. It was my very first campaign in grade school and I sucked. I got better.
Players in general have gotten a lot more passive, expecting to be entertained, or a lot more captured by the meta thinking of storytelling instead of roleplaying.
All I can do is show by example. New players can get "analysis paralysis", but I never GM all new players. I always have experienced players there for them to learn from.
Quote from: crkrueger on March 01, 2023, 10:14:23 AM
I had rails, and GMPCs, and plots, and quantum ogres. It was my very first campaign in grade school and I sucked. I got better.
Players in general have gotten a lot more passive, expecting to be entertained, or a lot more captured by the meta thinking of storytelling instead of roleplaying.
All I can do is show by example. New players can get "analysis paralysis", but I never GM all new players. I always have experienced players there for them to learn from.
Maybe it's a language issue, but a "rail", to me, would be stuff like "Masks of Nyarlathotep", or the "Grim Harvest" books for Ravenloft. Those are fun - but also, different fun than what especially oldschool-oriented D&D is supposed to be about. Especially the earliest editions of D&D simply seem a bad fit for modules like "Dragons of Despair", unless you're really willing to put some serious work in. I tend to think that this is where most newbies get confused: Like in the 80s and 90s, D&D is the game everyone wants to play - just that not everyone necessarily wants to play the game that is D&D.
One of the reasons why I think that even recent games like Symbaroum, Mournblade, Shadow of the Demonlord, or some of the recent Cthulhu variants have been so lastingly successful is just that - you get pretty specific instructions for pretty specific types of games. They simply work as advertised; D&D, especially in its most recent installments, often doesn't. Or, rather than that, D&D tends to be a much less predefined experience than other games, and that might confuse people even if everyone at the gaming table fundamentally still knows what they're doing.