The Sandbox: Real or Illusion?

Seanchai · March 11, 2008, 02:46:20 PM

Quote from: AosSo hypothetically: my party enters hex A and the Easter Bunny, who resides there in his basket of doom, kills our Stripper/Ninja and then flees. If we go mad with a desire for revenge and chase that flop eared fucker across hexes c-d (this is a plot, no?), dealing with the keyed encounters in those hexes one way or another (including avoiding them altogether) is it still sand box?

Here's a slightly tangential question: Does that ever not happen?

The specifics of the bunnies, strippers, and ninjas aside (there's a sentence you don't say every day), can you game without plot? Can you do it for more than a few hours?

It seems to me that the answer is no, that something always develops. Whether it's "Let's clear out this dungeon" or "I wonder where the monster's lair is at" or "Hmmmn, an oppressed village - let's figure out who is oppressing them and save the villagers!," plot always happens.

Seanchai

flyingmice · March 11, 2008, 02:47:09 PM

Quote from: estarLook in theory it is possible to make up everything your head, on the fly and run a sandbox. However it takes truly exceptional skill to remember everything that went on before as well as keeping everything fresh and new. I don't think you appreciate the amount of detail that can be generated for use for a sandbox game.

The key to a smooth game is for a GM to be able to look at where the players are and know what there. The faster this happens the smoother the game is. But that is not the only benefit. You see you know only what you know. Without pregenerating stuff you know what in the surrounding empty hex . A superior sandbox experience not only deal with what in a given hex but connects to the surrounding hexes as well. Doing allows the players find out what is beyond the horizon and make a reasonable choice.

I don't find it difficult at all, and I don't think I'm exceptionally skilled. In fact, the more I have previously created, the more likely I am to sub-conciously steer the players toward it. I much prefer winging things as much as possible once the game has started,

-clash

-clash

flyingmice · March 11, 2008, 02:48:32 PM

Quote from: SeanchaiHere's a slightly tangential question: Does that ever not happen?

The specifics of the bunnies, strippers, and ninjas aside (there's a sentence you don't say every day), can you game without plot? Can you do it for more than a few hours?

It seems to me that the answer is no, that something always develops. Whether it's "Let's clear out this dungeon" or "I wonder where the monster's lair is at" or "Hmmmn, an oppressed village - let's figure out who is oppressing them and save the villagers!," plot always happens.

Seanchai

The key is "Plot always happens." Plot and story are a byproduct of gaming.

-clash

Seanchai · March 11, 2008, 02:48:36 PM

Quote from: estarYes. Why wouldn't this be sandbox?

Because one of the things folks sometimes say about sandbox games is that they don't have a plot. They might just mean overarching or GM-driven plot, though.

Seanchai

Aos · March 11, 2008, 02:49:36 PM

Quote from: SeanchaiHere's a slightly tangential question: Does that ever not happen?

The specifics of the bunnies, strippers, and ninjas aside (there's a sentence you don't say every day), can you game without plot? Can you do it for more than a few hours?

It seems to me that the answer is no, that something always develops. Whether it's "Let's clear out this dungeon" or "I wonder where the monster's lair is at" or "Hmmmn, an oppressed village - let's figure out who is oppressing them and save the villagers!," plot always happens.

Seanchai

In my games something like this always happens. Probably because it's hard to fight bunnies while wearing a thong.

Seriously: Plot always comes into play in my games, i was just curios about it's relationship to the sandbox idea.

estar · March 11, 2008, 02:50:23 PM

Quote from: VBWyrdeSo I'm not fond of the name. Is there an alias that is used for Sandbox? Or could we derive one? Or, conversely, am I missing something? Thanks.

Sandbox refers to the old sand tables used by miniature wargamers. Nearly any type of terrain could be sculpted out of the wet sand so a single table could be setup to represent nearly any historical or ahistorical situation.

Even in computing a sandbox by definition is indefinitely flexible as it used to simulate a variety of situations some expansive and some restrictive.

I think sandbox is the best terms to describe this style of play.

James McMurray · March 11, 2008, 02:51:24 PM

Quote from: David ROkay but is it still sandbox if the players pregenerate the plot ? Or does sandbox mean no pregenplot by anyone ?

I'd say no, but I've never played in a game where players completely pregenerated the plot, so my expereience with the style is nil.

blakkie · March 11, 2008, 02:53:44 PM

Quote from: estarLook in theory it is possible to make up everything your head, on the fly and run a sandbox. However it takes truly exceptional skill to remember everything that went on before as well as keeping everything fresh and new. I don't think you appreciate the amount of detail that can be generated for use for a sandbox game.

Actually yeah, I think I do. And I just use a notebook. The players help too. They are usually really good about remembering what's important to them.

Seanchai · March 11, 2008, 02:54:06 PM

Quote from: David ROkay, so is sandbox play really improv play ?

If I understand correctly, I don't think it can be or wholly be. As I understand it, there have to be details for the GM to use.

Seanchai

Mcrow · March 11, 2008, 02:54:20 PM

Quote from: James McMurrayI guess the basis of my questions was: is the initiating part of the scene (getting to Corvalis) the PCs' idea or the GM's? If it was the PCs that wanted to go, you're sandboxing.

Yes, it would be there choice. Typically I have a few very basic ideas of the general happenings and situations in a given geogrphical region. I try to give them a starting point that is as wide open as possible (generally a write up on the common knowledge of what's going on in the area) then let them decide where in the region to start and what they plan to do. Regions vary in size but generally include multiple settlements. Of course the players are free to do what they please and go where they please.

James McMurray · March 11, 2008, 02:55:05 PM

Quote from: VBWyrdeFascinating. I've been playing sandbox all these years and never knew there was a name for it. But then again, I'm not at all fond of the term "Sandbox" for this. Sandbox, to my mind, is the baby area where kids play, or in businesses its a confined play area for data. In either case sandbox represents a constraint. However, what you are describing as the "sandbox" type of world setting appears to be the opposite. So I'm not fond of the name. Is there an alias that is used for Sandbox? Or could we derive one? Or, conversely, am I missing something? Thanks.

I've never heard it called that outside forums. Around the table we just call it "gaming."

James McMurray · March 11, 2008, 02:57:06 PM

Quote from: SeanchaiTo what part? The night's events? The span of time the game is supposed to run?

Because it seems to me that sandbox style games have to have some sort of plot. They may not start out with one, but it seems as if they have to gain at least a brief one. Someone in another thread said they literally play without one, moving from hex to hex, but I can't imagine many folks doing that or for long.

I'll repeat, since it seems it got missed in the flurry:

Sandbox != No Plot
Sandbox = No Pregenerated Plot

QuoteYou mention overarching plot. How overarching is too overarching for it to be a sandbox?

Did it happen because the GM wanted to run adventure X, or because the GM stuck a seed somewhere, the PCs found it, and they opted to follow up on it?

QuoteAs said in my original message, what I've heard collectively about sandbox play hasn't sounded any different than almost any game I've ever run with any system I've ever used.

Congratulations! You're a sandboxer.

Quote from: SeanchaiSo would a module or pre-designed adventure that lacked a seriously linear plot also be a sandbox?

Probably. For example, several people (me included) have mentioned Keep on the Borderlands.

James McMurray · March 11, 2008, 02:58:03 PM

Quote from: McrowYes, it would be there choice. Typically I have a few very basic ideas of the general happenings and situations in a given geogrphical region. I try to give them a starting point that is as wide open as possible (generally a write up on the common knowledge of what's going on in the area) then let them decide where in the region to start and what they plan to do. Regions vary in size but generally include multiple settlements. Of course the players are free to do what they please and go where they please.

I'd definitely call that sandbox style.

Seanchai · March 11, 2008, 02:59:07 PM

Okay. New wrinkle. Sandboxes and system. What's the deal? Are some intimical to sandboxes and, if so, why?

From what I'm hearing, it doesn't sound like they even cross paths.

Seanchai

VBWyrde · March 11, 2008, 02:59:19 PM

Quote from: James McMurrayI've never heard it called that outside forums. Around the table we just call it "gaming."

Ah that might explain it. Heh. Ok. At least I will now know what is meant on the forums by "sandbox".

Thanks.

Also, thanks for the explaination for the historical context of the term Estar. I see.