Quote from: Anon Adderlan;626373It's the ONLY thing that has bearing on the discussion. And we should talking far more about methods than intents.

That is to be the subsequent thread, which I think I mentioned earlier.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;626373These manifestos are great for ideological discussion, but they almost universally lack any statements about how to actually achieve what they describe. So how WOULD a GM achieve all these things the manifesto describes?

Well you can't really decide how to achieve something until you've fully decided what you want to achieve first. That's one of the places we're trying to get to here. Also and importantly a clear, succinct definition of what a GM is rather than reaching for one or two of the hats a GM wears will be handy in getting new gamers on board.

I've one more post to make in the GManifesto, throw that open for discussion, change the ideas around a bit depending on the discussion, and then we get to methods.

Quote from: gleichman;626372You're such a child.

One that lives the past, yet unable to apply it to the present because you've spent so much effort distorting it to meet your personal needs.

Wasn't it your use of the word traditional?  What are traditions, if not grounded in the past!

Quote from: mcbobbo;626394Wasn't it your use of the word traditional?  What are traditions, if not grounded in the past!

Knowledge of the past is wonderful, as long as one doesn't distort it for their own purposes like Benoist does.

His past was not the one I lived through. His is pipe dreams and rose color glasses, a place to hide from reality.

Charming as ever, Brian.

Quote from: gleichman;626398Knowledge of the past is wonderful, as long as one doesn't distort it for their own purposes like Benoist does.

His past was not the one I lived through. His is pipe dreams and rose color glasses, a place to hide from reality.

I don't give two shits about your pissing contest, so please don't drag me into that.

Remember, I brought up Gygax, and I did so specifically to corner your position on whether or not he is a representitive sample of a 'good GM' for a 'traditional RPG'.  Assuming that this is true, it flies in the face of a lot of your own examples.  I could quote the DMG, if it would help, but I think you know what I'm illustrating already.  Either that or you wouldn't be persuaded by it anyway.

Quote from: gleichman;626398His past was not the one I lived through. His is pipe dreams and rose color glasses, a place to hide from reality.

In other words you had a sucky life and are too wrapped up in yourself to believe anyone else's experiences didn't suck as much as yours.

And, I'm sorry, you're perpetuating a fued with Benoist? Seriously? Of all the people on this site? Benoist is one of the most friendly, positive, well-spoken and read fellows here who never fails to contribute something positive to the conversation. You literally have your pick of trolls to chose from here but you've got a chip on your shoulder about him? Wow. Just...wow.

Quote from: TristramEvans;626476In other words you had a sucky life and are too wrapped up in yourself to believe anyone else's experiences didn't suck as much as yours.

And, I'm sorry, you're perpetuating a fued with Benoist? Seriously? Of all the people on this site? Benoist is one of the most friendly, positive, well-spoken and read fellows here who never fails to contribute something positive to the conversation. You literally have your pick of trolls to chose from here but you've got a chip on your shoulder about him? Wow. Just...wow.

"Friendly?"  "Positive?"

Are you sure you're talking about the same guy?  The same guy who makes Pundit look moderate?  

gleichman is a useless attention whore, and I'm ashamed to see this site give him what he comes for again and again, but come on, let's not revise history just to dig at the assclown.  Just ignore him until he cries and goes back to his little hole again.

Quote from: J Arcane;626479"Friendly?"  "Positive?"

Are you sure you're talking about the same guy?  The same guy who makes Pundit look moderate?  

You may have missed the operative word:  "here"

Quote from: TristramEvans;626476And, I'm sorry, you're perpetuating a fued with Benoist? Seriously? Of all the people on this site? Benoist is one of the most friendly, positive, well-spoken and read fellows here who never fails to contribute something positive to the conversation. You literally have your pick of trolls to chose from here but you've got a chip on your shoulder about him? Wow. Just...wow.

Lol wut?

Quote from: Gib;626485Lol wut?

Eh, IME. I suppose YMMV, but all my interactions with him on this site and what of his posts I've read informs the view I expressed. But then, generally speaking, I'd say almost mostly the same about Pundit, ignoring his ongoing Swine and Storygame wars, whereas I know there are people here who belive him "objectivelly the worst person in gaming". So maybe its just simply that I agree with these fellows 7 times out of 10.

Or maybe its just that Benoist has such a cheerful picture with rosy cheeks that I associate him with Dom Deluise.

Quote from: mcbobbo;626482You may have missed the operative word:  "here"

Yeah, Im not familiar with the activities of any poster here elsewhere online besides the ancient history of Big Purple.

You mean like when he asks someone to show them on the doll where the bad DM touched them five times in a single post? Maybe you consider that to that as friendly and positive; however equating bad dming with child molestation and then putting those words in someone else's mouth, multiple times, for years and years on end, i might add, more properly fits my definition of ignorant, insensitive and loathsome. Ymmv, of course.

As for the role of the GM, I think you'll have to wait for my next book.

In general though, the core tenets of my opinion on the matter can be summed up in two phrases: "Premise is better than plot," and "The GM is a world builder, not a storyteller." The role of the GM is to create a scenario and then adjudicate how that scenario responds to the actions of the players. Everything beyond premise is best left emergent, because anything beyond premise and scenario is doomed to fail and thus wastes both player and GM time.  

Remember those two things and you've got it right, in my view.

Quote from: TristramEvans;626487So maybe its just simply that I agree with these fellows 7 times out of 10.

It's that.

One of the greatest faults of mankind is their ability to ignore the sins of people who believe as they do. And who I might add, they share those same sins with.

Quote from: J Arcane;626513In general though, the core tenets of my opinion on the matter can be summed up in two phrases: "Premise is better than plot," and "The GM is a world builder, not a storyteller." The role of the GM is to create a scenario and then adjudicate how that scenario responds to the actions of the players. Everything beyond premise is best left emergent, because anything beyond premise and scenario is doomed to fail and thus wastes both player and GM time.  

Remember those two things and you've got it right, in my view.

"In my view" ... I love those words in cases like this, ....

I'm not sure wether to agree with you or not, because i, as a GM, prefer to use a setting that i already has made up, i already have a sandbox, but sometimes i need to define it further, with plots, NPC's ... and things the Characters only will encounter if they walk down that specific alley, and opens that specific door ... and similar, that will later have effects on the characters if they stay in the area or goes away but comes back just in time ...
Like ...
Someone is ordered to spy on the characters in a city, but that spy is brutally murdered by a serial killer that roams the city for the time being. The characters sleeps at an inn, but the door to the winecellar also leads to the rooms where a Necromancer is planning to raise all the recently dead in the area ... and so on.

So to me, story is very much important, but since i tend to use a sandbox, you may be right as well ...
Hmm ...