Quote from: Suarachán on August 23, 2024, 03:45:58 PM

Quote from: blackstone on August 23, 2024, 08:08:22 AMCurious, what places are those?

Reddit mostly!

Quote from: WERDNA on August 23, 2024, 02:54:40 PMBtw, how many issues of Wormskin were there?

8 total.

Yeah that sounds like Reddit.

Regarding the change from "minstrel" to "bard," there was a single post on the Kickstarter by someone who complained that the word made them "uncomfortable," after which the revision was quickly announced in an update. I'll just copy what I posted in response at the time...

Quote"I've been running a Dolmenwood campaign for over a year, using the materials provided to Patreon supporters, and I have been looking forward to the Kickstarter and the eventual release of the finished product more than any RPG in recent memory. That said, I'm extremely disappointed that Necrotic Gnome has decided to acquiesce to a single commenter who expressed concern about the name of the Minstrel class. There's nothing inherently "problematic" or "uncomfortable" about the word "minstrel." As a term for a medieval entertainer, it is inoffensive, perfectly accurate, and wholly appropriate to the Dolmenwood setting.

It is only through its association with the "minstrel shows" of 19th-century America that the word causes discomfort. However, this association is not implicit or explicit in any of the Dolmenwood materials; it is an association that was made in the mind of an individual, who then drew attention to their discomfort with the term. And here we are, purging language that might make even a single person uncomfortable due to its connection to a terrible thing that has nothing to do with the setting.

At the risk of causing further damage, shouldn't we also demand the removal of the word "fairy," given its recent history as a homophobic slur? Shouldn't we demand the renaming of the "harridan," due to the term's implicit misogyny? Shouldn't we demand the removal of the word "witch," since there are actual people in the world who identify as such and might be offended by its use in the setting? And on and on it goes...

At what point does the policing of language and the purging of any word that MIGHT cause offense or discomfort become ridiculous? Unfortunately, I fear that line has been crossed."

I received no official response from the author or publisher, but I was called a "monster," a "snowflake," and "butthurt" by other backers for daring to suggest that language should not be censored, limited, or curtailed because a tiny minority of people might be offended by it.

Needless to say, the fact that Necrotic Gnome so readily bowed to the "concerns" of one person, along with the other, subsequent changes that Suarachán identified, have definitely dampened my enthusiasm for the setting.

I've been running a Dolmenwood campaign since the first version of the kickstarter pdfs came out. This is interesting to me, since I never read the Wormskin zines. The campaign's going fine, but I can't say I feel like it was worth the money. Arguably, that's user error, as I haven't been encouraging my players to explore hexes, but the more time I spend with the Campaign Book, the less I want to.

A couple of random thoughts on points from your article:

The switchover from "minstrel" to "bard" happened mid-campaign for us, and it was something that disappointed both myself and several players. More disappointing now that I know why that choice was made. Almost no one in America even knows what a minstrel show is anymore, so you can bet that was changed based on a single complaint from one hyper racially-obsessed backer. (EDIT: While I was typing, Angus MacDeth put up his post and confirmed this). If they had to change it, they could have at least gone to "Troubadour" or something.

Switching the Goatmen over from a pure evil race to a morally neutral one is I think actually a good idea in the context of the final product. The High Wold is a pretty large section of the Dolmenwood map, and the change makes it a more open adventure location. You've still got the Nagwood and the Crookhorns if you want to do the evil goatmen thing. And once you're letting people play talking cats and bat gremlins, you've already given up on any semblance of trying to keep the demihumans mysterious or alien.

The problem I have with the witches in the current version of Dolmenwood is that they just feel kind of pointless and tacked on. They don't have much of a goal, or a role in the interplay of factions (in a setting that arguably has too many factions already), and their thematics/aesthetics are too similar to the Drune. I kind of like their lore in the abstract, but I see no reason to actually use them in a campaign. I like the Wormskin lore for them better, but any kind of erotic horror tends to fall utterly flat at the roleplaying table, so no great loss. Also, They only added monster book stats for witches in the last update, and I find it funny that the entry mentions their eternal youth and has a bunch of pictures of young women, but the campaign book still has illustrations of all the senior witches as middle-aged hags.

Quote from: Suarachán on August 23, 2024, 04:40:57 AMThe setting was reflective rather than derivative and one of the few settings that I have seen that would actually support a dark fantasy campaign.

I'm a little curious what you mean by this. I have a pretty specific idea of what dark fantasy should be (though I'm used to my definition not agreeing with other people's). To me, Dolmenwood has always been too silly to be dark fantasy. I think one of my players was in a Dolmenwood Campaign prior to the kickstarter, so maybe I'll ask him if it felt different.  From the stuff you showed, the Wormskin iteration seems like it leaned more towards folk horror, where maybe the current rendition is just folk-fantasy, I might even say folk-gonzo.

There were a number of Kickstarter backers who suggested "troubadour" as a possible replacement for "minstrel," since the term "bard" has its own baggage (particularly its association with the idiotic depictions in Critical Role and other streaming shows). All of those backers' voices were ignored.

Quote from: ForgottenF on August 23, 2024, 06:50:05 PMFrom the stuff you showed, the Wormskin iteration seems like it leaned more towards folk horror, where maybe the current rendition is just folk-fantasy, I might even say folk-gonzo.

Definitely... The original folk horror vibe--which evokes films like The Wicker Man, Midsommar, and The VVitch--is exactly what attracted me to the setting in the first place. Fortunately, since I still have access to most of Wormskin and the Patreon materials, my version of Dolmenwood still has that tone.

If I backed for a dark fantasy book then I sure as fuck better get the product that was advertised. Not a bait-n-switch.

What are the odds that they do not honor any calls for refunds? Thats typical of these things when they go bad.

Quote from: Slambo on August 23, 2024, 06:24:07 PM

Quote from: Suarachán on August 23, 2024, 03:45:58 PM

Quote from: blackstone on August 23, 2024, 08:08:22 AMCurious, what places are those?

Reddit mostly!

Quote from: WERDNA on August 23, 2024, 02:54:40 PMBtw, how many issues of Wormskin were there?

8 total.

Yeah that sounds like Reddit.

Very Reddit and BGG.

Quote from: Omega on August 23, 2024, 08:07:50 PM

Quote from: Slambo on August 23, 2024, 06:24:07 PM

Quote from: Suarachán on August 23, 2024, 03:45:58 PM

Quote from: blackstone on August 23, 2024, 08:08:22 AMCurious, what places are those?

Reddit mostly!

Quote from: WERDNA on August 23, 2024, 02:54:40 PMBtw, how many issues of Wormskin were there?

8 total.

Yeah that sounds like Reddit.

Very Reddit and BGG.

Most sites nowadays I'd wager.  "You want to keep a term some rando said was problematic?  Are you a yahtzee?"

It's like saying we can't have "dragons" because of the KKK.

Quote from: Zalman on August 23, 2024, 08:29:14 PMIt's like saying we can't have "dragons" because of the KKK.

Give em time and that word will be censored too.

Quote from: Omega on August 23, 2024, 08:53:39 PM

Quote from: Zalman on August 23, 2024, 08:29:14 PMIt's like saying we can't have "dragons" because of the KKK.

Give em time and that word will be censored too.

Sadly, you probably aren't wrong. Several years ago I enjoyed a number of card games made by White Wizard Games (a Gandalf reference). Then the George Floyd fiasco happened and they rebranded to Wise Wizard Games because "white" is problematic and obviously "white wizard" can only be a reference to the KKK. Nobody had complained, to my knowledge, but they wanted to jump on the bandwagon and virtue signal as strongly as possible before anyone bitched about it.

So it wouldn't surprise me at all if, in the next decade or so, there isn't a push to drop "Dungeons and Dragons" and rebrand purely to "D&D" instead.

Updated with comment from Gavin and new evidence showing external influence making changes.

Quote from: Omega on August 23, 2024, 08:07:50 PM

Quote from: Slambo on August 23, 2024, 06:24:07 PMYeah that sounds like Reddit.

Very Reddit and BGG.

There's a group of Reddit harassers who organise on Discord, apparently. They post the things they don't like and go downvote en masse. This is supposedly against the Reddit rules, but it's a classic case of rules for thee and not for me.

Quote from: ForgottenF on August 23, 2024, 06:50:05 PM

Quote from: Suarachán on August 23, 2024, 04:40:57 AMThe setting was reflective rather than derivative and one of the few settings that I have seen that would actually support a dark fantasy campaign.

I'm a little curious what you mean by this. I have a pretty specific idea of what dark fantasy should be (though I'm used to my definition not agreeing with other people's). To me, Dolmenwood has always been too silly to be dark fantasy. I think one of my players was in a Dolmenwood Campaign prior to the kickstarter, so maybe I'll ask him if it felt different.  From the stuff you showed, the Wormskin iteration seems like it leaned more towards folk horror, where maybe the current rendition is just folk-fantasy, I might even say folk-gonzo.

Dolmenwood probably does tread the line of being too silly, but I don't think it even goes over it. At least in the Wormskin material.

I think the witches were a great reflection of dark feminine traits taken to a fantastical extreme. The goatmen were the (literally) rapacious, animalistic undercurrent of the aristocracy, concerned with fucking and power games rather than actually solving anything.

Stuff like this is resonant rather than explicit. It's just a way of making really good material.

Quote from: Angus MacDeth on August 23, 2024, 06:30:02 PMRegarding the change from "minstrel" to "bard," there was a single post on the Kickstarter by someone who complained that the word made them "uncomfortable," after which the revision was quickly announced in an update. I'll just copy what I posted in response at the time...

Quote"I've been running a Dolmenwood campaign for over a year, using the materials provided to Patreon supporters, and I have been looking forward to the Kickstarter and the eventual release of the finished product more than any RPG in recent memory. That said, I'm extremely disappointed that Necrotic Gnome has decided to acquiesce to a single commenter who expressed concern about the name of the Minstrel class. There's nothing inherently "problematic" or "uncomfortable" about the word "minstrel." As a term for a medieval entertainer, it is inoffensive, perfectly accurate, and wholly appropriate to the Dolmenwood setting.

It is only through its association with the "minstrel shows" of 19th-century America that the word causes discomfort. However, this association is not implicit or explicit in any of the Dolmenwood materials; it is an association that was made in the mind of an individual, who then drew attention to their discomfort with the term. And here we are, purging language that might make even a single person uncomfortable due to its connection to a terrible thing that has nothing to do with the setting.

At the risk of causing further damage, shouldn't we also demand the removal of the word "fairy," given its recent history as a homophobic slur? Shouldn't we demand the renaming of the "harridan," due to the term's implicit misogyny? Shouldn't we demand the removal of the word "witch," since there are actual people in the world who identify as such and might be offended by its use in the setting? And on and on it goes...

At what point does the policing of language and the purging of any word that MIGHT cause offense or discomfort become ridiculous? Unfortunately, I fear that line has been crossed."

I received no official response from the author or publisher, but I was called a "monster," a "snowflake," and "butthurt" by other backers for daring to suggest that language should not be censored, limited, or curtailed because a tiny minority of people might be offended by it.

Needless to say, the fact that Necrotic Gnome so readily bowed to the "concerns" of one person, along with the other, subsequent changes that Suarachán identified, have definitely dampened my enthusiasm for the setting.

Thank you, really good post.

I've been sent evidence from someone else showing that at least one of the other changes was made due to a single person complaining on Enworld of all fucking things.

I might go and complain to Wizards of the Woke about their word Dragons, just to be a jerk.

And Wizards.

Quote from: Brand55 on August 23, 2024, 09:25:16 PM

Quote from: Omega on August 23, 2024, 08:53:39 PM

Quote from: Zalman on August 23, 2024, 08:29:14 PMIt's like saying we can't have "dragons" because of the KKK.

Give em time and that word will be censored too.

Sadly, you probably aren't wrong. Several years ago I enjoyed a number of card games made by White Wizard Games (a Gandalf reference). Then the George Floyd fiasco happened and they rebranded to Wise Wizard Games because "white" is problematic and obviously "white wizard" can only be a reference to the KKK. Nobody had complained, to my knowledge, but they wanted to jump on the bandwagon and virtue signal as strongly as possible before anyone bitched about it.

So it wouldn't surprise me at all if, in the next decade or so, there isn't a push to drop "Dungeons and Dragons" and rebrand purely to "D&D" instead.

Also, almost certainly why the maker of Savage Worlds changed his company name from "Great White Games" to "Pinnacle Entertainment Group".  Shane apparently really likes sharks, but I'm sure some idiots thought he was a raging racist.

I am incredibly thankful this topic arose. I was about to drop some money on Dolmenwood in the hopes it would be like Wormskin. Clearly it's not. I'm good with saving that money now.

Haven't been following along the Discord about it for a while as I having been working too much lately. Scrolling back is a pain, but the "if you don't like it, we don't want your money" is there and as soon as a gaming company finds it acceptable to adopt that sort of phrasing to their customer base, I'm out no matter what it's about.

Quote from: Zalman on August 23, 2024, 08:29:14 PMIt's like saying we can't have "dragons" because of the KKK.

Exactly... Man, I wish I'd thought of that analogy.

Quote from: Suarachán on August 24, 2024, 03:17:03 AMThank you, really good post.

Thanks!

Unfortunately, my argument didn't have any effect at all, other than to rile up a bunch of self-righteous outrage-mongers who chimed in to cheer on the revisions. One of them actually commented, without irony, "I believe in freedom of speech, so if you want to change the word, you should change the word."

It's amazing to me how often these days people who say they "believe in freedom of speech" actually end up taking a position that limits, curtails, or censors speech, but I suppose that's where we are now.

Quote from: Suarachán on August 24, 2024, 03:17:03 AMI've been sent evidence from someone else showing that at least one of the other changes was made due to a single person complaining on Enworld of all fucking things.

I remember that thread! It quickly devolved into claims that the suggestion that the offspring of two entirely different species (i.e., half-goatfolk) might exhibit genetic defects was "rooted in Lovecraft's racism."

At the time, I just laughed at the thought that someone would cancel their pledge in protest over the idea that interbreeding between humans and an imaginary species of goat people in a fictional setting would produce offspring with genetic abnormalities. I never imagined that Necrotic Gnome would actually change the lore of the goatfolk based on that one complaint, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised.