The role of the GM in roleplaying games

TristramEvans · February 07, 2013, 04:31:27 PM

Quote from: beermonk;625744Are you retarded?

If you can't figure out how to have fun in YOUR game with YOUR players without someone instructing you how to do it, then perhaps games like Boggle, UNO, and Connect 4 might be a better gateway drug for you before you jump into the real serious and heavy stuff such as RPGs with all their 'rules' and 'odd sided dice' and tough and impenetrable formulas for fun!

OMG! It's so difficult! The fun! How do I haz it?

OMG, lets exclude everyone from the hobby who isn't instantly magically a great DM from the moment they were born!

Catelf · February 07, 2013, 04:34:14 PM

Quote from: The Traveller;625841Okay I understand a little better now.

The GM never uses their power against the group, in that regard it's not even power at all really. If the GM makes bad things happen to the group or kills the group entirely, that is (or should be) all part of bringing the awesome, as explained above.

If a GM sees gaming as an adversarial situation however things are likely to go south sooner rather than later.

I do so like when i manage to explain so that others understand what others are referring to.
It often removes seeming disagreements that only is based on misunderstandings ....

Here, we agree.

Quote from: The Traveller;625841So er, we're in agreement?

Yes, here too.

Quote from: The Traveller;625841Well no. A referee acts as a neutral party working between two or more teams to ensure fair play. Who are the two teams here? There's only the group and the GM. Is the game world, the setting, the other team? But the GM controls that, so the referee controls one entire team?

The more we examine the analogy the more deformed it becomes, so I don't think referee is an adequate description of the role.

Ok, this was directed towards someone else, but i might just as well give my view on it:
A referee
1) Knows the Rules
2) Upholds the Rules(is in a way being a judge)
3) Is Impartial (or is at least supposed to be)

A GM has better share those traits, too, right?

Ok, a GM has other things to care about too, like the plots, the NPC's and such, but those three points is still important.
Or do you disagree there?

TristramEvans · February 07, 2013, 04:37:27 PM

"The GM is there to fetch the beer."
- Paul Mason

The Traveller · February 07, 2013, 05:12:16 PM

Quote from: Catelf;626018A referee
1) Knows the Rules
2) Upholds the Rules(is in a way being a judge)
3) Is Impartial (or is at least supposed to be)

A GM has better share those traits, too, right?

I would say so yes. All except being impartial, the GM can and probably should make decisions which continue the awesome so in that regard at least wouldn't be impartial.

I don't think there's much benefit in getting hung up on the "not a referee" thing, maybe it would be better to say "not just a referee". Some refereeing skills and methods are applied, I've said this from the start, but to describe the GM as a referee isn't helpful, any more than describing the GM as a judge, librarian, researcher, manager, host, or storyteller.

Catelf · February 07, 2013, 05:31:30 PM

Quote from: gleichman;625943Ideally there is never a point when one is acting in anything but one mode. To do so is to corrupt the intent of at least one of the GM's responsibilities.
-snip-
As a side note here, Storygames and Forge theory says that rules should be created and applied controlling when Author Mode can be entered and what can be done where in it- very non-traditional and in my view a different hobby from mine.

I always act as a GM when i GM.
No "Modes" when i GM, to me, the author part is often present, if only a little, even in fights, where the "referee" and antagonist parts really should rule ....
Corrupting the responsibilities?
Not hardly, players usually liked that odd things could happen during a fight, as long as their own capabilities wasn't messed with too much.

Quote from: gleichman;625959That not why it varies from person to person. It varies from person to person because people have different needs, tastes, intelligence levels, and degrees of exposure to the hobby to list but a few things.

I have my own definition for what a GM is, and from that I can define a good one. I've given a high level view of that in this thread. And frankly, as a result I'd label most of the posters at this site as 'Bad GMs'. Very few share my definition however, and they think they're the bee's knees as a result.

That is the nature of this hobby, fragmented and generally speaking made up of underwhelming players, designers and GMs. It's only due to the incompetence being so widely spread that the hobby survives, for fools will still play with fools.

Are you failing to see that you are insulting a lot of people here, and is doing so based on your "definition for what a GM is"?
Or do you not take the term "Bad GM" seriously yourself?
.... or "fools", for that sake?

gleichman · February 07, 2013, 05:42:14 PM

Quote from: Catelf;626059I always act as a GM when i GM.
No "Modes" when i GM, to me, the author part is often present

You may play as you wish. I in turn want no part of it or any game ran as you describe.

Quote from: Catelf;626059Are you failing to see that you are insulting a lot of people here, and is doing so based on your "definition for what a GM is"?

I'm well aware of that.

If they had shown more concern towards me in the past, perhaps I would have returned the favor. But wishes and fishes...

estar · February 07, 2013, 05:42:16 PM

Quote from: The Traveller;625918I do get what you're saying and I do agree to an extent, just what you're saying doesn't encompass the entire role of the GM.

I agree that the typical referee does more than what my definition states. Particularly for campaign preparation. I don't go into that because that excludes tabletop roleplaying at conventions and organized events where there is little or no prep on the part of the referee required.

Beyond what I said you have to start adding stuff like true in all but these cases, except when blah. And so on.

And while gamemaster are indeed doing all these things you, myself and other mentioned. The core that sets tabletop roleplaying from all other forms of gaming and other forms of roleplaying is

a group of players sitting around their characters in a setting with their actions adjudicated by a referee.

Catelf · February 07, 2013, 05:46:21 PM

Quote from: The Traveller;626039I would say so yes. All except being impartial, the GM can and probably should make decisions which continue the awesome so in that regard at least wouldn't be impartial.

I don't think there's much benefit in getting hung up on the "not a referee" thing, maybe it would be better to say "not just a referee". Some refereeing skills and methods are applied, I've said this from the start, but to describe the GM as a referee isn't helpful, any more than describing the GM as a judge, librarian, researcher, manager, host, or storyteller.

Ok, so how about building on this list, then?

A GM
1) Knows the Rules
2) Upholds the Rules(is in a way being a judge)
3) Is kind of Impartial (or is at least supposed to be), but may be partial towards the Game Experience.

The Impartial/Partial part i only added as a reminder, because it still has something important, but that could probably be formulated better ....
Like ...
Being impartial between gamer groups and between players in the same group ...
perhaps?

estar · February 07, 2013, 05:47:28 PM

Quote from: The Traveller;625966Why would anyone take what you have to say about the hobby seriously after a comment like that.

It is a lonely life, the way of the true gamemaster...

The Traveller · February 07, 2013, 05:50:09 PM

Quote from: estar;626071a group of players sitting around their characters in a setting with their actions adjudicated by a referee.

You haven't actually offered any rebuttals as to why the role of the GM shouldn't be described as a referee though. I've made it clear why I think there are good reasons to avoid the term, and so far the main response has been because tradition. This is silly.

The Traveller · February 07, 2013, 05:53:05 PM

Quote from: Catelf;626072Ok, so how about building on this list, then?

A GM
1) Knows the Rules
2) Upholds the Rules(is in a way being a judge)
3) Is kind of Impartial (or is at least supposed to be), but may be partial towards the Game Experience.

Those only deal with one or two of the elements of a roleplaying game though, we can't build on half a foundation. If you read through the couple of posts where I lay out the relationship of the GM to some of these elements, it can be seen that there's a lot more involved. One more of those posts yet to come incidentally.

Catelf · February 07, 2013, 05:55:01 PM

Quote from: gleichman;626070You may play as you wish. I in turn want no part of it or any game ran as you describe.

I'm well aware of that.

If they had shown more concern towards me in the past, perhaps I would have returned the favor. But wishes and fishes...

Hmm ...
But then, you do not know how it is to play with me as the GM.

Perhaps you would like it, perhaps not.
As i think it was you yourself who pointed out:
Different people GM's in different ways, depending on preference, skill, and knowledge.
But here i have to add, that that does not neccesarily make them bad GM's.
Also, many has to learn how to do it, in order to get better.

Catelf · February 07, 2013, 05:57:47 PM

Quote from: The Traveller;626079Those only deal with one or two of the elements of a roleplaying game though, we can't build on half a foundation. If you read through the couple of posts where I lay out the relationship of the GM to some of these elements, it can be seen that there's a lot more involved. One more of those posts yet to come incidentally.

Yet another case of misunderstanding, i see.

With "building on", i meant "add more things to this list".

gleichman · February 07, 2013, 06:09:38 PM

Quote from: Catelf;626081Hmm ...
But then, you do not know how it is to play with me as the GM.

I know enough.

Catelf · February 07, 2013, 06:12:44 PM

Hmm ...
Perhaps something like this:

A GM
1) Is a part of the Group, but is not like the Players.
2) Knows the Rules
3) Upholds the Rules(is in a way being a judge)
4) Is kind of Impartial (or is at least supposed to be), but may be partial towards the Game Experience.
5) Prepares the Setting, and knows the Setting (enough, at least), and/or is able to come up with a Setting on the fly.
6) Prepares the storylines/plots for the game, and/or is able to come up with plots on the fly.
7) Prepares the NPC's for the game, and/or is able to come up with NPC's on the fly.

The role of the GM in roleplaying games

TristramEvans

TristramEvans