Quote from: J ArcaneAnd yet he gets defensive and weird when people assume he's with the Forge?

Huh?  Did I use some forge language there?  Because if so, I wasn't aware.

Quote from: KenHRYou and that brain-damaged head of yours...

In seriousness, I don't remotely see anything wrong with using the term "sandbox" for this style of play given that its usage is  inbasically every respect identical to the usage in the vidgaming sector.

Quote from: VBWyrdeActually I'm not objecting to any one person's usage.  I'm pointing out that there is no authorized defintion (nor can there be since RPGs have at present no authorizing body that all RPGers feel is representative), and that therefore any discussion of Theory is somewhat pointless, since the basic terms are subject to personal interpretation.  I got this impression just now from the general back and forth nature of the discussion on Sandbox, wherein I find this to be the case.   Sandbox, therefore, it seems to me, is a term that can be lightly used to mean one of a number of similar, but not exactly the same, things in RPGs, ... and that's ok.   Personally, I like my term "Free Play" for the same meaning.   The term seems more representative to me of what the Sandbox is, by some, intended to mean.

I don't get your post.  At first you seem to discard the entire thread as useless.  I think within a discernible range, we have all come to a consensus on what Sandbox is.

But then in the second part, you seem to agree that we have come to a consensus, but you just don't like the word.  I can work with "Free Play" but as Sandbox has long been accepted in the video game world (where the distinction is starker because of the nature of the medium), I'll stick with it.

Quote from: James McMurrayI'd love to hear about them if you've got the time to start a thread. It makes me want to run a guard campaign. It'd be a sort of urban Reverse Dungeon.

Seconded.  Quite a clever idea.  Sounds very KoDT.  As GM, instead of coming up with monsters, you just come up with adventuring parties and just keep ramping up the munchkinness.

And sociopathology. It really is a great idea, and it would get a certain point across much better, and much more tastefully, than Costikyan's Violence.

Quote from: VBWyrdeIs there an alias that is used for Sandbox?

On rec.games.frp (Usenet) we used to call it "world-based" play, somewhat vaguely. I.e., the goal of simulating a world was enunciated, but the methods might be up for debate. E.g. (this is something I've been thinking about lately):

• Simple stochastic models for game-world elements at the point they impact the PCs, or detailed mechanistic models?

E.g. do you need to know the itinerary of NPC X and then superimpose it on the PCs' travels to see if they cross paths? Or do you just make him/her an item on your encounter tables?

• Essentially static world ("frozen in amber") , or timetable?

E.g., are the ruffians ready to cut the woman's throat at the exact moment the PCs arrive? Or is it that if the PCs arrive in January, the ruffians are nuisance and have a feud with the woman's family, on February 15 they're threatening to kill/kidnap her, in March she's dead. Except if the PCs show up sometime in the midst of the timeline, they can make it turn out differently. If they get there too late, they can still interact with the aftermath--the ruffians are now ruling the city in a reign of terror, for example.

• Wandering PCs vs. linked-in PCs?

If PCs start with or develop a place in the world, ties to NPCs, etc., then is it still a world-based game? I say yes, especially if you have timetables and random events that can impact the PCs or their relations, or if the PCs are ambitious (entrepreneurs in a way) who want to build their empire.

Aside from all that, I've also seen a term, "status quo campaign" that's very closely related, perhaps identical in meaning, to sandbox/world-based.

Quote from: James McMurrayRolemaster, with its 30 pages of charts that you could use to create almost an entire world on the fly, was incredibly well suited to sandboxing. If you went off the map, new stuff could be generated in seconds.

Which edition of Rolemaster would this be, and could one get much utility with just the GM's book in combination with an alternate system of one's choice?

Quote from: Elliot WilenWhich edition of Rolemaster would this be, and could one get much utility with just the GM's book in combination with an alternate system of one's choice?

It was 2nd edition. The charts are all in Creatures and Treasures. IIRC about the only thing they won't generate is major terrain. For instance, you won't roll "Mountain range." However "water source" was an option, with results that would tell you if it was a river or lake, what was in it, etc.

How useful it would be would depend on what system you're using. A lot of the results are creatures that are in the book, but many would share names with generic fantasy critters. If you're using AD&D the book has conversion rules so you can get the stats for a Killer Bunny.

Quote from: walkerpHuh?  Did I use some forge language there?  Because if so, I wasn't aware.

I'd be shocked to find out there was someone who'd made 1,180 posts here and never come into contact with the basic building blocks of GNS.

Terrain generation is in Campaign Law for RM2.  With that and Creatures & Treasures, you could theoretically generate a solid base for a world using dice.  Campaign Law also has some very good advice among the tables.

Quote from: James McMurrayI'd be shocked to find out there was someone who'd made 1,180 posts here and never come into contact with the basic building blocks of GNS.

Honestly, I'm doing quite well in this regard, see no evil and all.

Quote from: HaffrungAre you familiar with Paizo's Adventure Paths? They are fundamentally different from sandbox play. Each adventure is carefully tailored to a specific power level.

So is Keep on the Borderlands.

Seanchai

Quote from: estarIf it even remotely simulates a complete society an RPG can be used for a sandbox.

Does OD&D do so? I'd say no myself...

Quote from: estarGames with a narrow focus, (like Vampire the Masquarde) would cause a lot of work for a GM to do a sandbox.

How so? Is, say, the Chicago sourcebook for nWoD just a gigantic sandbox?

Seanchai

Quote from: James McMurrayI'd say no, but I've never played in a game where players completely pregenerated the plot, so my expereience with the style is nil.

James thanks for your answers. I think I more or less get it now. I find most of the talk here incoherent and wrapped up in identity politics except for yours and Seanchai's. So my last question.

Sandbox is a playstyle, right ? You can use it for most systems out there ? (Some settings/systems are specifically designed for this sort of play, but you can most trad systems for it)

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RJames thanks for your answers. I think I more or less get it now. I find most of the talk here incoherent and wrapped up in identity politics except for yours and Seanchai's. So my last question.

Ouch.  I'm missing something in these threads that others seem to be seeing.

Quote from: David RSandbox is a playstyle, right ? You can use it for most systems out there ? (Some settings/systems are specifically designed for this sort of play, but you can most trad systems for it)

I would say yes, but after your previous paragraph, it's hard for me to say if that is being filtered through my lens of identity politics (though what my identity is, I'm not sure; one of you will tell me, I'm sure).