Quote from: J Arcane;626864I also think it's a reason why Shadowrun did so well and is so fondly loved by many despite the actual mechanics being kind of rubbish, because the model of mission-based play adheres to a scenario type.

I think you need to find another reason, I have all the early Shadowrun adventures and have played them in the last decade- in many cases raidroaded (i.e follow the plot of the writer) is definitely one of the best words for a number of them.

We would had to do a fair amount of work pulling some that out, but mostly we just flowed with it.

I don't know anyone who ever even bought a Shadowrun published adventure, let alone ran one.

The folks I know who loved the game all ran their own shadowruns, and they tended to be of a distinctly dungeon/mission structure: "go in this building, find/hack/destroy/explode MacGuffin".

Quote from: J Arcane;626874I don't know anyone who ever even bought a Shadowrun published adventure, let alone ran one.

The folks I know who loved the game all ran their own shadowruns, and they tended to be of a distinctly dungeon/mission structure: "go in this building, find/hack/destroy/explode MacGuffin".

So they love their own style of playing the game and not really the game itself.

Seems like that would work with anything. Why bother pointing out Shadowrun as something special then?

Ladies and Gentleman, exhibit #347 why you do not engage the gliechman.

My bad.

Quote from: J Arcane;626857A premise or a scenario is an initial set of circumstances and variables.

A plot is an order of events.

The former is great for RPGs because it sets the scene, but lets the players roam about as they choose and events unfold organically.  A "plot" will emerge from that, of a sort, but it is an unplanned, organic sort of plot.  

Trying to make a plot happen is, I think, a fool's errand.  You simply cannot plan for what the players will try to do with your plot, so any linear or even branching series of events is going to fall on its face and become irrelevant inside of five minutes, unless you manipulate the game as such that players have to follow your plot.  

Unfortunately, RPG adventures of the last 30 years or so largely took on the structure of plot over premise because it was easier to write in some ways, and it made them of fuck all use for actually gaming, and taught a lot of gamers a very awkward and rubbish way of going about running an RPG.

Um, the thing you quoted an answered to there, was really directed towards me, so i would understand what "premise" means.

I'm certain he agrees with you, it is just that he used the word "plot" as i had used the word, so that i would understand, but not really as you just used the word ...

Let me explain:
I may be using the word "plot" wrong according to you, but please bear with me.
Plot, to me, is a situation, and a series of tied-in events that will happen.
However, once the Characters encounters those plots, they may change what happens, or not, and that is what creates the actual story, to me.

To enforce a ready story onto the players rarely works as well, as giving several plots, situations, to encounter, and/or try to avoid ...

Do that clear things up for you?

Quote from: Catelf;626882Let me explain:
I may be using the word "plot" wrong according to you, but please bear with me.
Plot, to me, is a situation, and a series of tied-in events that will happen.
However, once the Characters encounters those plots, they may change what happens, or not, and that is what creates the actual story, to me.

I would have thought that Plot in RPGs would automatically invoke that definition. Always has for me.

Meta/Mega-Plot however invokes an image of events that players cannot alter...

But I may be atypical, especially on this board.

Quote from: gleichman;626876So they love their own style of playing the game and not really the game itself.

The style of the game put forth in the corebook is not the "real" style of the game, it ONLY comes from published scenarios? Really? That's the position you're taking?

Quote from: J Arcane;626874I don't know anyone who ever even bought a Shadowrun published adventure, let alone ran one.

The folks I know who loved the game all ran their own shadowruns, and they tended to be of a distinctly dungeon/mission structure: "go in this building, find/hack/destroy/explode MacGuffin".

I have bought a few ...
I never ran them "correctly", if at all, though, but i did turn DNA/DOA into a miniature - and rpg-ish scenario once, but with my home-made rules ...

Quote from: TristramEvans;626886The style of the game put forth in the corebook is not the "real" style of the game, it ONLY comes from published scenarios? Really? That's the position you're taking?

The style of a game line certainly is determined by the entire (or at least the majority) of published works- i.e. core, supplement and adventures. That would be what I'd consider the published style of a game line.

What people do or do not do with a subset of the published work is the group's style.

This should be clear to anyone who takes a passing notice of the subject.

Quote from: Catelf;626882Um, the thing you quoted an answered to there, was really directed towards me, so i would understand what "premise" means.

I'm certain he agrees with you, it is just that he used the word "plot" as i had used the word, so that i would understand, but not really as you just used the word ...

Let me explain:
I may be using the word "plot" wrong according to you, but please bear with me.
Plot, to me, is a situation, and a series of tied-in events that will happen.
However, once the Characters encounters those plots, they may change what happens, or not, and that is what creates the actual story, to me.

To enforce a ready story onto the players rarely works as well, as giving several plots, situations, to encounter, and/or try to avoid ...

Do that clear things up for you?

I was not arguing with him, merely elucidating further on my position.  It is the nature of sites like these that everyone begins to take a reply as an argumentative one because they are unaccustomed to conversation.

As for the meaning of plot, as a film student and writer, I am naturally using the traditional definition, which is well described here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_(narrative)

Quote from: gleichman;626884I would have thought that Plot in RPGs would automatically invoke that definition. Always has for me.

Meta/Mega-Plot however invokes an image of events that players cannot alter...

But I may be atypical, especially on this board.

You agree with me in this case?
:jaw-dropping:

Quote from: gleichman;626891The style of a game line certainly is determined by the entire (or at least the majority) of published works- i.e. core, supplement and adventures. That would be what I'd consider the published style of a game line.

So do you consider every book published with the d20 logo to, as a whole, inform what the d20 playstyle should be? Or that if a core game is great, but the company publishes a bunch of crappy adventures it ruins the entire game? "Gamelines" and games are not the same thing. A core rulebook should stand on its own, providing everything needed to play the game. Adventures and supplements are rarely written by the same authors or system designers, are not written in conjunction with the corebook, and often come from 3rd party contributers.

Quote from: TristramEvans;626898So do you consider every book published with the d20 logo to, as a whole, inform what the d20 playstyle should be?

I'd break it up by game line to a degree- Ravenloft vs. whatever. That sort of thing.

Quote from: Catelf;626897You agree with me in this case?
:jaw-dropping:

When people are right, they are right.

I think it's foolish to bring the the concept of  movie or literary definiton of Plot to an RPG as so many attempt to do. An RPG is an interactive creature, and so 'plot' must take that into account, i.e. it must be possible for players to alter it.

I happen to think you're just stating the practical reality of a RPG with your plot definition.

Quote from: gleichman;626900I'd break it up by game line to a degree- Ravenloft vs. whatever. That sort of thing.

There were plenty of d20 products just aimed at a generic D&D 3rd audience, though. And this isn't to mention that larger gamelines will often publish adventures that go completely against the "typical" method of play. Shadowrun presents a pretty specific codified pattern for adventures to take. Following this and  never using tany published adventures, just like Call of Cthulhu and other RPgs with a strong premise as far as what player characters are expected to do is not "ignoring the game to play it in an individual group's style". Its playing the game as written without relying on other people's imaginations to hold one's hand through a campaign.