I think we are quibbling over terminology here with the word "seeds".  Circumstance is better.  I think of seeds as something given to the players to plant, water and care for.  But yes, I agree with all the above distinctions.

For me, there is a distinction and it's very important.  

Mainly, it's because I let myse-- no no, no, I suckered myself into the notion that a good RPG was fun, but a great one had plot, mise-en-scene, mood, themes, pacing...all the things that make a great movie, say, or a great book, or a thrill ride.

At one point, an influence came at me from an unexpected angle, and I set about rethinking my playstyle, my GMing, my...my everything.

The catalyst:  Grand Theft Auto - Vice City.

I got really into playing that game, and became enraptured with the free-roaming, exploratory nature of it.  It was an open world, with a few ground rules; it had definite plot threads to follow, sub-plots and side-plots, mini-games and great tunes.

I started thinking of Vice City as a fun (if not exactly safe) place to inhabit, and started thinking things like, "Why not do this on a table-top?"

Then, I noticed my Intercomputerweb gamer cronies talking about "sandbox"-style gaming, and I heard that GTA:VC's designers took a "sandbox" approach, and then I went, "Aaaah, sandbox.  Yes, this is an idea that I like."

Then, on a trip out of town, I bought this solo RPG at a discount bookstore, and it had a map in it, and the first part of the solo said, "You wash up on shoe; which way do you go?"  And I was, like, "HOLY CATS, THIS IS WHAT I, AS A GAMEMASTER, HAVE BEEN MISSING OUT ON."

The idea of sandbox-style games, therefore, is definitely of importance to me because although it's not new or revolutionary or even all shiny and neon and light-up and thumpy like New Order's "Blue Monday", it's the idea that re-energized me as a GM.

I'm gonna cross-post this to my blog.

Quote from: David ROkay, so is sandbox play really improv play ?

Only in the sense that all RPGs are improv. The GM can (and often does) still pregenerate the world around the PCs. The biggest difference is that he doesn't pregenerate the plot.

Quote from: jibbajibba*Linear plot (like in 1st person computer rpgs which are really tight and you can't actually visit some locations until they are 'unlocked' by previous actions)

Railroad. Usually applied negatively.

Quote*Personal goal driven adventures (where each character has their own personal object set by themselves or the GM and they do this is a kind of a "sandboxed" world - you know "Indigo your goal is to find and kill the six fingered man that killed your father")

Player driven play.

QuotePersonally I nearly always play a mix of timeline driven and personal goals and I think we would tire of a sandboxed world were there was no narative. Maybe that's why I don't use random encounters.

Sandbox != no narrative. Sandbox = no narrative driven solely by the GM, and no imperative to do task X. It doesn't mean that there isn't a group of angry cultists trying to call down Cthulu, but it does mean that the GM doesn't set things up so that the players will definitely encounter this group and be compelled to stop them.

It's just player directed "plot" right, they are just [attempting] to do something that they made up? You don't put on the requirement that to be sandbox everything of note in the world is pregen?

Quote from: blakkieIt's just player directed "plot" right, they are just [attempting] to do something that they made up? You don't put on the requirement that to be sandbox everything of note in the world is pregen?

Right. Most GMs will pregenerate a lot of the world, but some just grab some random tables and say "let's go!"

Quote from: James McMurrayRight. Most GMs will pregenerate a lot of the world, but some just grab some random tables and say "let's go!"

Okay but is it still sandbox if the players pregenerate the plot ? Or does sandbox mean no pregenplot by anyone ?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: AosNone of this is going to bring back my beloved Stripper/ninja, though. Nights around the campfire will never be the same. All I have now is the memories of that lapdance back in Hex 7240. Curse you, Easter Bunny!

Maybe so.  But you've heard rumors of something called "Fenher's Jacuzzi of Resurrection"...they say it's over in hex 1267.

I ran across this just now:

http://www.pied-piper-publishing.com/index.php/robilar_remembers/lord_robilar_co

It's a retelling of the adventures of Robilar. Robilar was Rob Kuntz's character in Gygax's Greyhawk campaign. Basically this is a very rough campaign log, for something that took place nearly 40 years ago.

Read the account, and then try and imagine how the game was structured.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Maybe so.  But you've heard rumors of something called "Fenher's Jacuzzi of Resurrection"...they say it's over in hex 1267.

Looks like I'm a bit if shovel work and a Thoat ride away from an evening of "gentleman's" entertainment! Thanks doc, next time I come by Hex 3250, I'll have to look you up.

Quote from: darThere isn't an overarching plot.

To what part? The night's events? The span of time the game is supposed to run?

Because it seems to me that sandbox style games have to have some sort of plot. They may not start out with one, but it seems as if they have to gain at least a brief one. Someone in another thread said they literally play without one, moving from hex to hex, but I can't imagine many folks doing that or for long.

You mention overarching plot. How overarching is too overarching for it to be a sandbox?

Quote from: darI think that most campaigns are sandbox by default.

As said in my original message, what I've heard collectively about sandbox play hasn't sounded any different than almost any game I've ever run with any system I've ever used.

Seanchai

Quote from: Zachary The FirstTo me, sandbox play is play largely unfettered by seriously linear plot.

So would a module or pre-designed adventure that lacked a seriously linear plot also be a sandbox?

I'd imagine games can stop being sandboxes. How often do folks think that occurs?

Seanchai

Quote from: blakkieIt's just player directed "plot" right, they are just [attempting] to do something that they made up? You don't put on the requirement that to be sandbox everything of note in the world is pregen?

Look in theory it is possible to make up everything your head, on the fly and run a sandbox. However it takes truly exceptional skill to remember everything that went on before as well as keeping everything fresh and new. I don't think you appreciate the amount of detail that can be generated for use for a sandbox game.

The key to a smooth game is for a GM to be able to look at where the players are and know what there. The faster this happens the smoother the game is. But that is not the only benefit. You see you know only what you know. Without pregenerating stuff you know what in the surrounding empty hex . A superior sandbox experience not only deal with what in a given hex but connects to the surrounding hexes as well. Doing allows the players find out what is beyond the horizon and make a reasonable choice.

Quote from: Abyssal MawTotal agreement.

The real issue is whether or not you inject the 90's style "here's the plot" structure. If you do at all, it's not a sandbox.

Most current and recent "game theory" does not address sandbox at all. Game theorists usually struggle with the issue of "how" to inject the "here's the plot" (do we railroad? Do we just constrain the rules so that nobody can possibly talk about anything else but the plot? Do we set up a story-game style 'premise' that has to be addressed?, etc.

Sandbox gaming can be broken down into two types, which I think of as Matrixed and Unmatrixed.

Unmatrixed is the style where you use random tables and procedural generation a lot.  

Matrixed is where a large area (of a map, say) has been "keyed", but the players have free rein to wander. So a low level party could walk into a dangerous area, and the DM would just run the encounter. Or they could wander into an area that is far beneath their level, or where nothing really is.
Rob Kuntz style dungeons are a good example of this.

I think the sandbox is a may of describing adventuring on a map. Whether the map is keyed or not has a subtle difference.

Fascinating.  I've been playing sandbox all these years and never knew there was a name for it.   But then again, I'm not at all fond of the term "Sandbox" for this.  Sandbox, to my mind, is the baby area where kids play, or in businesses its a confined play area for data.   In either case sandbox represents a constraint.   However, what you are describing as the "sandbox" type of world setting appears to be the opposite.   So I'm not fond of the name.  Is there an alias that is used for Sandbox?   Or could we derive one?   Or, conversely, am I missing something?   Thanks.

Quote from: estarSandbox is more detailed. You don't just say I travel 500 miles via caravan to the next adventure. Players have to make their way through that 500 miles. Products supporting sandbox will give you the detail needed to referee that 500 miles.

I touched on this briefly in the other thread, but does it really provide 500 miles worth of details? It seems to me that there will be a lot of blanks on the map.

I don't have the Wilderness product folks keep mentioning, but would the Known World boxed set by Goodman Games be considered a sandbox? I could reference it and provide more concrete examples of what I'm talking about.

Seanchai